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Thread: A Libertarian Dilemma

  1. #1

    Exclamation A Libertarian Dilemma

    A Libertarian Dilemma

    http://ericpetersautos.com/2017/02/1...arian-dilemma/

    By eric - February 17, 2017

    Not in my Backyard!

    But what about when it’s in your neighbor’s back yard? What is the Libertarian attitude – and response – toward something you don’t like being built on someone else’s property?

    The question contains its own answer.

    It’s one I had to come face to face with recently, too. Proof of my Libertarian pudding, you might say.

    I think I passed. You tell me – and then tell me how you’d react.

    Here’s the set-up:

    I moved to a rural area, one with just one stoplight in the whole county – and no zoning laws, if you can imagine such a thing still exists anywhere in America today.

    It is not necessary to supplicate the local Gertrude Schlotz-Klink before one is allowed to build a shed, or put a roof your house or cut a tree down on one’s own property. You can do literally whatever you want to do with any tree that’s on your property.

    Italics added for the necessary emphasis.

    Shoot the tree, if you like. Paint it red, drive a truck into it. Carve it into a 50 foot high Trump (or Hillary) statue.

    So long as it’s on your property, it is considered – rightly – your tree. Do with it as you see fit.

    Do with your land as you see fit.

    Including sell it to someone who may do something some of your neighbors may not exactly like with it.

    Such as sell to an evil corporation – Dollar General, in this case – and subject your soon-to-be ex-neighbors to Grubby Commerce or some other such.

    Things change – and sometimes, not the way we want them to.

    Like the fact that there will soon be a Dollar General store about a mile down the road from me. Ugh. It will be the first corporate commercial presence within literally a dozen miles of my place and without question it will change the area’s character in ways that may benefit some but will absolutely annoy others – including me.

    Neither consideration being actionable – insofar as taking action against others. As by appealing to the government to thwart the building of the store, for instance.

    If you’re a Libertarian – and practice your espoused principles.

    As a Libertarian, I have the option to move. Or stay – and accept the changing topography.

    Do I like that there will be what – to me – is an ugly, low-rent, box store purveyor of container-shipped cheap Chinese crap just a mile down the road from me? That traffic (and noise) will almost certainly increase? That “the element” – people I’d rather not see or have to interact with – will now be attracted to my general vicinity?

    No.

    It makes my teeth hurt.

    I am saddened to see the rural/local character of my little hamlet changing. I am selfishly annoyed by the coming of what, to me, is something as unwanted. I moved to here to get away from everything the Dollar Store represents. I had hoped to never see box store bleakness again, unless I drove a dozen or more miles down the road.

    I worry that the presence of this latter-day KMart only a mile away will decrease the value of my place – leaving aside intangible quality of life/aesthetic considerations.

    There goes the neighborhood.

    I also worry that its presence may increase the value of my place – as the area becomes more agreeable to “city” types who up to now wouldn’t want to live out here because it’s too far away from everything and not convenient.

    Now it will be more so.

    My taxes may go up.

    Sigh.

    Worst case – from my point of view – the Dollar General will succeed. And that success will cause more interest in commercial development and that will in time turn this area into the very thing I moved 240 miles down the road to get away from: A replication of Northern Virginia.

    That really makes my teeth hurt.

    But I won’t join some of my neighbors in the rictus cry of authoritarian collectivism: There ought to be a law!

    Specifically, zoning laws.

    That is the reaction (and intention) of several people I know who are – like me – not happy about the General but – unlike me – are willing to throw the concept of property rights in the Woods.

    The danger of this ought to be apparent – but it makes no impression.

    If zoning laws are passed limiting to whom (and for what purpose) X may sell his property and for what purpose, it follows inevitably that Y and Z will be encumbered by a roster of additional restrictions, relentlessly expanding, until the once surprisingly free rural southern Virginia community becomes as suffocatingly corseted as any Northern Virginia suburb.

    Gertrude Schlotz-Klink
    slouches toward Bethlehem . . .

    Forget cutting down your tree. There will no longer be any such thing as your tree – whether (nominally) on “your” property or not. No more sheds without permission. And firing off a gun in the backyard? Might as well put the SWAT team on speed dial now.

    You’ll continue to pay the mortgage – and the property taxes – but your neighbors, as expressed and enforced via Schlotz-Klink, will determine how you’re allowed to use “your” land.

    No thanks. Give me Dollar General instead.

    Or rather, give me liberty – and respect for my property rights. In return, I promise to respect the property rights of my neighbors, even when I am not pleased with what they’ve decided to do with their property.

    Italics added, again.

    For what, by now, ought to be obvious reasons
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11



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  3. #2
    Especially concur with the bit about property taxes. It'd be nice if you were 'locked in' at a property value until ready to sell, but that damned property assessor always seems to see something in your property that you don't.

    About 3 years back I lived in a trailer home, and once year the county assessor comes and decides my property value is increasing because someone decides to build a few gas stations at a nearby intersection. Mind you, this was dumpy old trailer built in the 80s when they were apparently making them out of plywood and Styrofoam, and it's value had been depreciating annually (as it should for a home that's falling apart), until something entirely beyond my control suddenly made it more valuable than a lot on the Vegas Strip.

    So I moved. And wouldn't you know it? That property assessor again found out where I live, and so did those damned retailers.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 02-18-2017 at 03:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  4. #3
    Agree with the OP

    There are however some justifiable restraints on property use in the interest of preventing damage to others' property.

    e.g. guy decides to burn down his own house for kicks, putting neighbor's houses at serious risk

    The neighbors shouldn't have to wait until the fire actually spreads to their houses to do something; preemptive action should be permitted.

    ...just an extension of the logic of self-defense.

    Of course, as in self-defense, it's difficult to draw the line, to say just how imminent the threat must be to justify the preemptive use of force.

  5. #4
    You either put up with having a dollar general in your back yard, or you sell your property and move.
    I don't see how this is a dilemma at all for anyone that considers themselves a libertarian...

    I have no right to tell someone what they can do with their own property.
    The fact that the government thinks it has the right to do so is just one the reasons I hate government.
    The fact that people encourage government to make things like zoning laws is one the reasons I hate people.
    I moved to the middle of nowhere in the mountains in east TN, 40mins from town, and they just put a dollar general in 15 mins away from me too..

  6. #5
    The problem is that all is already lost. As the OP stated those types of properties are few and far between. It is just a matter of time before they are all gone. Why are zoning laws all over the country already? If you think you can hold onto that little piece of heaven on earth you are disillusioned. It is only a matter of time. Holding to your principles is good in theory but nothing will stop what some people call progress. Wolves always first appear in sheep's clothing.

  7. #6
    I feel his pain. Our little town has changed a lot since we moved out here and, in some ways, not for the better. When we bought this house, our town had one red light, one grocery store, a used tire store, a few little antique shops in town, and a Waffle House. If you looked at before and after photos, the only thing that would tip you off that it's the same town would be the used tire store but the $#@!s are trying to get it shut down. I love that tire store. Is it an eyesore? Absolutely. But it's been in the same family for generations and the people who work there have saved my butt a time or two. Plus, they post all the town obits (yes, obits) on their sign. I'm gonna be bummed if it gets shut down before I die. It's the last bit of character left in this place and I cringe when I hear people complaining about how it brings down the town facade.
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    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  8. #7
    Meh. We've got Dollar Generals all over rural Tennessee. Then again the Dollar General headquarters are in Nashville. If you see a Walmart pop up, then you're in trouble!
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #8
    Dollar General is based here. I love shopping there, and I'm happy they are so convenient.
    #NashvilleStrong

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  11. #9
    $#@! happens. Not much you can do about it. Get as rural as you can, but realize eventually "progress" will encroach on you. I think about the best you could do is get a bunch of luddites to come together and buy a town. Create a charter that reads "no corporate franchise within town limits" or some such. Still, it wouldn't keep someone from putting a hog farm abutting the township limits.

  12. #10
    It seems that the only recourse here is to not shop there.. hope the other locals also do not shop there and let it fail via free market economics.. hope it fails.. organize and make it fail.
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    It seems that the only recourse here is to not shop there.. hope the other locals also do not shop there and let it fail via free market economics.. hope it fails.. organize and make it fail.
    My exact thoughts. That would be how the free market works, too.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    $#@! happens. Not much you can do about it. Get as rural as you can, but realize eventually "progress" will encroach on you. I think about the best you could do is get a bunch of luddites to come together and buy a town. Create a charter that reads "no corporate franchise within town limits" or some such. Still, it wouldn't keep someone from putting a hog farm abutting the township limits.
    Or go where people do not want to be.

    Thankfully, I happen to enjoy what most people hate, snow and cold and long winters.

    That leads to very slow growth and "progress".

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Or go where people do not want to be.

    Thankfully, I happen to enjoy what most people hate, snow and cold and long winters.

    That leads to very slow growth and "progress".
    And there is that.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Meh. We've got Dollar Generals all over rural Tennessee. Then again the Dollar General headquarters are in Nashville. If you see a Walmart pop up, then you're in trouble!
    These "Dollar" stores are to Wal Marx what Huddle House is to Waffle House.

    A even cheaper knock off of a cheap and tawdry original.

    Most of the supply chain for the these outfits (and there are a $#@!load of them anymore, Dollar General, Dollar Tree, Ocean State Job Lots, Big Lots...) are nothing more than the cast offs and unsolds and defectives and remaindered items scrounged from bigger box stores.

  17. #15
    they ought to rename them all.. cheap $#@! you don't really need.. but cheap
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Meh. We've got Dollar Generals all over rural Tennessee.
    I live in rural TN, what bothers me about the DG they put in is that they have so many bright lights and they leave them on all night.
    It is a 15min drive there, and its lights are so bright it is a glow on the horizon from house. :/
    I can no longer shoot night sky photographs of the northwest sky, they are filled with DG light pollution now...
    It is nice to not have to drive 40mins to town when I run out of sugar, but I wish they turn their damn lights off when they are closed.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyRevolution View Post
    light pollution
    Now that's original.

    Wonder how long until this phrase finds its way into litigation.....

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyRevolution View Post
    I live in rural TN, what bothers me about the DG they put in is that they have so many bright lights and they leave them on all night.
    It is a 15min drive there, and its lights are so bright it is a glow on the horizon from house. :/
    I can no longer shoot night sky photographs of the northwest sky, they are filled with DG light pollution now...
    It is nice to not have to drive 40mins to town when I run out of sugar, but I wish they turn their damn lights off when they are closed.
    One thing I wouldn't be using is sugar from Dollar General.

    If you suspect there is a toxic dark side to getting your home essentials for cheap, you might be right. In early February, the Louisville, Kentucky Business Insider published an expose on Family Dollar, 99 Cents Only, Dollar Tree, and Dollar General stores that states that products sold at both stores had, “up to 81-percent toxic” products out of 100. Sadly, this is not the first time that these dollar stores have been sued, cited, or fined for having toxic substances in their products.

    The latest research on the toxic levels of merchandise sold at Family Dollar and Dollar general was spear-headed by The Campaign for Healthier Solutions. The organization tested stores to complete their study and found 133 of those 164 randomly selected products contained toxic substances.
    http://www.inquisitr.com/1830493/81-...es-2015-study/
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  22. #19
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    The libertarian solution...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(law)

    A restrictive covenant is a private agreement between land owners where one party will restrict the use of its land in some way for the benefit of another's land. Restrictive covenants, once agreed between the parties, are placed in the title deeds to the property.
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  23. #20
    The term light pollution has been around for awhile. Funny about the Dollar General. About 6 months ago one went up about 10 miles down the road (I live very rural in PA). I thought to myself why would they put a store way out here? But seeing form the posts it is common. Must be a business plan they see a market in. Funny how the mom and pop one stop store in my village (the only business there) doesn't bother me but the DG does.

    Now to property rights. Is it ok for my neighbor to sell his farm and someone open an amusement park/chemical factory/waste treatment plant ect. many things can impact a whole community. Do people have the right to put restrictions on usage of property in a community?

    I believe they do but can't say where that line is drawn. Impacting an area affecting neighbors is a violation of your rights too. But where is the line. My neighbor burning a tire with smell and smoke one day vs burning tires daily. A birthday party with loud noise and music at 1am vs holding regular guitar jams at 3am.

    I believe property owners have a right to respect from each other and that can be violated. Whether I believe in zoning or not there is a line at some point. Guess I'll know it when I see it.

    Seriously, are there NO zoning restrictions where you live?
    "Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" ~ Kenny Rogers, RIP


    "When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." ~ anonymous


    “The fate of all mankind I see
    Is in the hands of fools” ~ King Crimson

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by sam1952 View Post

    Seriously, are there NO zoning restrictions where you live?
    Absolutely not or I wouldn't have bought property.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    The libertarian solution...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(law)

    A restrictive covenant is a private agreement between land owners where one party will restrict the use of its land in some way for the benefit of another's land. Restrictive covenants, once agreed between the parties, are placed in the title deeds to the property.
    http://www.mylawyer.co.uk/how-restri...-A76052D76388/
    Got to read this after I posted and makes a lot of sense. Of course there are impacting issues that can arise but I like this as a start. Am guessing works out great till one hold out whether reasonable or not. Soooo zoning laws and the ball starts rolling
    "Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" ~ Kenny Rogers, RIP


    "When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." ~ anonymous


    “The fate of all mankind I see
    Is in the hands of fools” ~ King Crimson

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Absolutely not or I wouldn't have bought property.
    As much as I love where I live, you can burn, shoot, cut as you see fit. there are setbacks for building, perk tests and requirements for septic systems (some of them being different depending on acreage owned). Nothing, wow.
    "Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" ~ Kenny Rogers, RIP


    "When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." ~ anonymous


    “The fate of all mankind I see
    Is in the hands of fools” ~ King Crimson

  27. #24
    Even without any zoning ordinances.. guberment creeps in.. building codes.. state and national
    It's just another reason I hunt for vintage houses. In the south, if a building has been in place for around a hundred years, it's built to withstand hurricanes, no code needed.
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    One thing I wouldn't be using is sugar from Dollar General.
    Thanks for the heads up, I don't shop their often, but I did buy sugar and breadcrumbs from them when I ran short making stuff for a party.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    One thing I wouldn't be using is sugar from Dollar General.


    http://www.inquisitr.com/1830493/81-...es-2015-study/
    I don't buy sugar from any store. That said I have found a lot of good products from Dollar Stores and like having them close by.
    There is no spoon.

  31. #27

    Post

    This is a dilemma that will eventually touch everyone, unless...
    1) You can afford to buy half the county.
    2) You live in the city & just don't care.

    Similar situation with me... the city we moved away from is making it's way closer.

    ... & yes, light pollution... star gazing is being compromised as well.

    http://darksky.org/light-pollution/

    https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#...ayers=B0TFFFFF



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