Where's My Check?

[navy-vet]

https://futurism.com/elon-musk-autom...-basic-income/

[navy-vet]

https://futurism.com/images/universa...und-the-world/

[jllundqu]

I've started a couple threads on this topic in the past... no one really wants to discuss. I find it incredibly interesting and worth discussing. Automation, AI, Drone Tech, Driverless cars, etc.... these will make a sizeable portion of the population 'obsolete' as the twilight zone would say. The thought of future economics and UBI or "mincome" as they refer to it needs to be discussed.

[agitator]

I thought we already gave checks to those that don't work.

[CaseyJones]

Brazilian city experiments with universal basic income

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brazilian-c...income-1606711

A small seaside city in Brazil has decided to hand out a universal basic income to all its 150,000 residents. Every person in Marica is given a monthly cash stipend which they can spend as they wish.

Washington Quaqua, the city's mayor from 2008-2016, introduced the Basic Citizenship Income (RBC) three years ago. Quaqua described Marica as "a laboratory for the Brazilian left" and "a town that knows how to redistribute its riches."

The former mayor is an ardent supporter of Che Guevara and Marica is a socialist bastion in an increasingly right-leaning Brazil. President Temer has embraced a right-wing agenda since taking office in August 2016 after the impeachment of left-wing leader Dilma Rousseff.

In Marica the universal basic income was initially only granted to the city's poorest residents, an estimated 35,000 people. Last year the programme was extended to all residents. Everyone living in Marica receives a monthly stipend of $R10 (£2.61). Poor families will be given an extra R$85 (£22.21) per month.

Quaqua's successor Fabiano Horta, of the left-wing Workers' Party, has said he will increase the monthly stipend to $R100 (£26.11) for all Marica residents. Horta believes the programme will stimulate the local economy and create job opportunities.

Opposition politician Filippe Poubel criticised the plan, arguing that it will backfire and that residents will become addicted to welfare.

"People want to work, they want to earn their income with dignity. They would be a lot happier if the mayor would create jobs and offer them decent hospital care," he commented.

Marica is not the only place to introduce a universal basic income. Finland launched a pilot scheme in January to pay its unemployed citizens €560 (£480) every month.

[jllundqu]

And just where, pray tell, do they intend to get all this free money? lol

Care to guess?

[Anti Federalist]

I've started a couple threads on this topic in the past... no one really wants to discuss. I find it incredibly interesting and worth discussing. Automation, AI, Drone Tech, Driverless cars, etc.... these will make a sizeable portion of the population 'obsolete' as the twilight zone would say. The thought of future economics and UBI or "mincome" as they refer to it needs to be discussed.

I've thought long and hard about this as well.

I see nothing good in any of this: many people place their own worth on what they do and accomplish.

In the coming nightmare we are rushing headlong into, there is nothing that cannot be done better, faster, cheaper or longer by robotics and AI.

Nothing that makes life worth living, including art, music, sex, love and companionship will be off limits to being supplanted by AI.

UBI will be a speed bump on this road to hell on earth, but will not slow it down.

Imagine how tightly controlled every human being left will be: every UBI credit will subject to scrutiny, every move you make will be under surveillance (it mostly already is).

Combine this with the now proved technologies of bio-engineering, where you can now essentially manufacture a new person in a lab, and life extension technologies once hatched.

What then? Do our robot overlords engineer set lifespan limits so that we die at specific dates? Or, perhaps even worse, do we get dragged along into a life leading hundreds of years to serve some function as yet unknown, driven to madness by living far beyond the realm of years the brain and soul can handle and process?

[navy-vet]

I've thought long and hard about this as well.

I see nothing good in any of this: many people place their own worth on what they do and accomplish.

In the coming nightmare we are rushing headlong into, there is nothing that cannot be done better, faster, cheaper or longer by robotics and AI.

Nothing that makes life worth living, including art, music, sex, love and companionship will be off limits to being supplanted by AI.

UBI will be a speed bump on this road to hell on earth, but will not slow it down.

Imagine how tightly controlled every human being left will be: every UBI credit will subject to scrutiny, every move you make will be under surveillance (it mostly already is).

Combine this with the now proved technologies of bio-engineering, where you can now essentially manufacture a new person in a lab, and life extension technologies once hatched.

What then? Do our robot overlords engineer set lifespan limits so that we die at specific dates? Or, perhaps even worse, do we get dragged along into a life leading hundreds of years to serve some function as yet unknown, driven to madness by living far beyond the realm of years the brain and soul can handle and process?

We might see an integration of humans and AI.
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/13/elon-...ce-robots.html

[navy-vet]

Talk about a brave new world....

[dannno]

I've started a couple threads on this topic in the past... no one really wants to discuss. I find it incredibly interesting and worth discussing. Automation, AI, Drone Tech, Driverless cars, etc.... these will make a sizeable portion of the population 'obsolete' as the twilight zone would say. The thought of future economics and UBI or "mincome" as they refer to it needs to be discussed.

lol, farming technologies made people largely obsolete on the farm and where did that get us? EVERYWHERE!!! We abolished slavery. Now only like 2% of the population grows food, and that leaves 98% of the population to build houses, build sewage systems, build household appliances, build cars, etc, etc, etc..

So what happens when those thing become automated?

Well, everything will be really cheap. People will offer other types of services. Maybe you can give somebody a massage or shine their shoes or make a painting or some nice art work or watch their kids or their pets and in return get a months worth of rent. Maybe three massages will get you enough money to get by for the entire month.

[newbitech]

Rather than forcing governments to issue some other form of fiat, I believe automation will help folks understand the concept of money. So rather than getting some free fiat tokens to buy stuff, folks will start to exchange things with real value. Time currency would be my pick. Easy to covert between man hours and machine hours since machine hours will be fixed based on good or service. Man hours to be negotiated. Could easily back by hard assets as well.

1 gram gold = 1 man hour negotiated for machine hours.

[dannno]

Rather than forcing governments to issue some other form of fiat, I believe automation will help folks understand the concept of money. So rather than getting some free fiat tokens to buy stuff, folks will start to exchange things with real value. Time currency would be my pick. Easy to covert between man hours and machine hours since machine hours will be fixed based on good or service. Man hours to be negotiated. Could easily back by hard assets as well.

1 gram gold = 1 man hour negotiated for machine hours.

Not all man hours are equal, that sounds too much like a mandate. Although I imagine in practice it would end up being like, "hey, I'll give you 5 man hours if you do 2 man hours of IT work.." or "hey, I'll give you 2 man hours if you do 4 hours of watching my kids while my wife and I go on a date"

[jllundqu]

I've thought long and hard about this as well.

I see nothing good in any of this: many people place their own worth on what they do and accomplish.

In the coming nightmare we are rushing headlong into, there is nothing that cannot be done better, faster, cheaper or longer by robotics and AI.

Nothing that makes life worth living, including art, music, sex, love and companionship will be off limits to being supplanted by AI.

UBI will be a speed bump on this road to hell on earth, but will not slow it down.

Imagine how tightly controlled every human being left will be: every UBI credit will subject to scrutiny, every move you make will be under surveillance (it mostly already is).

Combine this with the now proved technologies of bio-engineering, where you can now essentially manufacture a new person in a lab, and life extension technologies once hatched.

What then? Do our robot overlords engineer set lifespan limits so that we die at specific dates? Or, perhaps even worse, do we get dragged along into a life leading hundreds of years to serve some function as yet unknown, driven to madness by living far beyond the realm of years the brain and soul can handle and process?

I will be a part of the Luddite Rebellion. I will resist and attempt to live a simple life, on my farm. As parts of humanity merge with machine, as Elon Musk and others would have us to, for some type of pseudo-immortality... I will live and die by the 'old' ways. There will be many like us who simply want to live and die as man. My wife and I were talking about this yesterday. She is confident that a large portion of humanity will not be tempted or swayed by such false realities. Nothing can stop AI and automation and the resulting disruptions, but there is more to this future equation than we think... I give us percentage of us a fighting chance.

[jllundqu]

lol, farming technologies made people largely obsolete on the farm and where did that get us? EVERYWHERE!!! We abolished slavery. Now only like 2% of the population grows food, and that leaves 98% of the population to build houses, build sewage systems, build household appliances, build cars, etc, etc, etc..

So what happens when those thing become automated?

Well, everything will be really cheap. People will offer other types of services. Maybe you can give somebody a massage or shine their shoes or make a painting or some nice art work or watch their kids or their pets and in return get a months worth of rent. Maybe three massages will get you enough money to get by for the entire month.

I agree the future is not as dark and dreary as some futurists would have us believe. I need to read up on economics because I don't know that future economies will look anything like they do today. With automation and AI, things will indeed become cheap... still I don't know how UBI would even function

[navy-vet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZEJ4OJTgg8
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jp3OhC3NoMk

[phill4paul]

Well, everything will be really cheap. People will offer other types of services. Maybe you can give somebody a massage or shine their shoes or make a painting or some nice art work or watch their kids or their pets and in return get a months worth of rent. Maybe three massages will get you enough money to get by for the entire month.

And when the machine does all of this? Then what?

[jllundqu]

And when the machine does all of this? Then what?

I think people will still be involved because they ENJOY it. People will ENJOY making art, music, giving massages, farming, etc.

[dannno]

And when the machine does all of this? Then what?

I suppose these machines will require some maintenance.. I guess people can signup to do maintenance on the machines a few days a year, get their paycheck, and pay for everything they need.

Then the rest of the year they will probably do stuff and trade stuff they enjoy doing, like art, music, gardening, shamanism or whatever.

[newbitech]

Not all man hours are equal, that sounds too much like a mandate. Although I imagine in practice it would end up being like, "hey, I'll give you 5 man hours if you do 2 man hours of IT work.." or "hey, I'll give you 2 man hours if you do 4 hours of watching my kids while my wife and I go on a date"

that's why i said

Man hours to be negotiated.

But yeah that's exactly how it would be (and pretty much is now). The concept for practicality in the machine world is that machine hours are not negotiated at all since presumably machine hours can be precisely measured in terms of energy spent (Joules).

[LibForestPaul]

This is double speak. There is no fear of automation. Never in the past, and not now.
universal basic income is doublespeak for max allowed resources. TBTB are attempting to limit what resources those at the bottom may consume.
Less consumption at the bottom allows Al Gore lots more carbon credits to fly around espousing climate controls.

[Schifference]

A few years ago RPF thought: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...n+creates+jobs

[angelatc]

I think people will still be involved because they ENJOY it. People will ENJOY making art, music, giving massages, farming, etc.

I think that when you take work away from humans, they lose their sense of purpose. The midwest is full of drunks and junkies in no small part due to a lack of employment.

[angelatc]

... machines are learning to chemically program humans. The machines are learning how to adjust our rewards to maximize addiction. There is no logical end to this. Once machines learn hypnosis (and they can), we work for them.

Dopamine Labs slings tools to boost and reduce app addiction

“The dopamine api is a tool that allows any app to become addictive,” said Brown. “The premise is really straightforward… people don’t just love that burst of dopamine they get from a notification, it changes the wiring of the brain.”

What the two neuroscientists have ultimately sussed out is a way to manage the delivery of “rewards” in apps in a manner that encourages repeat visits.

[TheTexan]

If people want to get checks from the government, they should have to work for it, and do something useful

Like working for the TSA