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Thread: Marijuana Prices Are Plunging, and You're Not Going to Be Happy With the Reason Why

  1. #1

    Marijuana Prices Are Plunging, and You're Not Going to Be Happy With the Reason Why

    https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/...youre-not.aspx

    The marijuana industry was one of the brightest stories in an otherwise chaotic 2016.

    Heading into November, residents in nine states were set to vote on various recreational and medical cannabis initiatives and amendments. With the exception of Arizona, which had its recreational-marijuana initiative rejected by just 2%, it was a clean sweep for pot in every other state. Two other states, Ohio and Pennsylvania, approved medical-cannabis laws entirely through the legislative process (i.e., without putting a measure on the ballot for residents to vote on). By year's end, 28 states were now considered medical cannabis-legal, while the number of recreational-pot states had doubled to eight.

    The dollar figures behind pot have also been enormous. ArcView estimates that legal marijuana sales hit $6.9 billion in 2016 and that they could continue to grow by approximately 30% through the end of the decade. With an estimated 87% of marijuana sales ($46 billion) still tied to the black market, there's an ample opportunity for legal sales to continue surging higher.
    Marijuana prices are plunging for a potentially scary reason

    But beneath this rapidly growing facade is an industry that could soon find itself in deep trouble if certain market dynamics continue to deteriorate.

    As Forbes reported last week, wholesale marijuana prices are plunging in legal-marijuana markets. According to CannaSaver.com CEO Brian Shapiro, wholesale prices plummeted 60% in 2016, from $2,500 per pound to just $1,000.

    In Washington state, the decline in marijuana prices was even more pronounced, albeit over a longer timeframe, according to BDS Analytics. In August 2014, just a month after recreational marijuana became available in Washington's pot dispensaries, the average selling price per gram was nearly $25, though the amount of marijuana being produced was minimal. A year later, the price had fallen to roughly $10 a gram, as more than 3 million grams were produced. By October 2016, the price had fallen to approximately $6 per gram, while production had increased to well over 6 million grams.

    What's particularly worrisome about the drop in wholesale marijuana prices is that it's an entirely supply-side issue. Growers are flooding the market with cannabis at a faster rate than consumers can buy it, despite growth in the demand side, causing prices to plunge.

    But it's not the existing businesses that have created this mess. Instead, Douglas Brown of Contact High Communications noted in his interview with Forbes that new, larger entrants into the growing side of the equation are responsible for flooding the market with pot. Pro-legalization enthusiasts have often shunned the idea of allowing big business into the marijuana industry for fear that small businesses would be squeezed out. It would appear that's exactly what's happening to the few states where recreational weed is legal.
    Big business is pushing its weight around in the cannabis industry

    If the price per pound of marijuana continues to fall, it could be great news for consumers, but it would be horrific news for marijuana businesses and potentially even the state governments that pushed for the legalization of recreational cannabis.

    At $1,000 per wholesale pound, as reported by CannaSaver.com, marijuana businesses are already seeing their margins pinched. The only two solutions in response to lower wholesale prices are to try to cut costs with advanced new growing technologies, which often mean an initial investment before cost savings are recognized, or to win the volume game. Many of these larger players have chosen the latter by flooding the market with pot and piling on the profits even with lower margins.

    But it's not a fair fight. Because the federal government maintains a Schedule 1 status on marijuana, signifying that it has no medical benefits and is thus illegal, pot businesses are often unable to gain access to basic banking services such as a checking account or line of credit. This situation leaves many smaller dispensaries and grow farms to solely deal with cash, which is both a security risk and an inhibitor of growth.

    Big businesses don't have this problem. They usually have deep enough pockets that they can survive pushing wholesale prices and margins significantly lower and driving out their competition. If there are fewer small-business growers, then the remaining big businesses can throttle back production and eventually raise their prices.
    State governments are concerned, too

    In the interim, the plunge in wholesale pot prices is also concerning to state governments. Because states such as Colorado and Washington rely on the total sales of marijuana products to generate revenue, lower prices could lead to less in tax revenues collected despite growing public demand for marijuana products. If prices were to continue falling, it could necessitate a look at tying marijuana taxes to volume grown or sold, as opposed to the actual dollar figure of what the consumer purchases.

    California, for example, will be taxing growers on a volume basis once the infrastructure of the industry is up and running. Prop 64 established a cultivation tax of $9.25 per ounce on flowers and $2.75 per ounce on marijuana leaves. California's volume-based tax could become more popular if pot prices keep falling.

    For investors, falling wholesale prices are a mixed bag. On one hand, lower margins are never a good thing for businesses, meaning marijuana stocks could feel a pricing power pinch across the board. However, one of the bigger issues for investors at the moment is that there aren't many publicly traded investment opportunities involved in the marijuana industry that offer real promise. Industry consolidation and the elimination of smaller players could create that handful of marijuana stocks that allow investors to finally participate in pot's rapid growth.

    Moving forward, wholesale costs are worth paying very close attention to if you've entertained the idea of investing in the marijuana industry.



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  3. #2
    anyone who expected Black Market Prices and Profits continue in a open market was foolish.

    Falling prices was the first thing I noticed.
    even a state lowered taxes,, how often does that happen?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #3
    "As Forbes reported last week, wholesale marijuana prices are plunging in legal-marijuana markets. According to CannaSaver.com CEO Brian Shapiro, wholesale prices plummeted 60% in 2016, from $2,500 per pound to just $1,000."

    Still way out of bounds compared to the $90 lbs in the 70s.. anyone else remember 4 finger dime bags?
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post

    Still way out of bounds compared to the $90 lbs in the 70s.. anyone else remember 4 finger dime bags?
    dang,, I'm Pepperidge Farms

    Though qualities have improved. I am liking the direction it is going.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post

    Still way out of bounds compared to the $90 lbs in the 70s.. anyone else remember 4 finger dime bags?
    That's $440 or so, in today's "dollars".

  7. #6
    Ummmmmm....why am I not going to be happy with this? Oh right, that's a headline from a MSM story that wants people to freak out about the fact that marijuana being legal means more people will grow it. But that also means that Mexican drug cartels will no longer be able to make money on it. So the downside is......?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  8. #7
    the point is the small growers are being shoved out by big money suppliers
    and eventually it will end up like everything with 5 brands and 4 flavors
    look at a dispensary now and they have over 100 strains
    let this continue and after the small guys are gone the prices and taxes will go up again

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    "As Forbes reported last week, wholesale marijuana prices are plunging in legal-marijuana markets. According to CannaSaver.com CEO Brian Shapiro, wholesale prices plummeted 60% in 2016, from $2,500 per pound to just $1,000."

    Still way out of bounds compared to the $90 lbs in the 70s.. anyone else remember 4 finger dime bags?
    You could still buy $100 lbs in the year 2000, believe it or not, if you bought 100 lbs.. it was Mexican brick weed though. Most of the time it was of really poor quality, one time it was surprisingly VERY good quality, but I did not purchase from that venue very often because most people in my circle were getting the good stuff and had no time for seeds. They actually preferred to buy $200-$300 ounces of the good stuff compared to $50 or $60 ounces for the stuff that came across the border.

    I wasn't around in the 70s but from what I heard there was a lot of crappy herb, however, there was also a lot of good herb as well, being grown mostly in northern california and also being brought in from asian countries like Thailand. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of price discrepancy for quality back then but I haven't heard that there was either.
    Last edited by dannno; 02-12-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You could still buy $100 lbs in the year 2000, believe it or not, if you bought 100 lbs.. it was Mexican brick weed though. Most of the time it was of really poor quality, one time it was surprisingly VERY good quality, but I did not purchase from that venue very often because most people in my circle were getting the good stuff and had no time for seeds. They actually preferred to buy $200-$300 ounces of the good stuff compared to $50 or $60 ounces for the stuff that came across the border.

    I wasn't around in the 70s but from what I heard there was a lot of crappy herb, however, there was also a lot of good herb as well, being grown mostly in northern california and also being brought in from asian countries like Thailand.

    Louisiana swamp skunk.. not great.. stinky but did the job
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    anyone who expected Black Market Prices and Profits continue in a open market was foolish.

    Falling prices was the first thing I noticed.
    even a state lowered taxes,, how often does that happen?
    Not much more to add to that - you pretty much hit it on the head. I dont recall anyone looking for price increases.

    I noticed in the CCW fight that there were a lot of "gold diggers" who simply wanted to open self defense academies. Their time and effort was not so much to restore the right, but to exploit a new market - a calculated investment for personal gain (not really arguing that this is a bad thing). The only negative in this situation is that some compromises were made in the hopes to incrementally restore the right to carry. Unfortunately, after the laws were passed, the so called rights advocates left the fight to continue their businesses, and begin benefiting from their investment. I'd expect many of these so called gun rights advocates to also fight any laws that would remove or otherwise reduce training requirements - again, government collusion.

    So maybe the pot growers will try to find a way to impose more regulation? Aint freedom grand?

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
    the point is the small growers are being shoved out by big money suppliers
    and eventually it will end up like everything with 5 brands and 4 flavors
    look at a dispensary now and they have over 100 strains
    let this continue and after the small guys are gone the prices and taxes will go up again
    Small growers=prohibited

    Growers must deal with all regulation and barriers. Only the well heeled investors allowed.

    small growers are underground..Personal use or small profit.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
    the point is the small growers are being shoved out by big money suppliers
    and eventually it will end up like everything with 5 brands and 4 flavors
    look at a dispensary now and they have over 100 strains
    let this continue and after the small guys are gone the prices and taxes will go up again
    Ummmmm....are the big money suppliers using any government muscle to shove out the small guys? If not, then isn't this just the free market at work? It's like craft beer. There will always be a niche market for craft because because...people like having a variety. But folks who just want to get drunk will buy the cheap stuff. I'm still failing to see the problem. Someone who knows better please explain it.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Small growers=prohibited

    Growers must deal with all regulation and barriers. Only the well heeled investors allowed.

    small growers are underground..Personal use or small profit.
    Well....yeah. Everything from tobacco to beer to even soda is regulated and regulation in general sucks and we have too much regulation and the big companies that can hire people just to make sure they comply with regulations are better positioned than the small companies. That's simply part of life in modern America. We should be looking to repeal regulations in general.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  16. #14
    Ok, in 69 an oz was $20, a gram of hash $10, a key was like $250 as I remember it. Yeah $100 a pound sounds about right. Wow, a long time ago :/

    So I'm suppose to worry because the price is dropping and free markets are taking over, meh. They drive out the little guy, price goes up, little guy has a market again. As long as growers are allowed to grow guess I'm fine with that.

    Seems it was just the other day I was reading about black market pot being cheaper than "legal". Lots of commodities have been subsidized over the years. We see how that's working out, lol.

    Me, I'm for free markets..
    "Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" ~ Kenny Rogers, RIP


    "When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." ~ anonymous


    “The fate of all mankind I see
    Is in the hands of fools” ~ King Crimson

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    "As Forbes reported last week, wholesale marijuana prices are plunging in legal-marijuana markets. According to CannaSaver.com CEO Brian Shapiro, wholesale prices plummeted 60% in 2016, from $2,500 per pound to just $1,000."

    Still way out of bounds compared to the $90 lbs in the 70s.. anyone else remember 4 finger dime bags?
    I need a time machine.
    I am the spoon.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sam1952 View Post
    As long as growers are allowed to grow guess I'm fine with that.
    Yeah, we should talk about that. Our model of eventually rising the prices will never work because of this. We need to create a barrier to entry steep enough so only big players can enter. How about a selling permit at $100,000? Will that take care of the moms and pops?



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  20. #17
    yes a great deal of this is due to licensing fees and regulation
    in washington state you cannot grow for recreational
    in california they are requiring union membership for growers
    for instance

  21. #18
    oh and have you seen all these articles about mold in the buds causing health issues
    also claiming it killed one guy
    its $#@!ing damn near impossible to eliminate that 100%
    but they will soon likely craft some damn regulatory bull$#@! that no doubt will be prohibitively expensive as hell

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    "As Forbes reported last week, wholesale marijuana prices are plunging in legal-marijuana markets. According to CannaSaver.com CEO Brian Shapiro, wholesale prices plummeted 60% in 2016, from $2,500 per pound to just $1,000."

    Still way out of bounds compared to the $90 lbs in the 70s.. anyone else remember 4 finger dime bags?
    '75 we'd drive down to Corpus Christi $200.00 key...

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
    oh and have you seen all these articles about mold in the buds causing health issues
    also claiming it killed one guy
    its $#@!ing damn near impossible to eliminate that 100%
    but they will soon likely craft some damn regulatory bull$#@! that no doubt will be prohibitively expensive as hell
    I'm sure Monsanto has something that will work for that.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Yeah, we should talk about that. Our model of eventually rising the prices will never work because of this. We need to create a barrier to entry steep enough so only big players can enter. How about a selling permit at $100,000? Will that take care of the moms and pops?
    I'm right there with ya for the 100k permit fees. But which is it.. Too much weed driving down the price and driving out mom and pop or 100k permit fees. Maybe it'd both.. Again as long as grower are allowed to grow I'm fine. Liked that craft beer analogue a few post back.

    Then again there was the thread about taxes fueling the illegal market.. Copperhead road and all.
    "Nobody wins in a Dairy Challenge" ~ Kenny Rogers, RIP


    "When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest." ~ anonymous


    “The fate of all mankind I see
    Is in the hands of fools” ~ King Crimson

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
    yes a great deal of this is due to licensing fees and regulation
    in washington state you cannot grow for recreational
    in california they are requiring union membership for growers
    for instance
    What the...? A pot growers union? Seriously?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    What the...? A pot growers union? Seriously?
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...juana-training

    not sure if it is a closed shop yet but ya know it's coming

  27. #24
    ON a side note, an acquaintance of mine ran a thrift store in colorado. Paid $1000 a month on rent for a 5000 sf warehouse. As soon as pot was legalized, he lost his lease to growers paying $8000 a month for the same space.

    He's a free market guy, but he'll be happy when the market contracts a little and the rents come down a tad again.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    ON a side note, an acquaintance of mine ran a thrift store in colorado. Paid $1000 a month on rent for a 5000 sf warehouse. As soon as pot was legalized, he lost his lease to growers paying $8000 a month for the same space.

    He's a free market guy, but he'll be happy when the market contracts a little and the rents come down a tad again.
    Dayum.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    As soon as pot was legalized, he lost his lease to growers paying $8000 a month for the same space.
    If it was decriminalized nobody would pay that kind of money for a warehouse to grow in and nobody would be growing indoors to begin with.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

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  31. #27
    As long as people can just grow their own plants there's only so far the corporate giants can manipulate prices...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

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  32. #28
    Compare it to craft beer. People pay more for a good product. There will always be a majority paying little for mass produced garbage.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
    the point is the small growers are being shoved out by big money suppliers
    and eventually it will end up like everything with 5 brands and 4 flavors
    look at a dispensary now and they have over 100 strains
    let this continue and after the small guys are gone the prices and taxes will go up again
    Why are big companies bad and small companies good?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Why are big companies bad and small companies good?
    I don't think big Companies are bad
    I don't care for Corporations colluding with Government writing regulations to destroy competition

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