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Thread: Trump to go after H1B visa abuse next.

  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    In North America? Pretty much.

    At any rate there's no disputing that, as we now are, this land is terribly underpopulated.
    Absolutely, I only spend 1 hour in traffic each way to work. I see no reason why we should not try to squeeze more people per sq ft.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.



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  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulGeorge&Ringo View Post
    Simple thoughts from simple minds.
    +rep Combined with a sense of superiority is when it gets really interesting.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Is the influx artificially large or artificially small because of government?
    Were you naturally gifted with your social skills or did you have to work to develop them?
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Absolutely, I only spend 1 hour in traffic each way to work. I see no reason why we should not try to squeeze more people per sq ft.
    Then you live in a highly populated area. No matter where in America that is, you can travel 50 miles in almost any direction and find plenty of empty space. Just because you don't want more people in that little 100 square mile world you never step outside of, that's no reason to want a one-size-fits-all law imposed on the entire 4 million square miles of the USA where the conditions you describe don't exist.

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Then you live in a highly populated area. No matter where in America that is, you can travel 50 miles in almost any direction and find plenty of empty space. Just because you don't want more people in that little 100 square mile world you never step outside of, that's no reason to want a one-size-fits-all law imposed on the entire 4 million square miles of the USA where the conditions you describe don't exist.
    I think it was you who wanted to impose "a one-size-fits-all law" on everybody.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    I think it was you who wanted to impose "a one-size-fits-all law" on everybody.
    Then you're really as dumb as you act.

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Then you're really as dumb as you act.
    Coming from you I take it as a compliment.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Coming from you I take it as a compliment.
    Why do you even post here? Is it just to troll? You obviously don't support the site mission and probably didn't support Ron Paul in any way.

    Note to mods: I didn't call Timo's man a troll. I just asked the question. Please don't ban me.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Why do you even post here? Is it just to troll? You obviously don't support the site mission and probably didn't support Ron Paul in any way.

    Note to mods: I didn't call Timo's man a troll. I just asked the question. Please don't ban me.
    It was nice talking to you. For someone with such a short tenure on the board you make excellent points. Hope to see you around in the future.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    So, decades of the libertarian motto that immigration can increase once the welfare state is abolished goes right out the window?
    This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul.
    "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne
    "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Do you have a link showing that people getting degrees in "forest management", "wildlife ecology", etc., were included in the numbers in this study? The article is discussing hi-tech jobs. Additionally all those other organizations shown above had consistent results from their research and I highly doubt all those organizations were including degrees in "forest management" in their research.
    As you cited to the study, shouldn't you already be aware of what was included in it? The study itself has an appendix that states that it included degrees under the categories of such items as "animal science", "food science", "botany", "zoology", "ecology", "nutrition science", "miscellaneous biology", "cognitive science", "astronomy", which encompass the above degrees such as forest management and wildlife ecology which are both "ecology" degrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Do you have a link showing that this study involved only Bachelor's degrees?

    Again, its in the very study you referred to. The study itself states:

    "
    STEM Degrees. Beginning in 2009, the ACS began to ask those with bachelor's degrees about their undergraduate majors in college. Although the ACS records if an individual has a graduate degree, it does not record respondents' graduate field of study. As a result, throughout this report a STEM degree refers to an individual's undergraduate education only."(emphasis added)
    Last edited by AZJoe; 03-17-2017 at 05:28 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul.
    "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne
    "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    There's no reason that should destroy anyone's life.

    And those people may not have those jobs, but other people do. So they're still being done, only now more cheaply.

    Seems like a good thing.

    Or do you also moan the loss of tailoring jobs out there due to the advent of sewing machines?
    If you honestly believe the bolded, then you do not meaningfully interact in your community. People's lives are structured around their profession. Their economic responsibilities are tied to their career. When that person is displaced and can no longer meet their obligations their lives are effectively destroyed. They must accept a new role in life, one less than what they had spent many hours of their life developing. The game of life dealt them a bad hand and they lost.

    Libertarianism is fine with the fact certain lives, in certain professions, are effectively destroyed by progress. It's a good thing in the greater picture.

    It's really unbecoming when people that proclaim a love of liberty try to shove this under the blanket by acting like there is no reason that an individual's displacement would ruin their lives. At least have the balls to tell those people "It is a good thing your life is ruined, because the rest of humanity is making progress. Learn new skills so that you are relevant again."

    But make damn sure the population doesn't catch on that they can put at end to it when they've had enough of watching their communities displaced as a result of this. Humanity has this penchant for putting a halt to progress when it doesn't like what it's doing to the people around them. Violently. And rightly so.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.
    If that someone is working for a business that lobbied the government for anything, then the line seems awfully damn hazy to me.

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.
    Voluntary relationship. What are the other options? You can always pound sand?
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Voluntary relationship. What are the other options?
    The other alternative is called government, which is involuntary. When government decides to create an alphabet agency (TSA, NSA, EPA, BLM, DEA ... ) or politician's or agency's latest pet program and hire people and spend and enforce, they do not need your voluntary cooperation. It is not a voluntary exchange. Workers, savers, investors are forced to purchase/pay for it through taxes or inflation, whether they want to or not.
    Last edited by AZJoe; 03-17-2017 at 05:39 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul.
    "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne
    "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    If you honestly believe the bolded, then you do not meaningfully interact in your community.
    I do believe it, and I do interact with my community. Job changes and even career changes happen all the time. And the people who have to undergo them generally survive the ordeal. Artificially propping up someone's job just to keep them in it and not have to experience change does more harm than good.

    The statist propaganda that you and others here are spewing is just another variation of luddism. You want to zero in on a group of people who lose their jobs like that tiny subset of the population is a closed system, focus on the seen at the expense of the unseen, and use that as an excuse to support policies that are far more destructive than the job losses you use as your pretext.

    I sincerely hope that all of you stick around here and keep open minds. Give some thought to the free market ideology that Ron Paul and this website champion, and you may find it not to be as stupid as you think it is.

  17. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.
    The "welfare state" is a general term for all kinds of benefits provided by government. Entry into the US adds another person (and family) to the welfare state. As Ron Paul often says, the entire welfare state is a magnet. H1B is a pathway to citizenship, and then the full benefits and safety nets will be available legally.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  18. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I do believe it, and I do interact with my community. Job changes and even career changes happen all the time. And the people who have to undergo them generally survive the ordeal. Artificially propping up someone's job just to keep them in it and not have to experience change does more harm than good.
    Every overly generalized line you write makes it painfully obvious you don't interact in your community worth a damn. Your exclusive focus on the big picture makes it obvious. As I said before, at least have the balls to discuss that specific group in plain detail.

    The statist propaganda that you and others here are spewing is just another variation of luddism. You want to zero in on a group of people who lose their jobs like that tiny subset of the population is a closed system, focus on the seen at the expense of the unseen, and use that as an excuse to support policies that are far more destructive than the job losses you use as your pretext.
    Here's the point you're missing because you're too blind to see it. It doesn't require statist solutions for the population to have enough of displacement. Violence does not require the state, or did you forget that? Do you think human history always required a state for tribes to come into conflict when one felt pressured or threatened by another? Do you seriously believe humans don't show marked preference for those they know over ones they do not? Do you believe humans will not fight for the ones close to them at the expense of those that are not? How, in the name of all that is holy, does any of that require the state?

    Displaced populations, given a high enough percentage of the population, are prone to taking affairs into their own hands. That's the point. If enough of the population is suffering displacement and discontent, then they can become a potent force in their own right. In fact, the great irony in all this is in order to successfully displace a population with an influx of foreigners you need the government's force to accomplish it, because the foreigners would not have the means to defend their claims without the government's protection.

    So if you want to argue for the displacement of an existing population, for any reason (in this case, economically), then you had better be ready to bring government force as back up. And that makes you a statist, because you know damn well what is going to happen without government force and it isn't pretty. Only a government has the force necessary to force integration on a population, which is damned well necessary when one population's prosperity declines in favor of another. Human history bears this out, hell American history bears this out.

    So how's it feel arguing for an economic point of view that ignores the tribal behavior of humans and requires a state to defend your desired economic system? Come on Superfluous Man, stop spreading statist propaganda.
    Last edited by BSWPaulsen; 03-17-2017 at 12:48 PM.

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    It's not because of lacking balls. It's because of not wanting to be fallacious. To narrow the discussion to that specific group, and treat them as if they're a closed system, is to focus on the seen at the expense of the unseen.
    Not wanting to be fallacious? My God, man, your entire position became fallacious the moment you showed yourself incapable of discussing a specific group.

    These people exist, they are not a logical fallacy. Your refusal to address that particular group is most definitely because you lack balls, not because you are interested in logical consistency. Logical consistency would result in telling those people "It's a good thing your lives were ruined. It means progress when these foreigners do the job more cheaply than you did. Obtain more skills so you are relevant again, even if your life will probably be worse than what it was due to your many hours spent developing skills that are no longer worth as much. Enjoy your lower standard of living."

    When a community has had enough of seeing foreigners displace those around them you had better hope government is there to keep them from becoming violent. Those with an understanding of human history have a good idea of where this is headed (populism is on the rise for a reason, and history has given us a pretty damn good indicator of what the end result of it is), and what you're endorsing will require government force if what you think is "progress" is to be sustained. And God save the people that endorsed the foreigners displacing the existing population in the event the displaced rise to power, because the fate in store for them is not to be envied.

    Calling someone who loses their job because someone else will do it for less a "displaced population" is shear propaganda.
    When there is more than one of that individual it creates a displaced population. Plural. Technically correct in its entirety, and you can be damn sure there is a lot more than just one individual given what the H1B visa program constitutes. Not sheer propaganda as you fancy it, but plainly factual truth. All I need is 2 individuals displaced by a foreigner being invited to take their job and my position is the correct one.

    And you're definitely intellectually disingenuous if you think inviting foreigners to do work already done by domestic workers does not amount to population displacement. Your position is intellectually rotten to its core, and is not even remotely tenable.
    Last edited by BSWPaulsen; 03-18-2017 at 12:43 AM.

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    It's not because of lacking balls. It's because of not wanting to be fallacious. To narrow the discussion to that specific group, and treat them as if they're a closed system, is to focus on the seen at the expense of the unseen.
    You are so full of it.


    Calling someone who loses their job because someone else will do it for less a "displaced population" is shear propaganda.
    Not doing that is stupidity.
    Last edited by timosman; 03-18-2017 at 12:55 AM.
    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Additionally, just as all Bachelor's degrees are not alike, neither are all STEM bachelor's degrees. For instance wildlife ecology, forest management, archaeology, anthropology, etc., are all degrees that are include in the STEM Bachelor's degrees. However they have very little demand in the marketplace outside of perhaps academia, teaching or government.
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    The study itself has an appendix that states that it included degrees under the categories of such items as "animal science", "food science", "botany", "zoology", "ecology", "nutrition science", "miscellaneous biology", "cognitive science", "astronomy", which encompass the above degrees such as forest management and wildlife ecology which are both "ecology" degrees.


    Okay, so what you're saying is that on the right side of the image above there are some degrees under the "Science" heading which have little opportunity for employment. Okay, fair enough. Although i would argue most Americans are spending their time and energy getting STEM degrees that are employable yet, because of foreigners with those same degrees getting these jobs in the U.S., many Americans are getting screwed and having to find employment outside of the areas in which they trained and/or worked (in the case of workers being made to train their cheaper foreign replacements).

    From the study:

    "As already indicated, the acronym STEM stands for science (life and physical), technology (computer science), engineering, and math."

    "Table 2 (below) reads as follows: 50 percent of natives with a technology degree have a technology job. The grayed boxes show the share of those working in the same field as their undergraduate degrees. Thus, only 2 percent of natives with a math degree have a math job, only 34 percent of the U.S.-born with an engineering degree work as an engineer, and 10 percent of those with a science degree have a job in science."

    So even if, for the sake of argument, you want to ignore the right side of the above image under the "Science" heading and only consider degrees on the left side of the above image (ie. Technology, Mathematics, and Engineering), you still have a huge number of Americans who have spent a chunk of their lives getting STEM degrees in employable STEM fields (and some who have worked in those fields for decades) who either cannot get jobs in those fields, or are being thrown out of fields in which they have trained and worked for decades because huge numbers of foreigners with those same degrees are being brought into this country to work at the same jobs.




    So, at a bachelor's level (which most tech jobs in this country require) in computer science and engineering, it is completely unnecessary to increase the supply of foreign H1b visa workers. And this is where most of these H1b's are going. If you're talking about highly specialized skills then there _might_ be a need to import a foreigner here or there. But that's the exception not the rule.

    Now there are some here who feel it is okay to import huge numbers of foreigners willing to take the jobs of American tech workers on the cheap. That's a different argument and an argument of globalization versus nationalism. I _despise_ globalization because it's a race to the bottom to compete against foreigners willing to be slave laborers just to get a paycheck. And globalization has proven since the 1990s to massively decrease the standard of living of American citizens as a whole. Artificially increasing the supply of foreign tech workers distorts the U.S. labor market and the whole supply/demand equation; without this distortion, employers would have to pay the going rate. Rather than a race to the bottom which globalization pushes, I prefer stabilization of our labor market so that living standards can be lifted up for the working and middle classes.
    Last edited by charrob; 03-18-2017 at 05:48 PM.

  22. #171

    Default "60 Minutes" examines H-1B visas outsourcing American jobs

    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  23. #172

    Default

    The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

  24. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    More parts:





    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

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