Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 31

Thread: Vegi-'burger'

  1. #1

    Vegi-'burger'

    For Lilly, from Drudge;


    The ‘Impossible’ Veggie Burger: A Tech Industry Answer to the Big Mac


    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/b...le-burger.html

    George Motz, a burly, mutton-chopped Brooklynite, fashions himself as America’s hamburger expert. An enthusiastic carnivore who has chronicled his love affair with ground beef through books and films, Mr. Motz estimates he has eaten more than 14,000 hamburgers over the last 20 years.

    But on a frigid Monday in December, Mr. Motz sat down for a burger that promised to be unlike any he had eaten before. He was at Momofuku Nishi, a new restaurant from the celebrity chef David Chang, and he had come to eat the Impossible Burger.

    The Impossible Burger wants to be the tech industry’s answer to the Big Mac. Concocted by a team of food scientists in Silicon Valley, it is made from wheat, coconut oil and potatoes, yet it aims to be more than just another veggie patty. Thanks to the addition of heme, an iron-rich molecule contained in blood (which the company produces in bulk using fermented yeast), it is designed to look, smell, sizzle and taste like a beef burger.

    Patrick Brown, the founder and chief executive of Impossible Foods, said the goal was to disrupt the multibillion-dollar market for ground beef without killing cows. “You can have uncompromisingly delicious meat without using animals,” Mr. Brown said in an interview.



    Mr. Brown, a former biochemist at Stanford who founded Impossible Foods about six years ago, said that in blind taste tests, some people could not distinguish between the Impossible Burger and a beef patty. And in an informal tasting organized by The New York Times, the reactions were generally positive.

    At Momofuku Nishi, Mr. Motz knew what he was getting. The Impossible Burger arrived on a squishy white bun, topped with a slice of American cheese, lettuce and tomato, fries on the side.

    “It looks real,” Mr. Motz said, picking up the burger and examining it. “It feels like the right weight.”

    And with that, he took a big bite, chewed vigorously and stared into the distance.

    For Impossible Foods to succeed, Mr. Brown will need to win over meat eaters like Mr. Motz. “No disrespect to vegetarians,” Mr. Brown said, “but the only consumers we really care about are meat consumers.”

    A vegetarian for 40 years, Mr. Brown is not interested in making just another meatless treat for those who have already sworn off eating animals. Instead, he said, he wants to change the world.

    When he took a sabbatical from Stanford six years ago and pondered what big problem he could help solve, he zeroed in on the idea of reducing the consumption of meat.

    Never mind the business of killing billions of animals for food. The farming, fishing and production of feed for livestock and poultry strains the earth’s finite resources — consuming fossil fuel, emitting greenhouse gasses, hogging farmland and polluting waterways. “It is seriously imperiling some of the world’s ecosystems, Mr. Brown said.

    “But there is a solution,” he said. “Produce all those same foods, with all the specifications consumers demand, but do it with a much lower environmental footprint, without using animals as the technology. That, I realized, was something that was fundamentally doable.”

    There is a lot of money riding on Mr. Brown’s eco-vegetarian zeal. Impossible Foods has raised more than $180 million from investors including Google Ventures, UBS and Bill Gates. It is part of a new crop of food companies — Soylent, Hampton Creek and Juicero among them — that is aiming to revolutionize the way we eat. Another company, Beyond Meat, is also making a plant-based ground beef alternative and is already selling in Whole Foods and other stores. It, too, aims to entice meat eaters.


    An Impossible Burger starts as a mixture of wheat, coconut oil and potatoes. Credit Jason Henry for The New York Times
    Photo

    Heme, an iron-rich molecule contained in blood, is used to make the veggie burger taste, smell and sizzle, above right, like a beef burger. Credit Jason Henry for The New York Times
    Photo

    In blind taste tests, some people could not distinguish between the Impossible Burger and a beef patty, according to the company’s founder. Credit Jason Henry for The New York Times
    There is a growing market for these products. Sales of meat substitutes are up 18 percent in recent years, to more than $1 billion in the United States this year, from about $850 million in 2012, according to Euromonitor International, a research firm.

    “Customers are becoming more willing to accept the idea of alternatives to meat,” said Raphael Moreau, a food analyst at Euromonitor. “And that’s where the real success will come from, by appealing to a much wider group beyond vegetarians.”

    But for Impossible Foods to succeed, carnivores like Mr. Motz would have to choose an Impossible Burger over a conventional hamburger at the point of sale.

    Mr. Brown said he had no illusions that meat-eaters would go vegetarian simply for the sake of the environment. “We have to have a product that consumers choose because they want to eat it,” he said. “The market will decide.”

    So what did America’s burger expert think of the Impossible Burger? Back at Momofuku Nishi, Mr. Motz delivered his verdict.

    “No, I’m very sorry, but this does not taste like a hamburger,” he said. “It tastes like a fabrication of beef, not a real animal.”

    Mr. Motz wasn’t totally dismissive. The Impossible Burger almost looked the part, and the patty had a pleasurably salty crust. But it lacked the distinctively greasy mouth feel of a real burger, and the flavor was, in Mr. Motz’s opinion, bland. Not bad compared with a Gardenburger, he said, but not like the real thing either.

    “This is a big step in the right direction for the veggie burger,” Mr. Motz said. “And I haven’t burped yet. I usually burp.”

    Mr. Brown said he was only getting started. The Impossible Burger is being served in just a handful of high-end restaurants for now. There are plans to expand distribution this year and make it available for consumers to cook at home. He and his team are continuing to improve its formula, he said.

    “The cow is never going to get better at making meat,” Mr. Brown said. “It was not optimized for beef. It did not evolve to be eaten. Our burger was. We’re always getting better.”

    Perhaps Mr. Motz will revisit the Impossible Burger in the future. For now, he is sticking with ground beef.

    “I’m proud of the fact that they have gone and made the veggie burger for the proletariat,” he said. “But any carnivore will take one bite of this burger and know it’s fake.”

    With that, Mr. Motz left Momofuku Nishi. His destination: a nearby food truck, where he ordered a real cheeseburger.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    “The cow is never going to get better at making meat,” Mr. Brown said. “It was not optimized for beef. It did not evolve to be eaten. Our burger was. We’re always getting better.”
    Uhm, I'm quite certain that the modern cow was specifically grown/bred "evolved" with the purpose of optimizing its meat to be eaten.

  4. #3
    There is a lot of money riding on Mr. Brown’s eco-vegetarian zeal. Impossible Foods has raised more than $180 million from investors including Google Ventures, UBS and Bill Gates
    I am not one bit surprise to see Bill Gates name. What a great philanthropist he is! <S>
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  5. #4
    I think these companies would do better if they quit trying to make their product taste like meat and calling them burgers. There are a few I really like but I don't eat them with the mindset that they're a burger substitute and, frankly, they taste better if you don't dress them like a burger. If I had the burger mindset when I ate the ones I like, I would be disappointed.

    I buy the chipolte "burgers" for a quick, low calorie, Tex-Mex fix. Mr Animal even thinks they're good but he can't get past the "burger" thing. I eat mine on a bed of shredded lettuce with salsa and avocado, btw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  6. #5
    It is part of a new crop of food companiesSoylent, Hampton Creek and Juicero among them — that is aiming to revolutionize the way we eat. Another company, Beyond Meat, is also making a plant-based ground beef alternative and is already selling in Whole Foods and other stores. It, too, aims to entice meat eaters.
    Soylent- is their Red or Green out on the market yet?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 01-14-2017 at 03:55 PM.

  7. #6
    They want cows to become extinct.

    The reason there are so many cows on this planet is because they are so damn tasty.. Same with chickens, they hit the genetic lottery and have genes that make them very abundant species. If they didn't taste so well, as a species they would do much worse.

    So yeah. We should start eating tigers and other endangered animals.


    PS: I have no problem with eating vegetarian as long as it's just as tasty and nutritious. In fact, if it were proven to be just as nutritious and tasty, I'd go vegetarian. No point in killing animals just because you can. Growing wheat and stuff takes much less land than growing wheat and feeding it to cows... So more food for all of us, at lower prices. I don't see this as a bad thing. I call this progress. What I would not call progress is if eating meat where banned... Teh free market. That's what I want.
    Last edited by luctor-et-emergo; 01-14-2017 at 12:21 PM.
    "I am a bird"

  8. #7
    Which is it? The answer to the Big Mac? Or uncompromisingly delicious meat?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Which is it? The answer to the Big Mac? Or uncompromisingly delicious meat?
    Well, that's what I am afraid for. Most of these so called meat replacements aren't as tasty as real meat... Hardly ever juicy. But that doesn't mean it's not possible.
    "I am a bird"



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    Well, that's what I am afraid for. Most of these so called meat replacements aren't as tasty as real meat... Hardly ever juicy. But that doesn't mean it's not possible.
    Just picked up my yearly 1/2 yesterday.........

    Beef's down right now, $2.90lb for the half..

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Just picked up my yearly 1/2 yesterday.........

    Beef's down right now, $2.90lb for the half..
    I wish I could do that here. Maybe, in 10-15 years, I will be your neighbor.
    "I am a bird"

  13. #11
    In blind taste tests, some people could not distinguish between the Impossible Burger and a beef patty

    Whose beef patty? a Mickey D's beef patty???

    Compare fake cardboard to cardboard and yeah, prolly be hard to tell the dif.

    This is fake beef news!!

  14. #12
    Just a quick side point: I've eaten at other Momofuku restaraunts in NYC an have had 2 of the best meals of my life. One was the 1st time I had their pork buns. It changed my perspective on how pork can taste and feel. The other meal was their "two fried chicken" dinner you have to reserve ahead of time. It comes with 2 friend chickens, 1 southern style, the other Korean style. It was unbelievable. If anyone EVER plans to visit NYC, try to get that reservation! $100 flat for 4-8 people (we had 6 and it was more than enough food). Then go to "milk bar" for desert.

    My point being, if anyone can do it, Momofuku can.
    The more prohibitions you have,
    the less virtuous people will be.
    The more weapons you have,
    the less secure people will be.
    The more subsidies you have,
    the less self-reliant people will be.

    Therefore the Master says:
    I let go of the law,
    and people become honest.
    I let go of economics,
    and people become prosperous.
    I let go of religion,
    and people become serene.
    I let go of all desire for the common good,
    and the good becomes common as grass.

    -Tao Te Ching, Section 57

  15. #13
    Soylent, Hampton Creek and Juicero among them
    Seriously?



    They won't be happy until we're all eating soy glop from replicators like Star Trek or The Matrix.




  16. #14
    We had the giant portobella mushroom on the grill like a burger on the bun last year, and it was incredible. Like a mushroom-flavor infused tender steak.
    fungus > veggie puck

    Must grow some of these.
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
    Ron Paul

    Please watch, subscribe, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report
    BITCHUTE IS A LIBERTY MINDED ALTERNATIVE TO GOOGLE SUBSIDIARY YOUTUBE

  17. #15
    Heme, an iron-rich molecule contained in blood, is used to make the veggie burger taste, smell and sizzle, above right, like a beef burger.
    Wait, where does he get the blood? Is it still vegetarian at that point?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Wait, where does he get the blood? Is it still vegetarian at that point?
    It appears to come from yeast, who are exploited and harmed in the making of these veggie burgers
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    For Lilly, from Drudge;


    The ‘Impossible’ Veggie Burger: A Tech Industry Answer to the Big Mac


    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/b...le-burger.html
    Since you (like Mr. Motz) are an enthusiastic carnivore, I have a question for you. Would you be open to lab grown meat, which (unlike the impossible burger and other veggie burgers) actually IS animal flesh... just without the torture and killing?




    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I think these companies would do better if they quit trying to make their product taste like meat and calling them burgers. There are a few I really like but I don't eat them with the mindset that they're a burger substitute and, frankly, they taste better if you don't dress them like a burger. If I had the burger mindset when I ate the ones I like, I would be disappointed.

    I also don't like the idea. But I think they're mainly geared toward people transitioning to a vegan diet, who maybe find it hard to quit meat cold turkey. (no pun intended)

    I've found that when you radically change your diet, after a while your taste buds change. And your mindset definitely changes. I no longer desire greasy hamburgers or steak... for a few reasons. But I can see how there is a market for something that looks and tastes similar to meat.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    It appears to come from yeast, who are exploited and harmed in the making of these veggie burgers
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Since you (like Mr. Motz) are an enthusiastic carnivore, I have a question for you. Would you be open to lab grown meat, which (unlike the impossible burger and other veggie burgers) actually IS animal flesh... just without the torture and killing?







    I also don't like the idea. But I think they're mainly geared toward people transitioning to a vegan diet, who maybe find it hard to quit meat cold turkey. (no pun intended)

    I've found that when you radically change your diet, after a while your taste buds change. And your mindset definitely changes. I no longer desire greasy hamburgers or steak... for a few reasons. But I can see how there is a market for something that looks and tastes similar to meat.
    That's the thing, though. It doesn't look or taste like meat - the faux grill marks are a turn off. It just feels like a very poor substitute when you have a burger mindset eating it. They really need to work on their marketing. They would do better calling them veggie patties and putting out some good recipes, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Since you (like Mr. Motz) are an enthusiastic carnivore, I have a question for you. Would you be open to lab grown meat, which (unlike the impossible burger and other veggie burgers) actually IS animal flesh... just without the torture and killing?
    I'm one of those carnivores who likes to look his food in the eye before he kills it.

    Of course I'd try lab-beef but I'll try anything...

    There's a lot of folks who have never eaten food that they've fed-n-watered, something tells me that they'd be more susceptible to lab experiments or vegetable substitutes...But like I said I'll try anything...

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    That's the thing, though. It doesn't look or taste like meat - the faux grill marks are a turn off. It just feels like a very poor substitute when you have a burger mindset eating it. They really need to work on their marketing. They would do better calling them veggie patties and putting out some good recipes, IMO.
    Yeah, I was just saying that there's a specific market for faux meat, and it's growing in popularity, even though it still doesn't taste the same.

    I think that people who go vegan for ethical reasons don't care that it doesn't taste the same, they're just glad to be eating something that doesn't involve torturing a sentient being.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm one of those carnivores who likes to look his food in the eye before he kills it.

    Of course I'd try lab-beef but I'll try anything...

    There's a lot of folks who have never eaten food that they've fed-n-watered, something tells me that they'd be more susceptible to lab experiments or vegetable substitutes...But like I said I'll try anything...
    Thank you for the sincere answer.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Yeah, I was just saying that there's a specific market for faux meat, and it's growing in popularity, even though it still doesn't taste the same.

    I think that people who go vegan for ethical reasons don't care that it doesn't taste the same, they're just glad to be eating something that doesn't involve torturing a sentient being.
    Exactly. Vegans don't care and people trying to eat less meat will be disappointed. The first time I tried one, I had it like a burger. *gag* The only reason I tried another is because my son wanted them. I tasted his plain patty and thought, well damn, that would make a good tex-mex salad thing. It does, too. Mr Animal even liked it until I called it a veggie burger and then he gave me a look. He has a militant vegan bartender who's been giving him daily lectures about his lack of vegan options and has zero tolerance for anything vegan right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Exactly. Vegans don't care and people trying to eat less meat will be disappointed. The first time I tried one, I had it like a burger. *gag* The only reason I tried another is because my son wanted them. I tasted his plain patty and thought, well damn, that would make a good tex-mex salad thing. It does, too. Mr Animal even liked it until I called it a veggie burger and then he gave me a look. He has a militant vegan bartender who's been giving him daily lectures about his lack of vegan options and has zero tolerance for anything vegan right now.
    I would imagine there are plenty of napkins and cardboard coasters in the bar area if he gets hungry.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I would imagine there are plenty of napkins and cardboard coasters in the bar area if he gets hungry.
    She. He was trying to be nice and made her a spinach and artichoke cheese dip and she freaked out about the cheese. I think it hurt his feelings, lol. Jokes on her, though. I don't think there's any cheese in his "cheese" dip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Yeah, I was just saying that there's a specific market for faux meat, and it's growing in popularity, even though it still doesn't taste the same.

    I think that people who go vegan for ethical reasons don't care that it doesn't taste the same, they're just glad to be eating something that doesn't involve torturing a sentient being.
    +rep!

    I'm good with folks eating as they wish.

    Gotta wonder though how many vegans feel the same way..

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Exactly. Vegans don't care and people trying to eat less meat will be disappointed. The first time I tried one, I had it like a burger. *gag* The only reason I tried another is because my son wanted them. I tasted his plain patty and thought, well damn, that would make a good tex-mex salad thing. It does, too. Mr Animal even liked it until I called it a veggie burger and then he gave me a look. He has a militant vegan bartender who's been giving him daily lectures about his lack of vegan options and has zero tolerance for anything vegan right now.
    Ha. Did he know what it was before you called it a veggie burger?

    I like some veggie burgers, but I guess like you said, I don't have the "it has to taste just like meat" mindset.

    I tried a vegan pizza (frozen) recently and it was really good. (I'm not usually a fan of frozen pizza.) I'll definitely be getting that again, for days when I'm too lazy to cook. But for the most part, I try not to buy substitute stuff, because it's not as healthy as eating homemade plant-based whole food.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  32. #28
    I just wish I could get an old fashioned ground chuck burger that tasted like they did a long time ago.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I just wish I could get an old fashioned ground chuck burger that tasted like they did a long time ago.


    I've got about 100#'s right now.......

    Don't you have a local packing plant? If so go in and ask who raises good cattle..

    Hint; If they're packing meat in plastic steer (pun) clear, look for tightly wrapped in two layers of heavy butcher paper and a clean kill and processing area...

    Good houses will be glad to show you around.

  34. #30
    Shooting for the stars, are they? Seeking to make a great burger, they imitate McDonald's?!?!? WTF?!?!? I won't eat that crap. They should visit some local burger joints around here to imitate, or if they like corporate chains, at least imitate a Fudrucker's Burger.

    Second I never hear meat producers advertising that they serve meat that taste like tofu, tempeh, etc. It's because our taste buds are made for eating meat, not processed crap.
    ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. In Japan, Burger King Has a Black Cheese Burger
    By Suzanimal in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 10-28-2018, 02:11 PM
  2. Rank The Big 3 Burger Chains!
    By TaftFan in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 02-05-2015, 03:36 AM
  3. Ron Paul Visits In-n-Out burger
    By RonPaulFanInGA in forum Ron Paul Forum
    Replies: 82
    Last Post: 03-23-2014, 12:04 AM
  4. The Burger King Brawl!
    By FrankRep in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-24-2011, 12:48 PM
  5. Ron Paul Burger
    By theantirobot in forum Grassroots Central
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-09-2007, 07:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •