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Thread: Rand Paul Plan to Repeal and Replace Obamacare

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    W

    2. I am criticizing his involvement in government. But it is more than that. I accept that Ron got involved with government out of a sincere effort to at least have a public voice against it. I don't see that with Rand. Not a bit. Ron was willing to risk his position, influence, and power to do what he thought was right and to not violate his principles. Rand exchanges political favors, violating his supposedly libertarian principles for what he thinks will be a toehold in the door. Ostensibly this will position him for a Presidential run, but this is a delusional hope. Which is why we have President Trump. Not even Ted Cruz could get elected. There are no "ripening fruits" just rot hanging on the vine.


    So, in choosing to betray myself for the blind chance I might be able to lie my way into power one day or actually maintaining true principles, I will choose true principles every day. At least then I'm not making anything worse.
    No actually Ron was perfectly happy doing what was necessary to stay in office. And rightfully so. But Ron is no more principled that any number of people in Washington. His district was consistently in the top 10 districts receiving pork and he created a laughable excuse for it. Ron's stock answer on Medicare about closing military bases or something is ridiculous. Ron supported Newt against Dick Armey, who was the insurgent and later Freedomworks head, for Speaker. Ron endorsed numerous horrible people like Don Young against a libertarian Republican and Lamar Smith.

    Ron was a good promoter of libertarian ideas. I give Ron very little credit for being "principled." Is going on Alex Jones to talk about globalist sea monsters principled or is that more pragmatic because Jones has a fringe audience that might be willing to donate to an outlier Congressmen? I give him credit because he was an effective salesman whose legacy includes a number of very good people in Washington and forums like this. I also give Ron credit because he put himself out there for ridicule just like Amash, Massie, and Rand do.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by goRPaul View Post

    Purists should leave the "change from within" crowd alone, and vice-versa. Recognize the contributions by each other, help each other if it's convenient, but don't rely on the other or drag each other down.
    Sure I'm harsh, because its tiresome to see sideline quarterbacking from people who claim some moral high ground but never actually do anything because they're 'above it all'. I hear it all too much from the local anarcho-capitalists who are above it all (to avoid doing any actual work) but can never resist the urge to move their mouths.

    The so called purists are so pure that they literally interject themselves into how government intervention should take place. I'm looking at them to put up or shut up, leave the system, don't depend or give into the system in anyway, which is what I try to do at the same time I support Ron/Rand/Justin/Thomas.

    The whole, 'Rand is not Ron' talking point has been beaten to death x1000000, its really just a joke now and you can tell how serious people are about any actual change when they bring this point up. Ron preaches to the choir, and we love it. Rand takes the message, softens it up and presents it to a completely new audience that Ron was never able or meant to reach. Rand does it in a way where it forces people to agree or accept hypocrisy. Many agree publicly and become fans, many agree in secret and many are still holding out but he is doing his job and expanding the tent.

    But the purists don't want to expand the tent, they like the exclusive club feeling that they know Mises and none of their friends have any idea what they're talking about.
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  4. #63
    So have any other Republicans presented anything?
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    So have any other Republicans presented anything?
    LOL no. Rand mentioned the guy up for HHS has offered one in the past, though.
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz View Post
    But the purists don't want to expand the tent, they like the exclusive club feeling that they know Mises and none of their friends have any idea what they're talking about.
    Much of your criticism is accurate, but this statement is just frustration. Those working outside of government are spreading the ideas of liberty, just in a different way. I think we need a truce between the two camps. We share the philosophy, just differ in activism, which is quite alright. Any way liberty is spread is a good way.

  8. #66
    Importantly, Paul avoids one of the most significant pitfalls of many Republican plans by not retaining Obamacare’s pre-existing-condition rules. These provisions, which prohibit insurers from denying coverage or charging more to people who are already sick, are among the few popular parts of Obamacare. Yet they are also the reason behind some of the most damaging and unpopular provisions, such as the individual mandate.

    Paul avoids one of the most significant pitfalls of many Republican plans by not retaining Obamacare’s pre-existing-condition rules.

    Some Republicans are discussing ways to preserve the pre-existing-condition requirements as long as a person maintains continuous coverage, or creating an open-enrollment period during which the rules apply. But those proposals would still encourage people to game the system, jumping to more comprehensive plans or those with the best specialists after they become sick, knowing that insurers could not refuse them or increase their premiums. If Republicans simultaneously eliminate the mandate, this will only accelerate the adverse-selection death spiral that is already besetting Obamacare.

    Paul would eliminate the pre-existing-condition regulations altogether (after a transition period), while his other reforms would significantly reduce the number of people who genuinely cannot buy health insurance because of a pre-existing condition. For those who still need help, Paul envisions responsibility for covering them being shifted to the states, possibly in conjunction with proposals to block-grant Medicaid.
    Rand has his head up his ass. Let me get this straight. Insurance companies have for decades lobbied Congress to pass regulations and have in fact written laws giving them a captive market. They contractually dictate to medical providers that they cannot provide their services for the same price as what they would receive from insurance. In fact, leading to people without insurance that has negotiated rates being charged four times the amount as what the medical provider would get from insurance. Then, the insurance company has the right to deny coverage to individuals. Sweet deal. Except for the person who is left paying 4 times the amount.

    You want free market? Great. Start ripping out decades of regulations that have gotten us in this mess.
    Last edited by LibertyEagle; 01-14-2017 at 03:45 AM.
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  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Suddenly, nobody has a problem with the federal government being involved where it shouldn't be, because Rand.
    Well hold on now. Let us stop and think on this for just a moment. Obama and a traitorous Congress saddled us with BammyCare over the course of eight years. Let us not forget that we are talking of what is essentially the largest market monopoly in the nation, speaking for the full 320++ millions of people. That's a very large ship that does not come about on a dime.

    Before blowing a gasket, stop to think of what it would mean in real terms if Congress were to repeal BammyCare on Monday, cold turkey. Imagine people such as my wife who just underwent an 11-hour surgery, still in the hospital recovering. They are in a near-death state and in need of the closest monitoring and care. Were their means of paying for all that to go <poof> from one minute to another, chaos would ensue for millions, with plenty dying. Some hospitals would face terrible financial crises. In short, we'd be in a world of trouble.

    Some people might say, "so what?". That's easy when you are in great health. Not so hot when you are in need of help.

    Getting this huge vessel on another heading is going to take time, and the change from present course to ultimate will almost certainly have to come in stages.

    Recall what I have been writing lately about incremental change. It has taken America 228 years to get to this sorry pass. Even under the best of plausible circumstances, it is going to take many years to make good headway from the precipice at which we now find ourselves.

    Isn't anyone here libertarian enough to wonder what Rand's justification for having a replacement is, when the Constitution could not be clearer that control over health care is not among the powers delegated to the federal government?
    The justification is the avoidance of crashing the "medical economy", which will certainly result in disasters for endless numbers of people. "Government", whether traitorous or merely inept, got us into this at the point of the sword. They are responsible for this fiasco and now have to take a staged approach away. I have NO idea whether all this talk issuing from Trump, Congress, etc. can be taken at face, or if its all just more bull$#@! designed to paint us into a different but equally lousy corner. I only know that cold-turkey would be a bad thing for huge numbers of people.

    This is the bed we have allowed Themme to make for us. We must now lie in it until such time, hopefully, as we direct those we have hired to get us out of this mess.

    Orthogonal point: this is a grand example of just how completely ill-architected our Constitution is and, far more significantly, how spectacularly we as a people have failed ourselves. We are more concerned with getting that new BMW in Teal Orchid Vomit and fretting over whether our girlfriends will master the craft of the blowjob, than we are with our freedoms. Theye have long ago assumed positions to which they had no right, and our forbears just sat idly by like ignorant, dull-witted miscreants and let them. It is high time we become a warrior culture. Otherwise, let us dispense with all this phony baloney pretense of being "free", lay down, and be openly that which we have become: low-rent whores willing to sell ourselves cheaply for the most meager of token offerings.

    Is there anything less libertarian than a federal government controlling the health care sector?
    Nothing comes immediately to mind, but we cannot just shut it off. Theye have been very clever, having us locked in a self-reinforcing loop that could cause terrible harms in the event it is tampered with in the "wrong" ways.

    Just look at the military. We are now talking of TRILLIONS of dollars PER YEAR. This doesn't even rise to absurdity. Now think of the ways in which US foreign policy has been altered and carried forth just since 2001's most infamous day. We have pissed off a huge portion of the world, have "secretly" (har har har) given birth to organizations such as this so-called "ISIS", and helped set the global stage in such fashion that we cannot, under these prevailing conditions, afford to step-down our military.

    Theye created modern China - not the Chinese - for without America, China would still be pulling rickshaws and living a 3rd century BC lifestyle. Theye ensured the Soviets rose to their ultimate heights, and then modern Russia. Theye conceived and fed all these "terrorist" organizations.

    What's the payoff? Power. Make conditions such that the frightened people hand over their consent to your demented and evil designs, smiling and thankful that someone is keeping them safe. For Christ's sake, you can't make this stuff up.

    We are being played at every turn by very clever and ruthless people.

    (Don't bother to answer, all the people with integrity abandoned this place long ago, and I have zero respect for the legions of hypocrites left.)
    I see, so now I am a hypocrite? Show us. You made the assertion; now pony up.

    Your statement also raises the question of what your continuing presence here makes you.
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  10. #68
    The government enablers know how to set things up so that they can never, ever, go away, because of the situation you, and millions of others just like you, are in.

    The sad truth is that it will go away, just not on our terms, but the cold hard terms of economic reality.

    One of the untold horrors of the 20th century were the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of people left in lurch when the USSR collapsed.

    Many of those dependent on the Soviet system were reduced to utter poverty, many were left homeless, but many just died.

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Well hold on now. Let us stop and think on this for just a moment. Obama and a traitorous Congress saddled us with BammyCare over the course of eight years. Let us not forget that we are talking of what is essentially the largest market monopoly in the nation, speaking for the full 320++ millions of people. That's a very large ship that does not come about on a dime.

    Before blowing a gasket, stop to think of what it would mean in real terms if Congress were to repeal BammyCare on Monday, cold turkey. Imagine people such as my wife who just underwent an 11-hour surgery, still in the hospital recovering. They are in a near-death state and in need of the closest monitoring and care. Were their means of paying for all that to go <poof> from one minute to another, chaos would ensue for millions, with plenty dying. Some hospitals would face terrible financial crises. In short, we'd be in a world of trouble.

    Some people might say, "so what?". That's easy when you are in great health. Not so hot when you are in need of help.

    Getting this huge vessel on another heading is going to take time, and the change from present course to ultimate will almost certainly have to come in stages.

    Recall what I have been writing lately about incremental change. It has taken America 228 years to get to this sorry pass. Even under the best of plausible circumstances, it is going to take many years to make good headway from the precipice at which we now find ourselves.



    The justification is the avoidance of crashing the "medical economy", which will certainly result in disasters for endless numbers of people. "Government", whether traitorous or merely inept, got us into this at the point of the sword. They are responsible for this fiasco and now have to take a staged approach away. I have NO idea whether all this talk issuing from Trump, Congress, etc. can be taken at face, or if its all just more bull$#@! designed to paint us into a different but equally lousy corner. I only know that cold-turkey would be a bad thing for huge numbers of people.

    This is the bed we have allowed Themme to make for us. We must now lie in it until such time, hopefully, as we direct those we have hired to get us out of this mess.

    Orthogonal point: this is a grand example of just how completely ill-architected our Constitution is and, far more significantly, how spectacularly we as a people have failed ourselves. We are more concerned with getting that new BMW in Teal Orchid Vomit and fretting over whether our girlfriends will master the craft of the blowjob, than we are with our freedoms. Theye have long ago assumed positions to which they had no right, and our forbears just sat idly by like ignorant, dull-witted miscreants and let them. It is high time we become a warrior culture. Otherwise, let us dispense with all this phony baloney pretense of being "free", lay down, and be openly that which we have become: low-rent whores willing to sell ourselves cheaply for the most meager of token offerings.



    Nothing comes immediately to mind, but we cannot just shut it off. Theye have been very clever, having us locked in a self-reinforcing loop that could cause terrible harms in the event it is tampered with in the "wrong" ways.

    Just look at the military. We are now talking of TRILLIONS of dollars PER YEAR. This doesn't even rise to absurdity. Now think of the ways in which US foreign policy has been altered and carried forth just since 2001's most infamous day. We have pissed off a huge portion of the world, have "secretly" (har har har) given birth to organizations such as this so-called "ISIS", and helped set the global stage in such fashion that we cannot, under these prevailing conditions, afford to step-down our military.

    Theye created modern China - not the Chinese - for without America, China would still be pulling rickshaws and living a 3rd century BC lifestyle. Theye ensured the Soviets rose to their ultimate heights, and then modern Russia. Theye conceived and fed all these "terrorist" organizations.

    What's the payoff? Power. Make conditions such that the frightened people hand over their consent to your demented and evil designs, smiling and thankful that someone is keeping them safe. For Christ's sake, you can't make this stuff up.

    We are being played at every turn by very clever and ruthless people.



    I see, so now I am a hypocrite? Show us. You made the assertion; now pony up.

    Your statement also raises the question of what your continuing presence here makes you.

  11. #69
    Bump.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
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  12. #70
    Trump isn't going to endorse this. I think he would sign it if it somehow got through to him, but he's wiped his hands clean of Obamacare and his supporters do not care.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    His district was consistently in the top 10 districts receiving pork and he created a laughable excuse for it.
    I see nothing unprincipled about his district receiving that port or his excuse. It was a flawless argument.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    So have any other Republicans presented anything?
    Yes. There are at least two repeal Obamacare bills that have been introduced in the House besides the one they just cancelled the vote on.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Yes, because Rand. Some of us have hope that Rand having influence here will result in a better outcome than other options that come from crony politicians and their lobbyist masters.
    Well, even though Rand got a jump on them, the crony backroom establishment still tried to ram their RyanCare plan down our throats. At least Rand and the Freedom Caucus prevented that from happening.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

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