View Poll Results: Snowden-traitor or hero?

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  • Traitor/general bad guy

    0 0%
  • hero

    4 100.00%
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Thread: How do you feel about Snowden nowadays?

  1. #1

    Question How do you feel about Snowden nowadays?

    I have mixed feelings since a comrade referred me to this toady: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fabl...den-1483143143 If it's true he's not as heroic as he seemed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I have mixed feelings since a comrade referred me to this toady: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fabl...den-1483143143 If it's true he's not as heroic as he seemed.
    Wants me to subscribe or sign in so I cannot comment as to the article. He exposed the extent to which the government conducts surveillance on it's citizens. I don't really care why he did it.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 01-08-2017 at 10:21 AM.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Wants me to subscribe or sign in so I cannot comment as to the article. He exposed the extent to which the government conducts surveillance on it's citizens. I don't really care why he did it.
    This ^^^

    Hero.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    .wsj.com/
    Fake News.

    I wouldn't worry about efforts to change the subject. ( govt spying)
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Wants me to subscribe or sign in so I cannot comment as to the article. He exposed the extent to which the government conducts surveillance on it's citizens. I don't really care why he did it.
    Sorry. Here's the full text copypasta:
    Of all the lies that Edward Snowden has told since his massive theft of secrets from the National Security Agency and his journey to Russia via Hong Kong in 2013, none is more provocative than the claim that he never intended to engage in espionage, and was only a “whistleblower” seeking to expose the overreach of NSA’s information gathering. With the clock ticking on Mr. Snowden’s chance of a pardon, now is a good time to review what we have learned about his real mission.

    Mr. Snowden’s theft of America’s most closely guarded communication secrets occurred in May 2013, according to the criminal complaint filed against him by federal prosecutors the following month. At the time Mr. Snowden was a 29-year-old technologist working as an analyst-in-training for the consulting firm of Booz Allen Hamilton at the regional base of the National Security Agency (NSA) in Oahu, Hawaii. On May 20, only some six weeks after his job there began, he failed to show up for work, emailing his supervisor that he was at the hospital being tested for epilepsy.

    This excuse was untrue. Mr. Snowden was not even in Hawaii. He was in Hong Kong. He had flown there with a cache of secret data that he had stolen from the NSA.

    This was not the only lie Mr. Snowden told. As became clear during my investigation over the past three years, nearly every element of the narrative Mr. Snowden has provided, which reached its final iteration in Oliver Stone’s 2016 movie, “Snowden,” is demonstrably false.
    This narrative began soon after Mr. Snowden arrived in Hong Kong, where he arranged to meet with Laura Poitras, a Berlin-based documentary filmmaker, and Glenn Greenwald, a Brazil-based blogger for the Guardian. Both journalists were longtime critics of NSA surveillance with whom Mr. Snowden (under the alias Citizen Four) had been in contact for four months.

    To provide them with scoops discrediting NSA operations, Mr. Snowden culled several thousand documents out of his huge cache of stolen material, including two explosive documents he asked them to use in their initial stories. One was the now-famous secret order from America’s Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court requiring Verizon to turn over to the NSA its billing records for its phone users in the U.S. The other was an NSA slide presentation detailing its ability to intercept communications of non-American users of the internet via a joint program with the FBI code-named Prism.

    These documents were published in 2013 on June 5 and 6, followed by a video in which he identified himself as the leaker and a whistleblower.

    At the heart of Mr. Snowden’s narrative was his claim that while he may have incidentally “touched” other data in his search of NSA files, he took only documents that exposed the malfeasance of the NSA and gave all of them to journalists.

    Yet even as Mr. Snowden’s narrative was taking hold in the public realm, a secret damage assessment done by the NSA and Pentagon told a very different story. According to a unanimous report declassified on Dec. 22 by the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the investigation showed that Mr. Snowden had “removed” (not merely touched) 1.5 million documents. That huge number was based on, among other evidence, electronic logs that recorded the selection, copying and moving of documents.

    The number of purloined documents is more than what NSA officials were willing to say in 2013 about the removal of data, possibly because the House committee had the benefit of the Pentagon’s more-extensive investigation. But even just taking into account the material that Mr. Snowden handed over to journalists, the December House report concluded that he compromised “secrets that protect American troops overseas and secrets that provide vital defenses against terrorists and nation-states.” These were, the report said, “merely the tip of the iceberg.”

    The Pentagon’s investigation during 2013 and 2014 employed hundreds of military-intelligence officers, working around the clock, to review all 1.5 million documents. Most had nothing to do with domestic surveillance or whistle blowing. They were mainly military secrets, as Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, testified before the House Armed Services Committee on March 6, 2014.
    It was not the quantity of Mr. Snowden’s theft but the quality that was most telling. Mr. Snowden’s theft put documents at risk that could reveal the NSA’s Level 3 tool kit—a reference to documents containing the NSA’s most-important sources and methods. Since the agency was created in 1952, Russia and other adversary nations had been trying to penetrate its Level-3 secrets without great success.
    Yet it was precisely these secrets that Mr. Snowden changed jobs to steal. In an interview in Hong Kong’s South China Morning Post on June 15, 2013, he said he sought to work on a Booz Allen contract at the CIA, even at a cut in pay, because it gave him access to secret lists of computers that the NSA was tapping into around the world.

    He evidently succeeded. In a 2014 interview with Vanity Fair, Richard Ledgett, the NSA executive who headed the damage-assessment team, described one lengthy document taken by Mr. Snowden that, if it fell into the wrong hands, would provide a “road map” to what targets abroad the NSA was, and was not, covering. It contained the requests made by the 17 U.S. services in the so-called Intelligence Community for NSA interceptions abroad.

    On June 23, less than two weeks after Mr. Snowden released the video that helped present his narrative, he left Hong Kong and flew to Moscow, where he received protection by the Russian government. In much of the media coverage that followed, the ultimate destination of these stolen secrets was fogged over—if not totally obscured from the public—by the unverified claims that Mr. Snowden was spoon feeding to handpicked journalists.

    In his narrative, Mr. Snowden always claims that he was a conscientious “whistleblower” who turned over all the stolen NSA material to journalists in Hong Kong. He has insisted he had no intention of defecting to Russia but was on his way to Latin America when he was trapped in Russia by the U.S. government in an attempt to demonize him.

    For example, in October 2014, he told the editor of the Nation, “I’m in exile. My government revoked my passport intentionally to leave me exiled” and “chose to keep me in Russia.” According to Mr. Snowden, the U.S. government accomplished this entrapment by suspending his passport while he was in midair after he departed Hong Kong on June 23, thus forcing him into the hands of President Vladimir Putin’s regime.

    None of this is true. The State Department invalidated Mr. Snowden’s passport while he was still in Hong Kong, not after he left for Moscow on June 23. The “Consul General-Hong Kong confirmed that Hong Kong authorities were notified that Mr. Snowden’s passport was revoked June 22,” according to the State Department’s senior watch officer, as reported by ABC news on June 23, 2013.

    Mr. Snowden could not have been unaware of the government’s pursuit of him, since the criminal complaint against him, which was filed June 14, had been headline news in Hong Kong. That the U.S. acted against him while he was still in Hong Kong is of great importance to the timeline because it points to the direct involvement of Aeroflot, an airline which the Russian government effectively controls. Aeroflot bypassed its normal procedures to allow Mr. Snowden to board the Moscow flight—even though he had neither a valid passport nor a Russian visa, as his newly assigned lawyer, Anatoly Kucherena, said at a press conference in Russia on July 12, 2013.

    By falsely claiming his passport was invalidated after the plane departed Hong Kong—instead of before he left—Mr. Snowden hoped to conceal this extraordinary waiver. The Russian government further revealed its helping hand, judging by a report in Russia’s Izvestia newspaper when, on arrival, Mr. Snowden was taken off the plane by a security team in a “special operation.”
    Nor was it any kind of accident. Vladimir Putin personally authorized this assistance after Mr. Snowden met with Russian officials in Hong Kong, as Mr. Putin admitted in a televised press conference on Sept. 2, 2013.

    To provide a smokescreen for Mr. Snowden’s escape from Hong Kong, WikiLeaks (an organization that the Obama administration asserted to be a tool of Russian intelligence after the hacking of Democratic Party leaders’ email in 2016) booked a dozen or more diversionary flight reservations to other destinations for Mr. Snowden.

    WikiLeaks co-founder Julian Assange also dispatched Sarah Harrison, his deputy at WikiLeaks, to fly to Hong Kong to pay Mr. Snowden’s expenses and escort him to Moscow. In short, Mr. Snowden’s arrival in Moscow was neither accidental nor the work of the U.S. government.
    Mr. Snowden’s own narrative asserts that he came to Russia not only empty-handed but without access to any of the stolen material. He wrote in Vanity Fair in 2014 that he had destroyed all of it before arriving in Moscow—the very data that he went to such lengths to steal a few weeks earlier in Hawaii.

    As it turns out, this claim is also untrue. It is belied by two Kremlin insiders who were in a position to know what Mr. Snowden actually brought with him to Moscow. One of them, Frants Klintsevich, was the first deputy chairman of the defense and security committee of the Duma (Russia’s parliament) at the time of Mr. Snowden’s defection. “Let’s be frank,” Mr. Klintsevich said in a taped interview with NPR in June 2016, “Mr. Snowden did share intelligence. This is what security services do.”

    The other insider was Anatoly Kucherena, a well-connected Moscow lawyer and Mr. Putin’s friend. Mr. Kucherena served as the intermediary between Mr. Snowden and Russian authorities. On Sept. 23, 2013, Mr. Kucherena gave a long interview to Sophie Shevardnadze, a journalist for Russia Today television.

    When Ms. Shevardnadze directly asked him if Mr. Snowden had given all the documents he had taken from the NSA to journalists in Hong Kong, Mr. Kucherena said Mr. Snowden had only given “some” of the NSA’s documents in his possession to journalists in Hong Kong. “So he [Mr. Snowden] does have some materials that haven’t been made public yet?” Ms. Shevardnadze asked. “Certainly,” Mr. Kucherena answered.
    This disclosure filled in a crucial piece of the puzzle. It explained why NSA documents that Mr. Snowden had copied, but had not given to the journalists in Hong Kong—such as the embarrassing revelation about the NSA targeting the cellphone of German Chancellor Angela Merkel—continued to surface after Mr. Snowden arrived in Moscow, along with NSA documents released via WikiLeaks.

    As this was a critical discrepancy in Mr. Snowden’s narrative, I went to Moscow in October 2015 to see Mr. Kucherena. During our conversation, Mr. Kucherena confirmed that his interview with Ms. Shevardnadze was accurate, and that Mr. Snowden had brought secret material with him to Moscow.

    Mr. Snowden’s narrative also includes the assertion that he was neither debriefed by nor even met with any Russian government official after he arrived in Moscow. This part of the narrative runs counter to findings of U.S. intelligence. According to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence report, Mr. Snowden, since he arrived in Moscow, “has had, and continues to have, contact with Russian intelligence services.” This finding is consistent with Russian debriefing practices, as described by the ex-KGB officers with whom I spoke in Moscow
    Mr. Snowden also publicly claimed in Moscow in December 2013 to have secrets in his head, including “access to every target, every active operation. Full lists of them.” Could Mr. Snowden’s Russian hosts ignore such an opportunity after Mr. Putin had authorized his exfiltration to Moscow? Mr. Snowden, with no exit options, was in the palm of their hands. Under such circumstances, as Mr. Klintsevich pointed out in his June NPR interview: “If there’s a possibility to get information, they [the Russian intelligence services] will get it.”

    The transfer of state secrets from Mr. Snowden to Russia did not occur in a vacuum. The intelligence war did not end with the termination of the Cold War; it shifted to cyberspace. Even if Russia could not match the NSA’s state-of-the-art sensors, computers and productive partnerships with the cipher services of Britain, Israel, Germany and other allies, it could nullify the U.S. agency’s edge by obtaining its sources and methods from even a single contractor with access to Level 3 documents.

    Russian intelligence uses a single umbrella term to cover anyone who delivers it secret intelligence. Whether a person acted out of idealistic motives, sold information for money or remained clueless of the role he or she played in the transfer of secrets—the provider of secret data is considered an “espionage source.” By any measure, it is a job description that fits Mr. Snowden.

    Mr. Epstein’s book, “How America Lost Its Secrets: Edward Snowden, the Man and the Theft,” will be published by Knopf in January.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 01-08-2017 at 03:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  7. #6
    At the heart of Mr. Snowden’s narrative was his claim that while he may have incidentally “touched” other data in his search of NSA files, he took only documents that exposed the malfeasance of the NSA and gave all of them to journalists.
    Yet even as Mr. Snowden’s narrative was taking hold in the public realm, a secret damage assessment done by the NSA and Pentagon told a very different story. According to a unanimous report declassified on Dec. 22 by the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the investigation showed that Mr. Snowden had “removed” (not merely touched) 1.5 million documents. That huge number was based on, among other evidence, electronic logs that recorded the selection, copying and moving of documents.
    The number of purloined documents is more than what NSA officials were willing to say in 2013 about the removal of data, possibly because the House committee had the benefit of the Pentagon’s more-extensive investigation. But even just taking into account the material that Mr. Snowden handed over to journalists, the December House report concluded that he compromised “secrets that protect American troops overseas and secrets that provide vital defenses against terrorists and nation-states.” These were, the report said, “merely the tip of the iceberg.”
    I would've done the same thing for life insurance. The US wasn't going to let him get away with it so he took stuff that he could sell. Did he even take what they say the took? I dunno. Did he sell the info? I dunno that either but if he did, it doesn't change my opinion of him in the least.

    Hero.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  8. #7
    Dang HB never formats worth a darn.

  9. #8
    O.k so this journalist starts his narrative by calling out a lie that Snowden told. Saying he was calling in sick when he really wasn't.
    $#@!ing A-Plus-Good reporting there, Einstein, er, Epstein. Perhaps he told this lie because he was on the run because he knew that once his information was published he would have sat before a kangaroo court on espionage charges?
    So with the narrative set that Snowden is a liar the journalist goes on to quote everything anyone that is a part of a Government entity as gospel. I'm surprised he didn't quote Clapper.

    So, no. This "article" does not change my mind. It reads like a C.I.A. propaganda piece to me.



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  11. #9
    Consider the source. Wall Street Journal

    Of all the lies that Edward Snowden has told since his massive theft of secrets from the National Security Agency and his journey to Russia via Hong Kong in 2013, none is more provocative than the claim that he never intended to engage in espionage, and was only a “whistleblower” seeking to expose the overreach of NSA’s information gathering.
    Truth is TREASON in the Empire of Lies.

    No information should ever be able to damage the reputation of a government that truly serves the people.

    That being said, there is a legitimate need for Classified, Secret, and Top Secret information. Such as military strategy, security codes, etc. Some things, such as details of a specific military operation should only be classified as so long as the conclusion of that military operation. Once that operation has concluded, there should be "nothing to hide". Yes, we attacked so and so on such and such a date by doing this, in order to achieve this. Prior to conducting that operation, revealing that information could compromise the mission, but after it is all said and done, they should be the ones with "nothing to hide" from us. Sadly, this is the exact opposite of the way they treat information. "The public has no 'Right' to know what we have done, but it is okay if we spy on every aspect of our citizens lives." That is the mentality of Servants of Tyranny.

    IMHO, Snowden is a HERO for revealing that which they do not want revealed: a true Agenda against the best interests of the people of the world, not just the US.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  12. #10
    $#@! a bunch of War Street Journal.

    Hero.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Dang HB never formats worth a darn.
    FIFY. My copypasta tends to be lazy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    FIFY. My copypasta tends to be lazy.
    I was just messing with you, man.

    Thanks for going back and doing that, though.

  15. #13

  16. #14
    As it turns out, this claim is also untrue. It is belied by two Kremlin insiders who were in a position to know what Mr. Snowden actually brought with him to Moscow. One of them, Frants Klintsevich, was the first deputy chairman of the defense and security committee of the Duma (Russia’s parliament) at the time of Mr. Snowden’s defection. “Let’s be frank,” Mr. Klintsevich said in a taped interview with NPR in June 2016, “Mr. Snowden did share intelligence. This is what security services do.”
    He broke his contract and the law. I have always thought he should go to prison but didn't think he should be executed because I thought he did this in good faith. I do think the collection of bulk phone data is unconstitutional and that should mitigate his punishment.

    If it is true that he shared secrets with the Russians he should be executed without question just like Jonathan Pollard should have been executed and just like Bradley Manning should have been executed. The stakes are too high and the punishment has to act as a deterrent as well as justice for putting lives at risk. Hopefully this story is more complex and Snowden gets to put forward his perspective on trial.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    He broke his contract and the law. I have always thought he should go to prison but didn't think he should be executed because I thought he did this in good faith. I do think the collection of bulk phone data is unconstitutional and that should mitigate his punishment.

    If it is true that he shared secrets with the Russians he should be executed without question just like Jonathan Pollard should have been executed and just like Bradley Manning should have been executed. The stakes are too high and the punishment has to act as a deterrent as well as justice for putting lives at risk. Hopefully this story is more complex and Snowden gets to put forward his perspective on trial.
    Bull$#@!.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    He broke his contract and the law.
    That's what the intelligence community did. Which heads of these organizations and functionaries have stood before a kangaroo court?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    That's what the intelligence community did. Which heads of these organizations and functionaries have stood before a kangaroo court?
    For real.

    They committed treason and shredded the bill of rights, and Snowden is the bad guy somehow?

    $#@! all that.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    For real.

    They committed treason and shredded the bill of rights, and Snowden is the bad guy somehow?

    $#@! all that.
    Sharing secrets with foreign countries is never okay whether it is Israel with Pollard or potentially Russia with Snowden. That is a completely separate issue from the the bulk data collection which I think does violate the 4th Amendment. Exposing something unconstitutional isn't a get out of jail free card to commit other crimes. If he actually did voluntary give US secrets to Russia, he has to be executed. I am not going to take something in the WSJ as fact. He should be given a fair hearing.

    Even though I agree the data collection program is unconstitutional, I am not the one who determines that and neither are you and neither is Snowden. We have courts to make that decision. I think almost every government regulation from licensing laws, to minimum wage laws, to anti-discrimination laws as well as Medicare and Social Security are all clearly unconstitutional. They all violate the 14th Amendment. My opinion is not the decider and if I break those laws I should face the consequences. Progressives have all sorts of crazy ideas about what rights are and what Constitution say. I don't want them interpreting the law on their own, just like Snowden can't and I can't. You have to have some sort of objective standard.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Sharing secrets with foreign countries is never okay whether it is Israel with Pollard or potentially Russia with Snowden. That is a completely separate issue from the the bulk data collection which I think does violate the 4th Amendment. Exposing something unconstitutional isn't a get out of jail free card to commit other crimes. If he actually did voluntary give US secrets to Russia, he has to be executed. I am not going to take something in the WSJ as fact. He should be given a fair hearing.

    Even though I agree the data collection program is unconstitutional, I am not the one who determines that and neither are you and neither is Snowden. We have courts to make that decision. I think almost every government regulation from licensing laws, to minimum wage laws, to anti-discrimination laws as well as Medicare and Social Security are all clearly unconstitutional. They all violate the 14th Amendment. My opinion is not the decider and if I break those laws I should face the consequences. Progressives have all sorts of crazy ideas about what rights are and what Constitution say. I don't want them interpreting the law on their own, just like Snowden can't and I can't. You have to have some sort of objective standard.
    If found guilty, would you feel comfortable executing him yourself? Or, as I already know the answer, would you rely on one of your so called representatives to commit the murder?

    You are what is wrong with America.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Bull$#@!.
    x2

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.
    Petraeus wasn't executed for giving classified documents to his girlfriend. As a matter of fact, he got two years probation and 100,000.00 fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Sharing secrets with foreign countries is never okay whether it is Israel with Pollard or potentially Russia with Snowden. That is a completely separate issue from the the bulk data collection which I think does violate the 4th Amendment. Exposing something unconstitutional isn't a get out of jail free card to commit other crimes. If he actually did voluntary give US secrets to Russia, he has to be executed. I am not going to take something in the WSJ as fact. He should be given a fair hearing.

    Even though I agree the data collection program is unconstitutional, I am not the one who determines that and neither are you and neither is Snowden. We have courts to make that decision. I think almost every government regulation from licensing laws, to minimum wage laws, to anti-discrimination laws as well as Medicare and Social Security are all clearly unconstitutional. They all violate the 14th Amendment. My opinion is not the decider and if I break those laws I should face the consequences. Progressives have all sorts of crazy ideas about what rights are and what Constitution say. I don't want them interpreting the law on their own, just like Snowden can't and I can't. You have to have some sort of objective standard.
    This has to be satire.

    We have courts to make that decision.
    LOLOL, I wouldn't trust my life and liberty to those courts unless I was drug in there and had no choice. If you're being serious you have a very naive view of just what a "fair hearing" he would get.

    Oh, and hero. Thank you Snowden for exposing our control freak government.
    "The Patriarch"

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    If found guilty, would you feel comfortable executing him yourself? Or, as I already know the answer, would you rely on one of your so called representatives to commit the murder?

    You are what is wrong with America.
    I made my post because I knew it would be a differing opinion. I made a reasonable point and you offered no rebuttal. Your intolerance of other viewpoints is what is wrong.

    We have a division of labor and switch puller is not really the vocation that I want. But I would have no problem pulling the switch myself if the evidence suggested he shared secrets with Russia. So you didn't already know the answer.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This has to be satire.

    I know it. How kooky of me for wanting to punish someone for sharing secrets with a foreign country (if he did.) Non-satiracal question: If Snowden shared secrets with Russia, what is the difference between him and Benedict Arnold?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    x2



    Petraeus wasn't executed for giving classified documents to his girlfriend. As a matter of fact, he got two years probation and 100,000.00 fine.
    Unless there was info there I am not aware of , that was a very excessive fine .
    Do something Danke



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  29. #25
    The Colonists were purportedly fighting for liberty. Such claims cannot be made about today's government with a straight face. And if Benedict Arnold had revealed George and the boys were really just trying to cut out the king and rule themselves instead history may have judged him differently.
    "The Patriarch"

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I know it. How kooky of me for wanting to punish someone for sharing secrets with a foreign country (if he did.) Non-satiracal question: If Snowden shared secrets with Russia, what is the difference between him and Benedict Arnold?
    The govt made Arnold defect by the poor treatment ( failing to pay for war items he had paid for and claiming he owed them more ) . He went to work for the people that actually paid him .
    Do something Danke

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I made my post because I knew it would be a differing opinion. I made a reasonable point and you offered no rebuttal. Your intolerance of other viewpoints is what is wrong.

    We have a division of labor and switch puller is not really the vocation that I want. But I would have no problem pulling the switch myself if the evidence suggested he shared secrets with Russia. So you didn't already know the answer.
    One police state discovered secrets about another...and that's worth a man's life?

    I repeat: bull$#@!.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This has to be satire.



    LOLOL, I wouldn't trust my life and liberty to those courts unless I was drug in there and had no choice. If you're being serious you have a very naive view of just what a "fair hearing" he would get.

    Oh, and hero. Thank you Snowden for exposing our control freak government.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Origanalist again.
    Pretty sure krugminator is a satire account. Perhaps troll, not sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  33. #29
    To provide them with scoops discrediting NSA operations, Mr. Snowden culled several thousand documents out of his huge cache of stolen material
    So now, even Russia has my dick pics??
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I made my post because I knew it would be a differing opinion. I made a reasonable point and you offered no rebuttal. Your intolerance of other viewpoints is what is wrong.

    We have a division of labor and switch puller is not really the vocation that I want. But I would have no problem pulling the switch myself if the evidence suggested he shared secrets with Russia. So you didn't already know the answer.
    The point you claim is reasonable is anything but. Had it been reasonable, I might have offered a more substantive explanation of why your authoritarian horse$#@! is indeed, authoritarian horse$#@!.

    You see, your devotion to the state would be what ought be dismissed. I suppose you are offended by pieces of flag fabric touching the dirt.

    You are a zealot. The same as any authoritarian extremist except you feel you are cultured and feel that you are legitimate to act in such a way.. the same as any authoritarian.

    The division of responsibility. The cornerstone of democracy.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

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