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Thread: Ford to scrap Mexico plant, invest in Michigan; CEO cites Trump policies

  1. #1

    Ford to scrap Mexico plant, invest in Michigan; CEO cites Trump policies

    Ford to scrap Mexico plant, invest in Michigan; CEO cites Trump policies

    Before he's even taken office, President-elect Donald Trump has proven to be quite the job creator.

    Ford Motor Company announced Tuesday it will cancel a $1.6 billion plant planned for Mexico and will instead invest $700 million in a Michigan assembly plant, directly tying the decision to “pro-growth policies” championed by President-elect Donald Trump.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...lar+Content%29
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  3. #2
    So, that's 700 more families in SE MI that will have a member back working in manufacturing and either off unemployment or lower wage jobs that could be freed up for youngsters looking to get into the job market.

  4. #3
    Yet, as any trade economist understands, the truth is trade neither creates nor destroys jobs.

    When imports increase, jobs frequently are lost in domestic industries that compete with those imports. This is all many voters see. What they don’t realize is these very same imports create jobs elsewhere in the economy.

    More than half of all imports are intermediate components or raw materials that go into the production of other goods and services. When international trade makes these materials and parts cheaper and more widely available, the domestic industries that use these items become more competitive, enabling them to sell more products, which results in expansion and increases in jobs.

    Similarly, when foreigners receive dollars by exporting to the United States they’re able to buy more, which increases the market for U.S. exports. This, too, powers economic expansion and boosts employment in U.S. export industries.

    International trade changes the mix, not the number, of jobs in the United States. In fact, the classic economic case for free trade rests on the reshuffling of jobs. The reshuffling allows American workers to perform the tasks at which they are relatively more productive, while foreigners do the same.

    Exit polls showed only a small minority (fewer than 13 percent) of voters in the Rust Belt battleground states understood international trade has no net effect on the number of jobs. Candidate Trump benefited from their ignorance.

    If Mr. Trump runs for re-election in four years, voters are likely to care less about his rhetoric and more about the state of the economy. The protectionist policies he promoted during the campaign would shrink the economy and make the United States poorer.

    President Trump will have to choose between candidate Trump’s promises. He can embrace international trade and contribute to making America great, or he can follow his protectionist rhetoric at the expense of American greatness. But he can’t have it both ways.

    https://fee.org/articles/protectioni...oor-not-great/

    Instead of helping America develop new technologies, Trump proposes to trap us in the old ones. This isn't Atlas we're seeing free himself. This is Anthem, coming to reality.

    It isn't even good Keynesian economics.

    The challenge for the authors is that the impartial arbiters concluded that the tax plan of Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump will cost the US government $2.6 trillion in revenue over 10 years. Mr. Trump wants his tax proposal to be “revenue neutral” so his advisors need to fill that hole.

    By their own reckoning they come close, finding $2.374 trillion in additional revenue. They do this by imputing positive growth effects to various trade, regulatory, and energy reforms and then calculating the tax raised on these increments to GDP. The imputed trade policy component of additional revenue is $1.74 trillion or almost three-quarters of the projected total. So trade policy is central to the Trump story.

    Unfortunately, the thinking that gets them the $1.74 trillion figure is truly magical. The authors observe that between 1947 and 2001 (the good old days, when America was great), the economy grew at 3.5 percent annually. Since then it has grown at an average of 1.9 percent. They allude to the idea that demographics—lower labor for growth and a rising dependency ratio—might have something to do with it, only to dismiss this explanation. They entirely ignore the ongoing debate about the sources of productivity growth and the possibility that the rate of technological change is slowing. Instead, they focus on trade. Or more specifically, “disastrous” trade agreements.

    And how do they get that $1.74 trillion in revenue? They observe that the United States has a $500 billion deficit in merchandise goods and services…and then they make it disappear! (Luis Borges would be proud.) But don’t believe me, here it is in their own words (link is external) (emphasis added):

    “To score the benefits of eliminating trade deficit drag, we don’t need any complex computer model. We simply add up most (if not all) of the tax revenues and capital expenditures that would be gained if the trade deficit were eliminated. We have modeled only the impacts of implicit profits and wages, not any other economic aspect of the increased activity.

    Trump proposes eliminating America’s $500 billion trade deficit through a combination of increased exports and reduced imports. Again assuming labor is 44 percent of GDP, eliminating the deficit would result in $220 billion of additional wages. This additional wage income would be taxed at an effective rate of 28 percent (including trust taxes), yielding additional tax revenues of $61.6 billion.

    In addition, businesses would earn at least a 15% profit margin on the $500 billion of incremental revenues, and this translates into pretax profits of $75 billion. Applying Trump’s 15% corporate tax rate, this results in an additional $11.25 billion of taxes.

    This leaves businesses with $63.75 billion of additional net profit which must be distributed between dividends and retained earnings. If businesses pay out one third of this additional profit as dividends and these $21.25 billion worth of dividends are taxed at a rate of 18%, this yields another $3.8 billion of taxes, after which there remains $17.45 billion of net income.

    Together, these tax revenues from wage, corporate, and dividend income total $76.68 billion per year and over the standard ten-year budget window, this recurring contribution to the economy cumulates to $766.8 billion dollars of additional tax revenue.

    To this total, we must add at least two more increments of revenues. Under the dividend payout schedule, we have noted that businesses will retain $42.5 billion of cash flow after paying both taxes and dividends.

    Reinvesting this $42.5 billion each year at even as subpar a return as 5 percent pretax per year on the cumulating balances invested and assuming reinvestment of the post tax proceeds each year at the same 5 percent pretax return generates another $120.21 billion of pretax profits and taxes of $18.04 billion over the standard 10-year budget window. Adding these increments to the previous calculation results in a ten-year direct incremental contribution to Federal tax revenues of $766.8 billion in 2016 dollars.

    Since taxes are paid in nominal, not real, dollars, we have applied to them a 1.1082 inflation factor for a total of $869.76 billion of incremental tax revenues over the ten years from the elimination of the trade deficit.

    This is an intermediate calculation. To account for multiplier effects, we must add our conservative multiplier of 1.0 (versus the National Association of Manufacturers’ 1.81 multiplier). This produces a grand total from trade of $1.74 trillion of additional Federal tax revenues.”

    Maybe it reads better in Spanish.

    Economists generally believe that the magnitude of a nation’s trade deficit fundamentally reflects the difference between saving and investment—if you are consuming more than you produce, you run a deficit, if you produce more than you consume you run a surplus. Trade policy can affect the sectoral and geographic composition of the deficit, but in the long run, the trade balance is determined by the saving-investment balance. If you want to lower the nation’s trade deficit, increasing the saving rate, not launching a trade war would be the right place to start. But there is not a word of this in “Scoring the Trump Economic Plan: Trade, Regulatory, and Energy Policy Impacts.” It’s all perfidious foreigners and incompetent trade negotiators instead. Maybe that makes for a better plot. But it does not constitute a persuasive defense of a questionable tax plan or a solution to the trade deficit. Quite the opposite—it’s another instance of the type of magical thinking best reserved for fictional realities.

    https://piie.com/blogs/trade-investm...gical-thinking

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by FSP-Rebel View Post
    So, that's 700 more families in SE MI that will have a member back working in manufacturing and either off unemployment or lower wage jobs that could be freed up for youngsters looking to get into the job market.
    yeah, that's really gotta butthurt the globalist anarchists around here parts.

  6. #5
    Good...about damn time.

    Wealth is created by value added creation/manufacturing, taking raw goods and turning them into valuable items that people want.

    Thus it has always been and will always be, until the robot overlords take over.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    yeah, that's really gotta butthurt the globalist anarchists around here parts.
    Yup. The globalist mud hut crowd is seething I'm sure.

    700 more families that will also benefit from increased household income, thus spurring even more economic growth as they buy more and more expensive goods and services.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Instead of helping America develop new technologies, Trump proposes to trap us in the old ones. This isn't Atlas we're seeing free himself. This is Anthem, coming to reality.

    It isn't even good Keynesian economics.
    Oh don't you worry they are definitely developing new technologies, one in which I am not so happy about, nonetheless.

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/28/tech...f-driving-new/

    And VW is in the works with deals to sell self-driving cars.
    http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/5/13...-on-demand-car

    2017: The Year of Self-Driving Cars and Trucks
    http://spectrum.ieee.org/transportat...ars-and-trucks
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Instead of helping America develop new technologies, Trump proposes to trap us in the old ones. This isn't Atlas we're seeing free himself. This is Anthem, coming to reality.

    It isn't even good Keynesian economics.
    But the jobs tho
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  11. #9
    Tariff or income tax; they are both taxes. The idea that the government can tax our nation to prosperity is one I will never understand.

  12. #10
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...mp-s-criticism

    The automaker would have made the same decision even without Trump’s involvement, Fields told Bloomberg Television today. U.S. buyers are simply not as interested in the small cars that are being built in Mexico, while electric vehicles and hybrids have the potential for growth, he said.

    “It is the wrong time to build new plants in Mexico,” Erik Gordon, a professor at the University of Michigan’s Ross School of Business, said in an e-mail. Ford will save money, “American jobs, and will avoid the risk of a border tax and a smack in the face from the new president.”
    Also after General Motors:

    Earlier today, Trump threatened to punish General Motors Co. for building a version of its fading compact car in Mexico, rekindling a months-old feud with the auto industry and earning a terse response from the company challenging his assertions.

    Trump said in a Twitter post that the largest U.S. automaker, which manufactures a Chevrolet Cruze hatchback model in San Luis Potosi, should build the car at home or face a hefty tariff. However, GM has sold only 4,900 such hatchbacks north of the border, said spokesman Tony Cervone. The almost 200,000 Cruze sedans that Americans have bought were all built in a plant in Lordstown, Ohio.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Instead of helping America develop new technologies, Trump proposes to trap us in the old ones. This isn't Atlas we're seeing free himself. This is Anthem, coming to reality.

    It isn't even good Keynesian economics.
    It takes time to develop new technologies, and then implement the new tech into consumer goods.

    I would rather first see people working decent jobs again and off the government teat, then gear up the new technologies.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    It's OK. He is going to keep doing this and democrats will vote him in in 2020. And you will be as always.

  15. #13
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dean.engelhardt View Post
    Tariff or income tax; they are both taxes. The idea that the government can tax our nation to prosperity is one I will never understand.
    Well you have to consider the imbalance that happens to the economy when there are imbalanced tariffs. Right now because of the imbalance in tariffs, goods are cheap for us, but we don't produce much. So all of the infrastructure investment goes overseas, along with the jobs. That worked ok for a long time, we had a lot of wealth and so the cheap goods were enticing. But eventually our wealth gets stripped and we become more and more heavily reliant on government and personal debt.

    Trump doesn't want high tariffs, he wants balanced tariffs. I'm sure if he could talk other countries into reducing their tariffs, instead of raising ours, he would do that.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    we don't produce much. So all of the infrastructure investment goes overseas, along with the jobs. That worked ok for a long time, we had a lot of wealth and so the cheap goods were enticing. But eventually our wealth gets stripped and we become more and more heavily reliant on government and personal debt.
    Manufacturing output is at an all time high. Average household income is at an all time high.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Manufacturing output is at an all time high. Average household income is at an all time high.
    I call bullsh*t on the manufacturing output. And average household income means squat if your purchasing power is half what it was 20 years ago.

    If you are trying to argue it's morning in America, I got a bunch of Trump voters for you to meet.



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  20. #17
    Technology has improved productivity even as human workers in manufacturing decline.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-...des-2016-03-28

    Think nothing is made in America? Output has doubled in three decades

    The U.S. manufacturing sector doesn’t get any respect.

    Ask a random sample of people on the street and you’re likely to hear that America doesn’t make anything anymore, that China, Mexico and Vietnam took all of our factories, and that the only jobs left in America are flipping burgers and cleaning hotel rooms.

    “Throughout history, at the center of any thriving country has been a thriving manufacturing sector,” says presidential candidate Donald Trump. “But under decades of failed leadership, the United States has gone from being the globe’s manufacturing powerhouse — the envy of the world — through a rapid deindustrialization.”

    As with all myths, there’s some element of truth in what everyone says.

    The number of jobs in the manufacturing sector has declined by about 5 million since 2000, falling from 17.3 million at the turn of the century to 12.3 million in 2015.

    During World War II, when America was the Arsenal of Democracy, manufacturing provided more than a third of civilian jobs in the U.S., but that share has declined to only 8.7% in 2015. Only one of every 11 jobs is in a factory. Retail, health care, professional and business services, and leisure and hospitality services now employ more workers than manufacturing does.

    The decline in manufacturing jobs certainly makes it seem as if America has been deindustrialized, but it’s not so. America still makes lots of stuff, but the number of jobs has shrunk because it doesn’t take nearly as many workers as it used to.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 01-03-2017 at 08:53 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Technology has improved productivity even as human workers in manufacturing decline.
    And that is why I will applaud Trump for every worker's job he saves. There are nearly double the amount of government functionaries than there are manufacturing workers. Unsustainable.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Technology has improved productivity even as human workers in manufacturing decline.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-...des-2016-03-28



    Those numbers are terrible...

    Someone needs to recalibrate the connunist.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Well you have to consider the imbalance that happens to the economy when there are imbalanced tariffs. Right now because of the imbalance in tariffs, goods are cheap for us, but we don't produce much. So all of the infrastructure investment goes overseas, along with the jobs. That worked ok for a long time, we had a lot of wealth and so the cheap goods were enticing. But eventually our wealth gets stripped and we become more and more heavily reliant on government and personal debt.

    Trump doesn't want high tariffs, he wants balanced tariffs. I'm sure if he could talk other countries into reducing their tariffs, instead of raising ours, he would do that.
    Very good point. I was not thinking of it as in relation to tariffs other countries put on our exports. I am still against it. Tariffs are still taxes that are ultimately paid by the consumer, so I consider it an inflationary tax.

    When Ford uses more expensive US labor to avoid a 35% tariff, they do not eat those costs, they pass them to the consumer. Pre-tariff' Ford was competing with Kia in the small car market, lets say they both sold a similar car for $20,000. Post tariff, Kia must sell the same car for $27,000 to pay the tariff costs. Do we think Ford will still sell the US made car for $20,000? There are two reason they will not; 1) They need to recouped the higher labor costs 2) Market pricing forces still apply even when the government forces the increase of import prices. Ford/GM and Chrysler still have a profit motive and will take as much profit as the market will bear.

    How about the products that are still cheaper to import after a 35% tariff, like most of the stuff in Wal-Mart and almost all textiles? US consumers ultimately pay that tax to the government. The only difference between this tariff and a 35% national sales taxes is that our money goes through an importer before it is handed to the US government.

    Sure it is nice to hear how Trump is saving hundreds of jobs, but we need to think about what it is gong to cost.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    yeah, that's really gotta butthurt the globalist anarchists around here parts.
    Who is this directed at? Let's leave aside for a moment that every supposed good thing about this was already refuted in the post directly above yours, and just ask - how can one be both a globalist and an anarchist?

    Don't decide who is butthurt until you understand whose butt you're talking about, what's getting put in it, and who is doing the stabbing. Because advocates of statelessness aren't any part of that equation WRT Ford and Trump.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Well you have to consider the imbalance that happens to the economy when there are imbalanced tariffs. Right now because of the imbalance in tariffs, goods are cheap for us, but we don't produce much. So all of the infrastructure investment goes overseas, along with the jobs. That worked ok for a long time, we had a lot of wealth and so the cheap goods were enticing. But eventually our wealth gets stripped and we become more and more heavily reliant on government and personal debt.

    Trump doesn't want high tariffs, he wants balanced tariffs. I'm sure if he could talk other countries into reducing their tariffs, instead of raising ours, he would do that.
    Examples of countries with high tariffs against US goods? Top Fifteen Countries by Highest Tariffs (we don't do much trade with them):

    1) Iran

    2) Bhutan

    3) Sri Lanka

    4) Nepal

    5) Pakistan

    6) Zimbabwe

    6) Cameroon (tie)

    8) Chad

    8) Gambia (tie)

    10) Barbados

    11) Sierra Leone

    11) Algeria (tie)

    13) Egypt

    14) Bangladesh

    15) Gabon

    Tariffs are protectionist taxes which protect particular industries and mean higher prices for consumers. A tariff war can end up costing US jobs- particularly for exporters- without necessarily creating more jobs here.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 01-04-2017 at 12:19 PM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Who is this directed at? Let's leave aside for a moment that every supposed good thing about this was already refuted in the post directly above yours, and just ask - how can one be both a globalist and an anarchist?
    well I don't see anything in the post above mine that refutes anything about a private corporation deciding to invest in manufacturing in the US being anything but a good thing for the US. If you think it is a bad thing, well you must be decidedly brighter or stupider than me -- we can just agree to disagree on that.

    As to globalist and anarchist? That's been talked about plenty on the forum in the past. In many ways these "anarchists" are just helpful tools for the globalists.

    Who was it directed at? If you are butthurt over the OP topic of ford deciding to invest here instead of mexico, then it was directed at you and all the other tools that seem to get upset whenever americans are employed in the private marketplace and excited whenever they get laid off, get govt aid, or get govt employment. If you aren't butthurt over it, then clearly it wasn't directed at you.

  27. #24
    From the Liberty Report:

    Trump, as president, would have no power to tax the Chinese. But he can tax Americans, and that's what a tariff is. American consumers would be forced to pay higher prices for Chinese goods. The tariff would also raise revenues for the U.S. government. In other words, money out of your pocket and into the largest government pockets on earth. Trump, instead of shrinking the gargantuan U.S. government would, with tariffs, bloat it further.

    In keeping with government tradition, Trump is essentially promising us "Always Higher Prices". Perhaps he can trademark that along with "Make America Great Again".

    Protectionism is very dangerous. When governments get started in trade wars, they all too often lead to actual hot wars.

    Trump's ideas must be thoroughly rejected.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    As to globalist and anarchist? That's been talked about plenty on the forum in the past. In many ways these "anarchists" are just helpful tools for the globalists.
    I wasn't there. I suspect in your mind "talked about" means "Specs gave everyone a pronouncement and that counts as a discussion".
    I can say that minarchists are helpful tools for the police state, and I'd be 100% correct, but it's not really germane here.

    Who was it directed at? If you are butthurt over the OP topic of ford deciding to invest here instead of mexico, then it was directed at you and all the other tools that seem to get upset whenever americans are employed in the private marketplace and excited whenever they get laid off, get govt aid, or get govt employment. If you aren't butthurt over it, then clearly it wasn't directed at you.
    Is anyone here seriously upset that Ford is building a plant in the US instead of Mexico? I'm not. I'm genuinely interested whether anyone actually is, or whether you're setting up a strawman.
    I don't think you ought to be dragging people into the conversation by name and then misrepresenting their views. If someone here who can be labeled "anarchist" is genuinely upset that they're not building in Mexico, I will take issue with that.

    On the other hand, if you're just throwing mud around and hoping it sticks to people you have completely unrelated grievances with, then we're probably going to have a talk about how obsessed you seem to be with their anuses.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  30. #26
    Ford to move production of Focus from Mexico to China
    BY RAFAEL BERNAL - 06/20/17 12:18 PM EDT 292



    Ford Motor Co. is moving production of its Focus model to China after production at its Michigan plant ends in 2019.

    The move, which Ford estimates will save it $500 million in production costs for the car, comes as the company has become a target of President Trump, who is pressuring manufacturers to keep jobs in the United States.

    Ford initially planned to move production of the Focus to Mexico, but it is now scrapping that plan in favor of production in China, according to a report in Bloomberg.
    Trump thanked Ford on Twitter for its decision to scrap the Mexican plant.


    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...61467766824961

    China's labor costs are lower than Mexico's, but shipping costs for the small cars will rise.

    On the campaign trail and early in his presidency, Trump threatened to slap a 35 percent tariff on products made by American companies in other countries.
    http://thehill.com/latino/338586-for...exico-to-china
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  31. #27
    swing and a miss for Cheeto jesus..

    make China great again



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