Why is the government so big?

[timosman]

Any takers?

[tod evans]

Any takers?

The more it eats the more it grows.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[juleswin]

Any takers?

There are two types of people in the world one set of people just like to have more control of their lives when they become adults while other appreciate the tranquility of having daddy govt take care of them. The question is this, which one are you?

[presence]

Because the masses accept the notion of illegalization of peaceful human action through regulation to be legitimate.
Then when humans cannot act in rational economic fashion, they become dependant upon the state and feign neediness.

[TheTexan]

Because every single piece of it is necessary

[Brian4Liberty]

Because it can not go bankrupt.

[timosman]

The answer has been codified into a law in 1955 - Parkinson's law - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...son-s-Law-1955

[TheCount]

Any takers?

Two political parties who each want more stuff from government, just a different kind of stuff than the other. So they each take turns expanding it.

[jkr]

TO KEEP
BUSY-BODIES
BUSY BUDDY!


say it 5 times FAST...it feels g00d

[Natural Citizen]

Any takers?

Freedom isn't popular.

[heavenlyboy34]

It was designed that way. https://www.amazon.com/Hamiltons-Cur.../dp/0307382850

[Working Poor]

Why? Because it has to something with all that money being stolen from us.

[helmuth_hubener]

It's just one symptom of a collapsing, hedonistic, indulgent, dependent, civilization. Temperaments change. And when they do, social organization frameworks follow.

[helmuth_hubener]

One set of people just like to have control of their lives,...
while other appreciate the tranquility of having daddy govt take care of them.

Type One is a vanishing rarity.
Type Two is in big, happy boom times. All trends bullish for type two.

Our Type One-edness -- and indeed our civilization -- peaked in cowboy times; self-responsibility is today an unacceptable, outrageous, and bigoted lifestyle choice.

You can't fix a civ without, well, fixing the civ. And no one's ever fixed a civ before.

But I still say let's give it the old college try!

[GunnyFreedom]

Any takers?

Power attracts sociopaths who seek only to grow their own power and dominion. This leads to an inevitable aggrandizement of government authority. The only lasting answer to a long term limitation of government power, is to ensure that elected officials have LESS power in their office than they do in their free lives. Then it will not attract sociopaths. In the interim, an entire class of sociopath-attracting powers should be established where the only power they will ever enjoy exercising, is the power to destroy the other sociopath's infrastructures of power, and set them to perpetual war against each other with the right hand perpetually growing the state and the left hand perpetually destroying it.

[Dr.3D]

Why is government so big?

Because politicians (those with government jobs) have friends in need of more government jobs. Of course, once their friend has a government job, they will have friends who will want one too.

[Suzanimal]

Freedom isn't popular.

And "free" stuff is.

[GunnyFreedom]

Why is government so big?

Because politicians (those with government jobs) have friends in need of more government jobs. Of course, once their friend has a government job, they will have friends who will want one too.

Cronyism is like calories to the state. That especially is what makes it grow fat.

[euphemia]

The people in power figured out a way to keep buying more power. With my money.

[GunnyFreedom]

It's just one symptom of a collapsing, hedonistic, indulgent, dependent, civilization. Temperaments change. And when they do, social organization frameworks follow.

The infrastructure of stability could well have been maintained indefinitely if you had an electorate that actually cared, and understood how they were supposed to vote. So absolutely the fundamental cause of the collapse, was the collapse of the American people first.

Without the loss of the People, America would never have fallen. And we are now fallen. It remains to be seen if we stay down, take a knee, or get back up. At this point, large portions of the population have clearly lost their minds. It will only get more surreal from here unless something fundamental and dramatic changes in the people.

The good news is the popular rejection of the propaganda is maybe at it's highest point ever in America, right now. We do not trust. ANYONE but God and our own two hands right now. Every last one of them SOB's in power and on television is a liar. All of them. More people than ever before can see that now. That gives me hope.

Temperaments change, but how do you make both sides cooperate to eradicate powers?

All of this madness exists because the government has way too much power.

It steals power from the left and it steals power from the right.

They say the way to win a debate is to reframe the question. Change the game from "Football" to "Monopoly." Re-draw the field. Reframe the debate.

Make people angry that the government is stealing power from THEM, personally. That evil government is taking our rights. We can try cooperating on some bills to bilaterally reduce power, releasing a little on the left and the right at the same time to try and step it down. Maybe a couple will work, but never get anywhere.

The people are too lazy to demand it and won't do anything about it especially long term, but if you can create a couple year window where people are angry enough,

amend the Constitution to create a 4th branch of the US Government, whose sole purpose is to destroy any illegitimate powers that any other branch may have.

People elect double Congress and double Senate. They will see, one office is the builder congressman the other is the destroyer congressman. One office is the builder Senator, the other office is the destroyer Senator. The people elect the builders and destroyers of their choice in traditional elections.

That would be interesting, and it might even work for a while. Turn the government into a self consuming ouroboros, and the size of government will shrink or grow based on which half people choose to put their filthiest sons of bitches.

[RestorationOfLiberty]

Allowing idiots to vote...

[Krugminator2]

Because of incentives. The cost of services is spread out so that no one votes on waste in any one area. But the people who receive a benefit from government often vote specifically on the issue. Nobody thinks sugar subsidies are a good idea. But no one votes or contributes money to candidates on sugar subsidies except the sugar growers themselves. The biggest example is Medicare. Seniors vote on this issue. Cutting Medicare welfare is a good way for a politician to lose his seat in office.

If you restricted voting to anyone who doesn't get a check from government, the problem of gov't spending would be eliminated overnight.

[Brian4Liberty]

The answer has been codified into a law in 1955 - Parkinson's law - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...son-s-Law-1955

Intersting, and no doubt very accurate. It also applies to private industry.

But with private industry, there is a limiting factor that does not exist with our government:

Because it can not go bankrupt.

[helmuth_hubener]

So absolutely the fundamental cause of the collapse, was the collapse of the American people first.

Without the loss of the People, America would never have fallen. And we are now fallen. It remains to be seen if we stay down, take a knee, or get back up. At this point, large portions of the population have clearly lost their minds. It will only get more surreal from here unless something fundamental and dramatic changes in the people.

Yes! Excellent post! You really "get it," Gunny.

One has to keep drilling down. Asking "why? why? why?" Every time I figure out one answer it just leads to another "why?".

The fundamental problem is the people. THAT MEANS US. THAT MEANS YOU AND ME. What is our problem? We're too soft. Not enough discipline.

The good news is the popular rejection of the propaganda is maybe at it's highest point ever in America, right now. We do not trust. ANYONE but God and our own two hands right now... That gives me hope.

This is true (exaggeration, of course, but true). However: the collapse of trust is not a good thing. It, too, is a symptom of temperamental collapse. People need to trust each other for a society to work. As temperament deteriorates and reverts back to a more primitive state, people's trust circles contract.

Looking on the bright side (as you did), this does generally mean that post-collapse, smaller polities are on the way.

They say the way to win a debate is to re-frame the question.

Here is my framing:

Ancient Decadence: Bad


This: Same




Solution?

[GunnyFreedom]

Yes! Excellent post! You really "get it," Gunny.

One has to keep drilling down. Asking "why? why? why?" Every time I figure out one answer it just leads to another "why?".

The fundamental problem is the people. THAT MEANS US. THAT MEANS YOU AND ME. What is our problem? We're too soft. Not enough discipline.


This is true (exaggeration, of course, but true). However: the collapse of trust is not a good thing. It, too, is a symptom of temperamental collapse. People need to trust each other for a society to work. As temperament deteriorates and reverts back to a more primitive state, people's trust circles contract.

Looking on the bright side (as you did), this does generally mean that post-collapse, smaller polities are on the way.




Here is my framing:

Ancient Decadence: Bad


This: Same




Solution?

Well, God's solution to decadence is usually poverty. Back here on the ground all I've got is that it comes from a lack of genuine purpose.

[TheTexan]

Is the government really even that big though? It only takes between 30%-50% of your wealth.

Which is perfectly reasonable I think, given all the many things we get in return (such as roads)

[Dr.No.]

Is the government really even that big though? It only takes between 30%-50% of your wealth.

Which is perfectly reasonable I think, given all the many things we get in return (such as roads)

Well, about 36%, last I checked. About a fourth of which you get back in social security. I generally don't think that using revenue/spending as a substitute for "size of government" is really a good idea. Social Security is a near-trillion-dollar government program, but all it is is the government collecting taxes and then writing checks. It is an enforced savings program.

Homeland Security/NSA/DEAetc. is a relatively small part of the budget, but represents huge government interference.

Also, don't forget that even in the time of the founders, total government taxation was at about 18-22% of GDP. It is just that most of that was at the state level, while now, most of it is at the federal level.

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, about 36%, last I checked. About a fourth of which you get back in social security. I generally don't think that using revenue/spending as a substitute for "size of government" is really a good idea. Social Security is a near-trillion-dollar government program, but all it is is the government collecting taxes and then writing checks. It is an enforced savings poverty program.

In effect...

[helmuth_hubener]

Well, God's solution to decadence is usually poverty.

Why wait for God to pound it into us?

I know of an effective artificial poverty program. It gives 90% of the benefits of actual poverty. It is called: thrift.

So essentially, what you and I are saying it sounds like is that the solution is this:

and this:

Not a bad start!