Wow you must have trouble reading then.Originally Posted by Superfluous Man
“The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner
do you know what the "Protestants" are protesting?
and if so. this means you are one. right?
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
Most "Protestants" today don't really protest anything. They have now the almost the exact same soteriology as Rome (who Protestants originally protested against).
In the past, at their best moments, some Protestants argued for monergism, or the belief that God alone saves His people. This is what the Bible teaches.
This is the minority view because the heart of man is evil in its religious sentiments, and he will simply never accept that he is not autonomous in some way. Man wants to be God.
How is his mentionings which align with themes in the Book of Enoch have something to do with paganism?
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Justin Martyr grew up in paganism and converted and became one of the most learned and brilliant confessors for Christ in the second century.
Last edited by TER; 12-06-2016 at 09:07 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Can you find anything wrong with what I said?
For one thing I think 1 Enoch is also influenced by paganism.
But in the case of Justin's remarks on angels, it goes beyond what Enoch says. He accepts pagan myths as historical and attempts to Christianize them. That's part of his agenda here, and I think has a lot to do with why he is as comfortable as he is with the supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6.
That's chapter 5 of his 2nd Apology.But if this idea take possession of some one, that if we acknowledge God as our helper, we should not, as we say, be oppressed and persecuted by the wicked; this, too, I will solve. God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law— for these things also He evidently made for man— committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begot children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to god himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of these their offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm
I don't see how him ascribing the gods of the pagans as being nothing more than demons is not according to the teachings of the Church. This sounds like a consistent teaching in the patristic writings that I am familiar with. I
Last edited by TER; 12-06-2016 at 09:23 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
What you said above is basically what I was trying to say to (or warn) a couple guys on another thread....here. It's beyond sad, it's a downright shame.
This may sound crazy to some, but I do believe there are spirits hovering around this site that seek to divide, distract, confuse and turn people away from God. God is not the author of confusion, so please keep that in mind.And God is not a cruel, heartless cosmic puppeteer.
As NC has said a couple times.... I almost think it would be better to have no religion section, if the alternative is what has been going on there for the last few years. But hopefully things will change at some point.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
He does more than that. He also accepts the historicity of the myths about these gods as physical beings active in earthly affairs, such as mating with humans.
I don't think that's necessarily heretical or impossibly to accord with Christian truth. But I do think his interpretation of Genesis 6 should not be considered apart from that belief.
He bases his belief on angels mating with humans from the Book of Enoch. This was not a pagan belief, this was an old Jewish belief held by those who held the Book of Enoch as containing truths.
I agree with you that such teachings are not necessarily heretical or impossible to accord with Christian truth. I just don't understand how him implicating pagan myths into historical events which were misconstrued by some long ago (that they were in fact demons, and not gods) can cause people to question Justin Martyr's orthodoxy (as another poster here implied).
Last edited by TER; 12-06-2016 at 09:44 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I used to think that ALL ancient myths are completely made up stories... with no truth whatsoever. But since then I've realized that although there is only one true religion, many ancient cultures tell some of the same stories (like a worldwide flood, etc) from different perspectives.
That doesn't mean they have it right, of course. And to me the bible should always be our foundation. But I think when one really starts digging in to all this stuff, you come to a mind-blowing realization that many of those ancient cultures - and the bible - told the same story from various perspectives... about angels (or as some called them "gods") coming down from heaven, and mixing with human beings.
I think there are more than enough good, valid reasons (without even using extra-biblical texts) to come to the angelic interpretation of Genesis 6.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
The Ethiopian Orthodox of the Oriental Orthodox Church (Not Eastern Orthodox) include the book of Enoch in their canon. Oddly the other Oriental Churches don't.
I don't know why. I think I'll read up on it tomorrow.
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Was Jude wrong to quote from it?
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There *are* countless gods, but there is only one God Almighty. And the god that chose the Israelites is not the God of Abraham. He is a brutal god of war, and he continues to stoke the flames of war to this present day - same as he has always done.
Do you believe that all our ancient cultures were just making it up?
"Throughout the universe there are millions of names for God (God Almighty) and all of them are holy."
- Don't lie.
- Don't cheat.
- Don't steal.
- Don't kill.
- Don't commit adultery.
- Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
- Honor your father and mother.
- Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
- Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
- Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church does, but the Coptic and the Armenian Orthodox Church (that is, those others which comprise the Oriental Orthodox Church) do not have the Book of Enoch as part of their canon. But that may be because the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has a less stringent criteria for their canon. In other words, if it contains certain important truths handed down, it was included, even if the other parts of the specific text are controversial or considered dubious or fabricated.
The Eastern Orthodox Church (and the other Oriental Orthodox Churches) included in their canon those books which were felt to be most important and pastorally important for the salvation of the members,, and the Book of Enoch for reasons I am not exactly clear on, did not make the cut. Probably because there was no consensus or because some of the topics in the book were controversial or even dangerous to the lay reader.
Last edited by TER; 12-06-2016 at 09:59 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Kind of like reading The Book of Revelation without reading the Gospels?
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What you are describing is similar to the Marcion heresy. According to the teachings of Christ, He is the Father of Abraham Who chose Israel.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I've been curious about the Ethiopians lately. I've been experimenting with some of their culinary recipes in the last few weeks. That is indeed the way to my heart
Last edited by RJB; 12-06-2016 at 10:08 PM.
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Exactly.
Much of the Book of Revelation and the Book of Enoch is a mystery and spending too much time or making the Book of Enoch (or even the Book of Revelation) the centerpiece of one's theology and praxis can be spiritually dangerous.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I don't know. Without such a practice, the prophet Charles Manson would have been an unknown.
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And this may be partly a reason why the Book of Enoch was not included. Perhaps certain Christians began to get so fixated on this book that it affected them in bad ways? Perhaps it caused them to separate from the communion of believers and caused divisions and needless distractions from the greater message of the gospel? I don't know. From what I understand, while it may contain historical truths and be inspired, it did not fulfill the requirements of catholicity, consensus and pastoral importance to the spreading of the Gospel, to be listed among the approved canonical books. The same could be said for others books highly regarded in the early Church which were not included in the canon, such as the Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistles of St Clement. These writings are considered inspired and according to the apostolic faith but were not placed in the biblical canon.
Last edited by TER; 12-06-2016 at 10:23 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Very interesting.... thanks! Was reading the Wikipedia article....
I would also toss everything in the NT written by Paul but hey, that's just me lol
Except for I Corinthians 13 - Paul had his moments
I don't understand what you mean in your 2nd sentence: "According to the teachings of Christ, He is the Father of Abraham Who chose Israel."
- Don't lie.
- Don't cheat.
- Don't steal.
- Don't kill.
- Don't commit adultery.
- Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
- Honor your father and mother.
- Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
- Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
- Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV
Christ revealed that He is the I AM. He is revealing that He is God, who spoke with Abraham and Moses and established covenants with them, which included Israel.Very interesting.... thanks! Was reading the Wikipedia article....
I would also toss everything in the NT written by Paul but hey, that's just me lol
Except for I Corinthians 13 - Paul had his moments
I don't understand what you mean in your 2nd sentence: "According to the teachings of Christ, He is the Father of Abraham Who chose Israel."
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I would say that one has probably been doctored up a bit
Last edited by Jamesiv1; 12-06-2016 at 10:46 PM.
I found no contradictions with scripture. and only some illumination on some things "known"scripture only mentions.
And numerous similarities with John's Vision.
I call it worth reading.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Evil finds a place in every religion of man.
Manson was nothing new.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Oh I agree with you there. There are spirits here who seek to turn people away from the pure grace of Christ. One of those spirits is in you.This may sound crazy to some, but I do believe there are spirits hovering around this site that seek to divide, distract, confuse and turn people away from God. God is not the author of confusion, so please keep that in mind.
God is not the author of confusion in the worship at church. That is what the verse says if you care to read it. But God certainly authored confusion at Babel. God certainly authors confusion when he sends men strong delusions so they believe lies (have you ever read that verse? Probably not).
I'm not here to "divide Christians" because I don't believe Arminianism or Eastern Orthodoxy or modern Calvinism is Christianity.
What I'm doing is giving the Biblical perspective on things in the best way I can, and the evidence that it is the truth is your hateful reaction to it. Natural men hate the truth of monergism. Your hatred is proof that it's true.
Well that's not Biblical. And anyway, Mormons don't believe there is a supreme God. They believe there are countless gods at different levels of progression. Elohim is just one of countless gods. Elohim has a god over him. And so on and so on..
Well no kidding.
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