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Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
So you're talking about keeping the districts (as winner take all) and just allowing candidates to run in more than 1 of them at a time?
That's quite different than a state-wide proportional system.
Neither of us can know that, but, in general, support for Congressmen is highly localized.If he only got 3% of the votes he wouldn't have won the seat he did.
It's not at all unusual for a popular local politician to totally bomb at the state-wide/national level.
Similarly, compare the favorability ratings for individual Congressmen with the favorability rating of Congress as a whole.
Of all the libertarian candidates in modern history, Ron probably had the most ex-district appeal.
An Amash or Massie, for instance, would fair far worse in statewide elections, relative their in-district performance.
Ron won 12% in 2012 among TX GOP primary voters.
Throw democrats and general election GOP voters into the mix (both less Ron-friendly), and it would have been less than half that, I imagine.
This doesn't really matter, though, the overall point is that the effect of your proposed changes are situation-specific.
It's like gerrymandering; those lines help Party X now, but down the road they might help Party Y.
Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 05-15-2018 at 06:34 PM.
I'm still not sure I understand the concept, but more votes is always good for sure
- Kim KardashianIt's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!
My pronouns are he/him/his
No, districts are gone, "seats" means number of votes in the House, you can't cast a fractional vote in the House so the "seats" must be given out whole, after everyone has been given the "seats" they won entirely the remaining "seats" are given to those with the largest remaining fractions.
That would change in this system since voters would be allowed to consider candidates closer to their ideology from outside their area.
But Congress as a whole isn't the issue, the popularity of specific Congressmen outside their district is what is relevant, unfortunately nobody usually takes that kind of poll in our current system
You are leaving independents and 3rd party voters out of the equation.
This is somewhat true if the races are statewide, but if the House was selected in a nationwide vote that wouldn't be the case.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
First, you can have fractional votes: "430.3 For, 4.7 Against, the Ayes have it."
Fractional voting isn't the issue, the issue would be having a gigantic number of House members.
That aside, I'm confused by the underlined.
Say there are five candidates with popular vote totals as follows:
A: 50.54%
B: 18.3%
C: 15.9%
D: 14.5%
E: 0.76%
How many seats does each candidate get?
That doesn't mean it would change to the advantage of libertarian candidates.That would change in this system since voters would be allowed to consider candidates closer to their ideology from outside their area.
The socialist who's terribly popular in his own district, but has no name recognition elsewhere, might make similar gains.
The huge gap between the Congress-wide and individual Congressmen polls shows that people like their own far more than they like the others.But Congress as a whole isn't the issue, the popularity of specific Congressmen outside their district is what is relevant, unfortunately nobody usually takes that kind of poll in our current system
If you'd like to present evidence for a different number, feel free. I was just putting up a number arguendo, and, as I said, it's beside the point.You are leaving independents and 3rd party voters out of the equation.
How so?This is somewhat true if the races are statewide, but if the House was selected in a nationwide vote that wouldn't be the case.
If we assume 100 seats are up for grabs then in the first round the results would be:
A: 50
B: 18
C: 15
D: 14
E: 0
That would leave 3 seats which would be given out as follows:
C: 1
E: 1
A: 1
For a total of:
A: 51
B: 18
C: 16
D: 14
E: 1
It would benefit any group that is underrepresented under the current system.
No it doesn't, those House members who gain national notoriety can be quite popular like Dr. Ron, the institution gets poor marks because it is controlled by the "moderates" of the two party establishment, the local Congressman usually gets high marks because everybody wants to imagine that their Rep is an exception and they were right to vote for him.
Because there would be no subdivisions "gerrymandering" the vote, if the LP candidate got about 2% of the vote they would get about 2% of the house seats, with about 400 house seats that would be about 8.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Gotcha
That isn't necessarily true, but even if it were, it wouldn't necessarily help libertarians.It would benefit any group that is underrepresented under the current system.
I'm not going to argue with you about whether reps are more popular in their own districts than elsewhere. This is obvious.No it doesn't, those House members who gain national notoriety can be quite popular like Dr. Ron, the institution gets poor marks because it is controlled by the "moderates" of the two party establishment, the local Congressman usually gets high marks because everybody wants to imagine that their Rep is an exception and they were right to vote for him.
Again, it works both ways.Because there would be no subdivisions "gerrymandering" the vote, if the LP candidate got about 2% of the vote they would get about 2% of the house seats, with about 400 house seats that would be about 8.
It's quite possible for a minority party/candidate to do better with the gerrymandered subdivisions than without them.
I gave you mathematical examples of this several posts up.
Libertarians are underrepresented in the current system.
The question isn't whether they are it is whether they would be.
Libertarians are currently underrepresented, if my system was implemented they would be better represented.
Gerrymandering is controlled by the major parties under the current system, it is constantly used against liberty candidates. (Ask Gunny)
If the races were statewide the "gerrymandering" would be random and permanent, since libertarians tend to be spread out rather than concentrated they wouldn't be likely to benefit much but they would be better off than they are with the major parties in control of gerrymandering, if the races were nationwide they would get very close to their just representation.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Color me skeptical.
By the way, I'm sure you know that this (nation-wide proportional voting) is more or less how it works in most of the rest of the world.
In Europe, for instance, there is an amusing number of minority parties with one or two seats in parliament.
Does that system seem to be yielding significantly different results?
People complain (understandably) about the winner-take-all nature of our system, but the coalition building process that the rest of the world employs ends up with the same thing, more or less (you get to be part of the government, if only you abandon all principle and compromise with your enemies, in some milquetoast middle).
Compared to us they do get better representation of their worse political cultures and they are able have political revolutions more often.
But they still have to get one person for every seat and their party list system makes party bosses more important instead of less, so my system would be better than theirs.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Not usually, there isn't much of a libertarian movement in Europe, but the ability to have "a little revolution now and then" is a healthy thing, we would be in better shape if the "major" parties didn't have as secure a monopoly even if we wouldn't have a libertarian paradise.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
In the context of this conversation, I appreciate what you mean, but that's a terrible saying.
...sorry Jefferson, you oughtn't to have read Rousseau.
I'd be hard pressed to find a revolution that improved things (the American, at a wash, may be the best); most have been orgies of destruction.
bump
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Bump
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
In New Zealand:
The Coastguard is a Charity
Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
The DMV is a private non-profit
Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
A tax return has 4 fields
Business licenses aren't a thing
Prostitution is legal
We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Do yourself a favour. Its by the guy who wrote fight club. Its a satire of the alt-right in America. They get everything they want. All the blacks move to BlackTopia in the South, California becomes Gaysia, home of all the gays, and the straight whites get the North, Caucasia. Votes are based on how many people you killed on the list on Adjustment Day. You will $#@!in love it.
In New Zealand:
The Coastguard is a Charity
Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
The DMV is a private non-profit
Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
A tax return has 4 fields
Business licenses aren't a thing
Prostitution is legal
We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Why-not-give-RPF-members-multiple-sock-puppets-?
On Trump:
How conservative Republicans can continue to support this arrogant imposter—the man who brags about inflicting the world with the Covid mark of the beast; the man who said, “Take the guns first, go through due process second”; and the man who deliberately played and then set up Stewart Rhodes (of course, Stewart was all too eager to be Trump’s patsy) for an 18-year prison sentence—is truly beyond my comprehension.” Chuck Baldwin
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
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