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Thread: President Obama Says He Can't Pardon Snowden

  1. #1

    President Obama Says He Can't Pardon Snowden

    https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/11...pardon-snowden

    Joe Mullin, writing for Ars Technica:

    A campaign to pardon NSA leaker Edward Snowden, launched in combination with a fawning Oliver Stone film about him, hasn't made any headway. The request spurred the entire membership of the House Select Committee on Intelligence, 13 Republicans and nine Democrats, to send a letter to President Barack Obama urging against a pardon. "He is a criminal," they stated flatly. Obama weighed in on the matter on Friday. During his European tour, he was interviewed by Der Spiegel -- the largest newspaper in Germany, a country where Snowden is particularly popular. After discussing a wide range of issues, he was asked: Are you going to pardon Edward Snowden? Obama replied: "I can't pardon somebody who hasn't gone before a court and presented themselves, so that's not something that I would comment on at this point." He continued: I think that Mr. Snowden raised some legitimate concerns. How he did it was something that did not follow the procedures and practices of our intelligence community. If everybody took the approach that I make my own decisions about these issues, then it would be very hard to have an organized government or any kind of national security system. At the point at which Mr. Snowden wants to present himself before the legal authorities and make his arguments or have his lawyers make his arguments, then I think those issues come into play. Until that time, what I've tried to suggest -- both to the American people, but also to the world -- is that we do have to balance this issue of privacy and security.
    Mmmhmm...

    An "Anti-Establishment" Trump Would Pardon Edward Snowden
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Edward-Snowden

    Doesnt sound like cant, sounds like WONT.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  3. #2
    Can you pardon somebody for a crime they are not found guilty of? A "pre-emptive" pardon?

    Rules: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardo...d-instructions

    1. Submit the petition to the Office of the Pardon Attorney

    All petitions, except petitions relating to military offenses (see paragraph 6 below), should be forwarded to the Office of the Pardon Attorney, Department of Justice. The completed pardon petition must be entirely legible; therefore, please type or print in ink. The form must be completed fully and accurately and notarized in order to be considered. You may attach to the petition additional pages and documents that amplify or clarify your answer to any question.

    2. Federal convictions only

    Under the Constitution, only federal criminal convictions, such as those adjudicated in the United States District Courts, may be pardoned by the President. In addition, the President's pardon power extends to convictions adjudicated in the Superior Court of the District of Columbia and military court-martial proceedings. However, the President cannot pardon a state criminal offense. Accordingly, if you are seeking clemency for a state criminal conviction, you should not complete and submit this petition. Instead, you should contact the Governor or other appropriate authorities of the state where you reside or where the conviction occurred (such as the state board of pardons and paroles) to determine whether any relief is available to you under state law. If you have a federal conviction, information about the conviction may be obtained from the clerk of the federal court where you were convicted.

    3. Five-year waiting period required

    Under the Department's rules governing petitions for executive clemency, 28 C.F.R. §§ 1.1 et seq., an applicant must satisfy a minimum waiting period of five years before he becomes eligible to apply for a presidential pardon of his federal conviction. The waiting period, which is designed to afford the petitioner a reasonable period of time in which to demonstrate an ability to lead a responsible, productive and law-abiding life, begins on the date of the petitioner's release from confinement. Alternatively, if the conviction resulted in a sentence that did not include any form of confinement, including community or home confinement, the waiting period begins on the date of sentencing. In addition, the petitioner should have fully satisfied the penalty imposed, including all probation, parole, or supervised release before applying for clemency. Moreover, the waiting period begins upon release from confinement for your most recent conviction, whether or not this is the offense for which pardon is sought. You may make a written request for a waiver of this requirement. However, waiver of any portion of the waiting period is rarely granted and then only in the most exceptional circumstances. In order to request a waiver, you must complete the pardon application form and submit it with a cover letter explaining why you believe the waiting period should be waived in your case.
    A president cannot pardon for state convictions either.

    What the Constitution says:

    The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
    If one is not convicted of an offense against the United States, he cannot pardon them. At this point, Snowden is only accused.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-21-2016 at 10:51 PM.

  4. #3
    He most certainly can, if he wanted to.

    Presidential pardons can be granted anytime after an offense has been committed including before, during, or after a conviction for the offense. If granted before a conviction is given, it prevents any penalties from attaching to the person.
    http://www.legalflip.com/Article.aspx?id=61&pageid=321

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Can you pardon somebody for a crime they are not found guilty of? A "pre-emptive" pardon?

    Rules: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardo...d-instructions

    A president cannot pardon for state convictions either.

    What the Constitution says:

    If one is not convicted of an offense against the United States, he cannot pardon them. At this point, Snowden is only accused.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 11-21-2016 at 11:34 PM.

  5. #4
    Thank you for the additional information.

  6. #5
    No surprise. Obama is simply a tool for the banksters.

  7. #6
    So I'm guessing a pardon for Leonard Peltier is out of the question.
    Last edited by Carlybee; 11-21-2016 at 11:49 PM.

  8. #7
    Well I guess a pardon for Hillary is out of the question as well, good to know.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Thank you for the additional information.
    More than welcome.



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  11. #9
    If Trump can get 8 that means Pence is up for 8 . I just need to wait for 8 and maybe Pence will pardon me for whatever I come up with , LOL. They do not plan on pardoning Snowden , ever .
    Do something Danke

  12. #10
    Was it not so long ago that Trump also said something like Snowden = Traitor too? Horse $#@!. Snowden is a Hero. Trump, more like a Flip Flop.

    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  13. #11
    This does not surprise me whatsoever. "Obama" could not pardon himself out of a wet paper bag.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  14. #12
    Ford pardoned Nixon for crimes he might have committed.

    /tread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Can you pardon somebody for a crime they are not found guilty of? A "pre-emptive" pardon?

    Rules: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardo...d-instructions



    A president cannot pardon for state convictions either.

    What the Constitution says:



    If one is not convicted of an offense against the United States, he cannot pardon them. At this point, Snowden is only accused.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ford pardoned Nixon for crimes he might have committed.
    Does not make such an action any more right though. There is an apparent paradox with this as well. Being a president can commit great atrocities step down with an understanding that their VP will issue a full pardon the same day the VP is sworn in as acting president--the same applies as well their executive underlings.

    Moreover, the logic of this all violates the 14th Amendment. Laws are laws among all men.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  16. #14

    Someone Else "Can't" Pardon Snowden, Either...

    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    https://yro.slashdot.org/story/16/11...pardon-snowden



    Mmmhmm...

    An "Anti-Establishment" Trump Would Pardon Edward Snowden
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Edward-Snowden

    Doesnt sound like cant, sounds like WONT.
    A President Trump won't pardon Snowden, either. According to him, Edward Snowden is a traitor:

    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Does not make such an action any more right though. There is an apparent paradox with this as well. Being a president can commit great atrocities step down with an understanding that their VP will issue a full pardon the same day the VP is sworn in as acting president--the same applies as well their executive underlings.

    Moreover, the logic of this all violates the 14th Amendment. Laws are laws among all men.
    That would be an issue for the courts to sort out after the fact. If Obama wanted to pardon Snowden he most certainly could pardon Snowden. Could that pardon be successfully challenged after the fact? Maybe. Of course Obama stating that he can't pardon Snowden means that he won't preemptively pardon Clinton. But then again Trump isn't going to prosecute her either.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #16
    Very true. Congress can as well seek impeachment for such acts too. ...But they would not dare of course.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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  20. #17
    After discussing a wide range of issues, he was asked: Are you going to pardon Edward Snowden? Obama replied: "I can't pardon somebody who hasn't gone before a court and presented themselves, so that's not something that I would comment on at this point."
    That same logic should prevent him from pardoning Hillary Clinton then.
    There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
    (1 John 4:18)

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Can you pardon somebody for a crime they are not found guilty of? A "pre-emptive" pardon?

    Rules: https://www.justice.gov/pardon/pardo...d-instructions



    A president cannot pardon for state convictions either.

    What the Constitution says:



    If one is not convicted of an offense against the United States, he cannot pardon them. At this point, Snowden is only accused.
    Yeah, Nixons pardon was preemptive. But you already knew that.

  22. #19
    Edward Snowden is not going to be pardoned by Obama or Trump. Period. Not because they can't, but because they don't want to.

    What I could see is the idea of one of these guys, or a future President, dangling a pardon out there in order to get Snowden to return or drop his guard. But if he did that, he would be executed as a traitor - either by the "law" or extra-judicially. Snowden did us a great and heroic service, but the price he has to pay is eternal exile. Or his life.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  23. #20
    The executive branch, the entire NSA apparatus included, has, for as long as I have been alive, been the traitor.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  24. #21
    Instead of the idiotic Change.org petition of 4 million + signatures asking for Frau Clinton to be president, they should be asking to get Snowden pardoned. But I doubt these people who post on facebook every minute care about Snowden or privacy.

  25. #22

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    Look what I found!
    People seem to keep misreading that tweet. What he is saying there is, "If I were President, Russia would have turned over that traitor for execution as fast as they could and they'd be apologizing to us for ever giving him sanctuary."

    I suppose we'll see if Russia picks him up and turns him over...
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    People seem to keep misreading that tweet. What he is saying there is, "If I were President, Russia would have turned over that traitor for execution as fast as they could and they'd be apologizing to us for ever giving him sanctuary."

    I suppose we'll see if Russia picks him up and turns him over...
    Shucks, well if that's the correct reading I wish he would have at least kept his stance consistent on that. Apology hell of a lot better than execution, G-ddamn!



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    Shucks, well if that's the correct reading I wish he would have at least kept his stance consistent on that. Apology hell of a lot better than execution, G-ddamn!
    Yeah, I know Trump isn't the greatest grammarian, but I still can't read it as if the "apology" was going to be given to Snowden. Lol.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Edward Snowden is not going to be pardoned by Obama or Trump. Period. Not because they can't, but because they don't want to.

    What I could see is the idea of one of these guys, or a future President, dangling a pardon out there in order to get Snowden to return or drop his guard. But if he did that, he would be executed as a traitor - either by the "law" or extra-judicially. Snowden did us a great and heroic service, but the price he has to pay is eternal exile. Or his life.
    If we elect Snowden President then he can pardon himself. I'll pull the lever for him in a heartbeat. Ron as VP.

  31. #27
    When is Obama going to shut down Guantanamo?

  32. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    /thread
    Actually, Obama has already pre-emptively pardoned three Iranians caught violating Iranian Sanctions, so not only is he lying about saying he can't pardon without conviction, he has already done it.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ir...-idUSKCN0UU0UL

  33. #29

    Obama’s Last Big Con

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/11/...-last-big-con/

    by DAVE LINDORFF NOVEMBER 21, 2016


    Much was made when Barack Obama made his historic run for the White House of the fact that in the course of his relatively young life he had been a “community organizer” and that in addition to having a law degree, he had actually taught Constitutional law. Just nine days after his inauguration as the nation’s first black president, he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, which he was awarded that October,. Norwegian Nobel Committee Chairman Thorbjorn Jagland, while insisting that the prize had not been awarded “for what may happen in the future,” did admit the award left the committee fearing”being labeled naïve for accepting a young politician’s promises at face value.”

    As it turns out, all of these promising signs of progressive integrity and principle, based upon the thinnest of evidence and experience, have turned out to have been false.

    Obama proved to be a disaster as an organizer president, except when it came to organizing support for his initial election win. He failed, even with majority control of both houses of Congress, to even try to rally his supporters to fight for real progressive change during the critical months after he had taken office, quickly abandoning workers whom he promised to provide with a more union-friendly National Labor Relations Act, for example. Premature Peace Prize in hand, he failed to end the nation’s wars, and instead began new ones, leaving this country mired in several conflicts — including Iraq and Afghanistan — even eight years later as he was leaving office, and adding a new disastrous precedent of presidential murder-by-drone.

    Now, to add to the disappointing list of false hopes and promises, it turns out that Obama is no constitutional scholar either…or a man with even a scintilla of spine or principle.

    The evidence: On a final trip to Europe, Obama, in an interview with the German news weekly Der Spiegel, asked whether he would consider pardoning NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, replied, “I can’t pardon somebody who hasn’t gone before a court and presented themselves, so that’s not something that I would comment on at this point.”

    This facile answer is simply wrong. The founders deliberately gave presidents unlimited pardon powers, exempting only the right to pardon him or herself in the case of an impeachment — a logical exclusion. Otherwise there are no constraints on and no power to undo a presidential pardon. Nor does a pardon have to follow a person’s being convicted or even indicted.

    President Gerald Ford’s pardon of his resigned predecessor Richard Nixon is a case in point. As Obama, the “Constitutional law” expert, surely knows, Nixon, though impeached in the House, was never tried by the Senate. He resigned rather than face that trial, which his advisors convinced him he would lose. President Bill Clinton also issued a pre-prosecution pardon to financier Marc Rich, who had fled the country rather than face federal racketeering charges.

    In other words, President Obama could easily pardon Edward Snowden if he wanted to. Instead, he fell back on a convenient fiction, perhaps hoping that the German reporter and his editors would be ignorant enough about the US Constitution and about US history that his lie would slip by them.

    After making the understated concession that “Mr. Snowden raised some legitimate concerns” about the National Security Agency’s secret mass electronic surveillance program,” Obama told the magazine he had done “something that did not follow the procedures and practices of our intelligence community.”

    Knowing full well that his Justice Department has long been seeking to haul Snowden home to the US from his place of asylum in Russia to face prosecution under this country’s Espionage Act (or even to simply kill him, by some accounts), the president said, “At the point at which Mr. Snowden wants to present himself before the legal authorities and make his arguments or have his lawyers make his arguments, then I think those issues come into play.”

    In other words, without offering any promise of a pardon even afterwards, he is saying Snowden would have to first offer himself up to the tender mercies of the American justice system — the same one that has time after time refused to allow indicted whistleblowers to make a defense based upon the public good — and then hope for a pardon after what would be an almost certain conviction given the legal roadblocks to any honest defense that are typically placed upon defendants in such cases by federal judges.

    So much for this “Constitutional lawyer” president.

    What all these failures by Obama to live up to his early billing, whether as an organizer, a Peace Laureate, or a constitutional scholar, have in common is that this president knows what’s right and what he should be doing. He just doesn’t do it. He actually did learn how to organize people, as he demonstrated in pulling together a huge coalition to win election in 2008. He knows what peace is and how to achieve it, but chose the path of war, over and over again, during his two terms of office. And in the interests of furthering secrecy in government, despite his early promise of a more open government made during his first campaign for the White House, he long ago decided instead to make his presidency the most aggressive prosecutor of whistleblowers in the history of that office. Snowden would simply become the big prize, should he decide to come home from Russia and place his trust in the American legal system.

    It’s a sorry picture of bait-and-switch by a man who has played this country like a fiddle right to the end.

    Donald Trump has nothing on his predecessor when it comes to saying one thing and doing another.

  34. #30
    Obama is such a maverick. He could, but he won't.
    Ah, memories. Remember when he signed the NDAA, even though he had "reservations"? A real man of the people, that one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNvtKKM902w
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

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