The Decline And Fall of the Liberty Movement, Illustrated

[r3volution 3.0]

[fisharmor]

I still find it interesting that as it was happening there were plenty of us pissed off at the time because Ron had not suspended his campaign, yet we are expected to remember things differently from how they were.
I read a book once about altering history being vital to keeping the status quo.

[fisharmor]

I also find it interesting that we're still expected to accept the endorsement because Rand had to play the game to get anywhere, yet the president elect is a man who didn't even recognize that there was a game.

So yeah, it makes sense that people who can't comprehend that are still carping on how Rand is our savior.

[nikcers]

I also find it interesting that we're still expected to accept the endorsement because Rand had to play the game to get anywhere, yet the president elect is a man who didn't even recognize that there was a game.

So yeah, it makes sense that people who can't comprehend that are still carping on how Rand is our savior.

Trump is either playing the game, or a neocon puppet. How else do you explain Bolten or Giuliani ?

[UWDude]

Trump is either playing the game, or a neocon puppet. How else do you explain Bolten or Giuliani ?

FUD

[Mordan]

Trump is either playing the game, or a neocon puppet. How else do you explain Bolten or Giuliani ?

5D chessing you. CTR.

[Mordan]

OP. The liberty movement was destroyed by Purists who abused everyone that didn't fit the mold. I saw that in 2008.

I find myself sometimes a sinner in that regard. My apologies.

[Nye]

Trump is either playing the game, or a neocon puppet. How else do you explain Bolten or Giuliani ?

You can't. How can you justify the names for Sec of State that have been floating around?

[Todd]

I also find it interesting that we're still expected to accept the endorsement because Rand had to play the game to get anywhere, yet the president elect is a man who didn't even recognize that there was a game.

So yeah, it makes sense that people who can't comprehend that are still carping on how Rand is our savior.

Trumps personality and status and wallet had a whole lot to do with how much he could ignore the game. You can't just pick a doctor from Kentucky with average charisma for that job and expect same results. Totally different set of circumstances. I get what you are saying.

[scm]

OP. The liberty movement was destroyed by Purists who abused everyone that didn't fit the mold. I saw that in 2008.

I find myself sometimes a sinner in that regard. My apologies.

So you went completely the wrong way in picking you next choice.



Sorry but the movement died in 2012, need a recap.

[ChristianAnarchist]

+rep

[Cleaner44]

Maybe just maybe Trump doesn't have anything to do with any liberty movement.

If there is anyone here that thinks Trump is libertarian, please speak up so we can discuss that idea.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Maybe just maybe Trump doesn't have anything to do with any liberty movement.

If there is anyone here that thinks Trump is libertarian, please speak up so we can discuss that idea.

Not only is he not libertarian he's now appointing all the usual criminals to all his cabinet positions...

[Cleaner44]

Not only is he not libertarian he's now appointing all the usual criminals to all his cabinet positions...

I would imagine that many people that will be working in his administration will be known people and none of them will be from the Lew Rockwell circle. I would also imagine that almost anyone with a resume that fits these positions is going to be compromised to some degree. Probably the best we can hope for a Republican administration that adheres to at least a portion of their platform.

He is also the first President that I know of that has said anything critical of the Federal Reserve and I welcome that. I wonder if he has ever read End The Fed.

Edit:
This seems encouraging on the surface:
Pence removing lobbyists from Trump transition team
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...tion-team.html

[fisharmor]

Not only is he not libertarian he's now appointing all the usual criminals to all his cabinet positions...

I don't place a whole lot of importance on his cabinet picks. AFAIK he never said a thing about reducing the size, role, or budget of any federal departments. As a man who has run large organizations before, he's probably just looking for effective administrators who will work within whatever guidelines he sets, and will probably just fire anyone who doesn't follow his guidelines.
Even though they're cabinet positions, they're still jobs, and if they don't do them the way he wants, he's going to get rid of them.

That is why some people, like me, place more importance on consistency, coherence, and dogma in the head of state, particularly in election season. The danger isn't in John Bolton getting a job. The danger is that we frankly have no idea what Trump is going to mandate John Bolton to do.

[fisharmor]

He is also the first President that I know of that has said anything critical of the Federal Reserve and I welcome that. I wonder if he has ever read End The Fed.

The man owns a real estate empire. Considering how Fed action and inaction directly correlates to mortgage rates, I don't consider it a possibility that he doesn't know exactly what the Fed does and fully condones at least part of it.

[Sola_Fide]

The man owns a real estate empire. Considering how Fed action and inaction directly correlates to mortgage rates, I don't consider it a possibility that he doesn't know exactly what the Fed does and fully condones at least part of it.

Sure. Trump obviously loves manipulating interest. He affirms it with trade policy and domestic policy.

[TheCount]

He is also the first President that I know of that has said anything critical of the Federal Reserve and I welcome that.

Another convenient case of forgetting everything Trump has ever said in favor of one time where he said one critical thing at a crucial point of the election in order to shore up support for his candidacy.

[GunnyFreedom]

OP. The liberty movement was destroyed by Purists who abused everyone that didn't fit the mold. I saw that in 2008.

I find myself sometimes a sinner in that regard. My apologies.

A libertarian choosing liberty over tyranny is not being a "purist," they are simply being a "libertarian." Anyone who actually wants Trump is not a libertarian, they are an authoritarian. You don't get to claim that a Catholic is a "purist" because they won't drink the blood from a demonic sacrifice.

[Athan]

A libertarian choosing liberty over tyranny is not being a "purist," they are simply being a "libertarian." Anyone who actually wants Trump is not a libertarian, they are an authoritarian. You don't get to claim that a Catholic is a "purist" because they won't drink the blood from a demonic sacrifice.

Yeah, but both sides are arguing about a dude who hasn't even been inaugurated, and by ALL accounts was better than Hillary (unless you believed civil war and WW3 was a better alternative which I can understand). It's utter madness over semantics and hypotheticals. This forum's members are crippling each other over unformulated thoughts and theories. The divide is gaining enough momentum to permanently cripple the liberty movement in the future.

I thought it was just gary johnson and bill weld being f*cking idiots sabotaging the libertarian party. This sh*t however is more serious and entrenched than even I imagined. Ron Paul supporters themselves are in disarray. I mean Gunny, you used to be one of the more awesome posters I remember years ago. Now you are simply part of the division over he said she said. At a time when the media and neocons are in route, the intelligence community in revolt against entrenched political orders, there is only unfocused squabbling over each other's point of view on current events.

Utter f*cking maddness. What the hell happened? Is what is going on in Ron Paul Forums mirrored everywhere else in the liberty movement?

[ChristianAnarchist]

Yeah, but both sides are arguing about a dude who hasn't even been inaugurated, and by ALL accounts was better than Hillary (unless you believed civil war and WW3 was a better alternative which I can understand). It's utter madness over semantics and hypotheticals. This forum's members are crippling each other over unformulated thoughts and theories. The divide is gaining enough momentum to permanently cripple the liberty movement in the future.

I thought it was just gary johnson and bill weld being a f*cking idiots sabotaging the libertarian party. This sh*t however is more serious and entrenched than even I imagined. Ron Paul supporters themselves are in disarray. I mean Gunny, you used to be one of the more awesome posters I remember years ago. Now you are simply part of the division over he said she said. At a time when the media and neocons are in route, the intelligence community in revolt against entrenched political orders, there is only unfocused squabbling over each other's point of view on current events.

Utter f*cking maddness. What the hell happened? Is what is going on in Ron Paul Forums mirrored everywhere else in the liberty movement?

Geez! And I just +rep him for that post! I guess we need to wait and see. There's no guarantee that Trump won't start WWIII just as fast as Billary. Trade wars are a great way to start a shooting war. That said I think the only "fair" trade is to use tariffs equal to the other country. China has a 45% (or so) import tax on foreign vehicles, we need to match that. If the other country objects, we can simply point to their tax as a justification. In the end, I think you would see the Chinese reducing their tax immensely...

[Dangergirl]

A libertarian choosing liberty over tyranny is not being a "purist," they are simply being a "libertarian." Anyone who actually wants Trump is not a libertarian, they are an authoritarian. You don't get to claim that a Catholic is a "purist" because they won't drink the blood from a demonic sacrifice.

This is where you get it wrong Gunny. No one said they wanted Trump over any Liberty candidate. He's the guy we have and he seems approachable with liberty ideas. We want to take the opportunity to advance our Constitutional values. You're being a "purist" because you're shutting out any possibility of conversion. And this attitude goes towards piers as well. There's a slew of new voters who are excited about their diluted idea of Liberty but instead of welcoming them and encouraging them to learn you want to mash their heads into the dirt with all their "mistakes". I don't see how, in your position, you're so undiplomatic :d

[euphemia]

So yeah, it makes sense that people who can't comprehend that are still carping on how Rand is our savior.

The thing that bothers me is all the speculation and why everything is not done yesterday. Nothing will happen until January 20 when the Inauguration takes place.

What encourages me is that Rand is out there talking and giving a pretty good thumbnail sketch of his priorities for the next session. He sounds very reasoned and logical. I hope he will stay on message and move forward to get stuff done. He has a bit of an inside track because he was on the debate stage with Trump, and I feel like there was some backstage chat. Trump wants to get to know people, and he needs to get to know them. The fact that he already knows Rand and they seem to be cordial is a really good thing. Presidents can only do so much. The real power rests with Congress.

[ChristianAnarchist]

This is where you get it wrong Gunny. No one said they wanted Trump over any Liberty candidate. He's the guy we have and he seems approachable with liberty ideas. We want to take the opportunity to advance our Constitutional values. You're being a "purist" because you're shutting out any possibility of conversion. And this attitude goes towards piers as well. There's a slew of new voters who are excited about their diluted idea of Liberty but instead of welcoming them and encouraging them to learn you want to mash their heads into the dirt with all their "mistakes". I don't see how, in your position, you're so undiplomatic :d

Wrong danger. We "liberty types" will work with anyone to promote liberty, even Billary. The problem is we don't see any willingness from any of them to work toward liberty. Trump has certainly made a few very minor concessions to "liberty" but now that he's elected he seems to be changing his tune. Perhaps I'm wrong (GASP!) and he will turn out to promote liberty in some small way. If so, that's great. It's just that we are not going to be fooled over and over again. We will be watching...

[GunnyFreedom]

Yeah, but both sides are arguing about a dude who hasn't even been inaugurated, and by ALL accounts was better than Hillary (unless you believed civil war and WW3 was a better alternative which I can understand). It's utter madness over semantics and hypotheticals. This forum's members are crippling each other over unformulated thoughts and theories. The divide is gaining enough momentum to permanently cripple the liberty movement in the future.

Not only have I been giving DJT the benefit of the doubt, I was doing so HERE until the Trump supporters started promoting Trump as better than the Pauls. If people are going to sully the Good Doctor's name, I'm going to oppose that.

I thought it was just gary johnson and bill weld being f*cking idiots sabotaging the libertarian party. This sh*t however is more serious and entrenched than even I imagined. Ron Paul supporters themselves are in disarray. I mean Gunny, you used to be one of the more awesome posters I remember years ago. Now you are simply part of the division over he said she said.

You probably missed the months I recently spent as a commie Hillary slave paid by the DNC to send American elections to a clean Democrat sweep. Since I am (according to the people you are defending) little more than a paid sockpuppet of Debbie Wassermann Shultz, and the forum ownership saw nothing wrong with all of this, then why shoulf I give a fk who I insult anymore?

At a time when the media and neocons are in route, the intelligence community in revolt against entrenched political orders, there is only unfocused squabbling over each other's point of view on current events.

Yeah, you have clearly missed the last like 14 months of anyone who didn't like Trump getting thoroughly demonized unchecked around here. The only reason I come here anymore is to try to keep the stain of authoritarian tyrants off of Ron Paul's good name.

Utter f*cking maddness. What the hell happened? Is what is going on in Ron Paul Forums mirrored everywhere else in the liberty movement?

Ask Bryan why he let this $#@!-show go on all year. I spend my efforts in reason elsewhere from this place since these forums do not want it anymore.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Don't give up gunny. We need all the RP holdouts we can get here...

[Athan]

Not only have I been giving DJT the benefit of the doubt, I was doing so HERE until the Trump supporters started promoting Trump as better than the Pauls. If people are going to sully the Good Doctor's name, I'm going to oppose that.



You probably missed the months I recently spent as a commie Hillary slave paid by the DNC to send American elections to a clean Democrat sweep. Since I am (according to the people you are defending) little more than a paid sockpuppet of Debbie Wassermann Shultz, and the forum ownership saw nothing wrong with all of this, then why shoulf I give a fk who I insult anymore?



Yeah, you have clearly missed the last like 14 months of anyone who didn't like Trump getting thoroughly demonized unchecked around here. The only reason I come here anymore is to try to keep the stain of authoritarian tyrants off of Ron Paul's good name.



Ask Bryan why he let this $#@!-show go on all year. I spend my efforts in reason elsewhere from this place since these forums do not want it anymore.

1. It's a useless and pointless opinion NO ONE IN RON PAUL FORUMS ARE GOING TO TAKE SERIOUSLY. Let it go nigga. It's just election fever.

2. I did miss a few months. However, point me in the direction where I am defending their statement that you are a paid sockpuppet. Go ahead. I'll wait.

3. You should because guess what, you have an earned reputation and air of respect you are sh*tting on and they can't touch. But I am not going to be telling you what to do. You want to sleep with pigs and slop, go ahead.

4. Yeah, guess why I was gone. Sh*t was going down and RPF is not as quick of a news aggregate as where I go, let alone the Daily Paul in it's hay day which is now gone. I understand your sentiment, but the divisiveness isn't what I recommend you focus on. Old enemies we the liberty movement had are being routed and boned. Is that really less important than internal melodrama? Seriously?

5. You ask Brian bro, I am not the one having an issue. I took a leave because of all the sh*t going down. Just relax. I'm not singling you out either. I just remember you being one of the more respected posters and even you are squabbling with some random posters.

[Dangergirl]

Wrong danger. We "liberty types" will work with anyone to promote liberty, even Billary. The problem is we don't see any willingness from any of them to work toward liberty. Trump has certainly made a few very minor concessions to "liberty" but now that he's elected he seems to be changing his tune. Perhaps I'm wrong (GASP!) and he will turn out to promote liberty in some small way. If so, that's great. It's just that we are not going to be fooled over and over again. We will be watching...

I am a "liberty type" and I spend time with people I know, no matter what their ideology, to try to promote Liberty and the Constitution. I'm not sure why you haven't found anyone to coach yourself but I think they're out there. We're not in the position to nitpick yet.

We have no idea what Trump will be but he helped us dodge a huge bullet. I hope more of us take this chance to promote our movement and cause because this can turn around against us real quick. 4-8 years is not a lot of time.

I notice Gunny replied but I'll let him stew in his ego for a bit before I reply if I even do

[GunnyFreedom]

This is where you get it wrong Gunny. No one said they wanted Trump over any Liberty candidate.

You either were not around for the primaries before Rand Paul dropped out, or you have forgotten about that time. Likewise, you do not appear to have been paying attention to these forums over the last 10 months AT ALL considering the volume of Trumplove where people thought Tump was savior and messiah. If your memory or experienced is that compromised, then I would tend to not lend much weight to your judgement.

He's the guy we have

True enough.

and he seems approachable with liberty ideas.

You are dreaming now.

We want to take the opportunity to advance our Constitutional values. You're being a "purist" because you're shutting out any possibility of conversion.

Now I know you are lost in fiction-land. Not only will I work with anybody, I HAVE A PUBLIC RECORD HISTORY OF WORKING WITH ANYBODY. The fact that I know Trump will not be adopting a Constitutionalist Platform has nothing to do with prejudice or purity, but the fact that I have eyes, ears, and a brain, and i know how to use them.

And this attitude goes towards piers as well. There's a slew of new voters who are excited about their diluted idea of Liberty but instead of welcoming them and encouraging them to learn you want to mash their heads into the dirt with all their "mistakes". I don't see how, in your position, you're so undiplomatic :d

Perhaps you only have a fraction of the data and this is distorting your analysis. I get along great with Trump supporters on Facebook. It's only you lot here on RPFs who have chosen to shyt all over our principles and then tried to smear your shyt all over our faces.

You want to know why I wouldn't piss on a RPF Trump supporter if he was on fire, while most of my best friends on Facebook are.....Trump supporters?

Ask around. Someone will clue you in on the last year in this place.

[Carlybee]

I didn't vote for him. Now he's backpedaling on everything, embracing the neocon cabal. Not a bit of liberty there and never was.