The Decline And Fall of the Liberty Movement, Illustrated

[Ender]

Some of you guys take things way to personal. If you disagree with someone, big deal. These forums are for debating not arguing. I see some people carrying bad feelings from one thread and unloading on another. That boggles my mind. I've simultaneously had screaming matches with Christianliberty on one thread and a cordial discussion on another. I wish we could all go out and I could buy y'all a beer.

That's what is really killing this place.

ON. THE. NOSE.

All the name-calling, neg repping, and finger-pointing has really gotten out of hand.

Can we just STOP?

[Ender]

I didn't work my ass off for liberty all these years just to give deliberate saboteurs a pass on intentionally wrecking the movement.

I will diligently work for the rest of my life to make sure anyone professing adherence to any form of anarchism is purged from any political organization or movement in which I will have influence, and to warn others of the damage that those who tolerate them will inevitably suffer.

No matter how broadly I may agree with them on many conclusion-principles (their reasoning is terrible but that's another topic), it has been proven without a reasonable doubt that any organization with an anarchist in it is going to be less useful and effective than those with none.

So if you want any progress towards liberty in your lifetime, it is all but compulsory to start by identifying anarchists and purge them from the political system.

Murray Rothbard

Society Without a State

By Murray N. Rothbard

Murray Rothbard delivered this talk 32 years ago at the American Society for Political and Legal Philosophy (ASPLP), Washington, DC: December 28, 1974. It was first published in The Libertarian Forum, volume 7.1, January 1975, available in PDF.

In attempting to outline how a “society without a state” – that is, an anarchist society – might function successfully, I would first like to defuse two common but mistaken criticisms of this approach. First, is the argument that in providing for such defense or protection services as courts, police, or even law itself, I am simply smuggling the state back into society in another form, and that therefore the system I am both analyzing and advocating is not “really” anarchism.

This sort of criticism can only involve us in an endless and arid dispute over semantics. Let me say from the beginning that I define the state as that institution which possesses one or both (almost always both) of the following properties: (1) it acquires its income by the physical coercion known as “taxation”; and (2) it asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area. An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with my definition, a state.

On the other hand, I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of an individual. Anarchists oppose the state because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/...hism-can-work/

^^THIS^^ is true anarchism and we do not want to purge it.

[CCTelander]

He takes an awful lot of credit for a dead movement which changed precisely nothing.

That's because those goddamned anarchists have ruined everything. If we could just purge those asshats we'd hacve liberty restored in a decade. Two, tops.

What a petulant child.

[Origanalist]

I didn't work my ass off for liberty all these years just to give deliberate saboteurs a pass on intentionally wrecking the movement.

I will diligently work for the rest of my life to make sure anyone professing adherence to any form of anarchism is purged from any political organization or movement in which I will have influence, and to warn others of the damage that those who tolerate them will inevitably suffer.

No matter how broadly I may agree with them on many conclusion-principles (their reasoning is terrible but that's another topic), it has been proven without a reasonable doubt that any organization with an anarchist in it is going to be less useful and effective than those with none.

So if you want any progress towards liberty in your lifetime, it is all but compulsory to start by identifying anarchists and purge them from the political system.

So....it's meltdown time again?

[CCTelander]

So....it's meltdown time again?

Nothing says "Liberty!" like a good, old fashioned purge.

Amirite?

[Origanalist]

Nothing says "Liberty!" like a good, old fashioned purge.

Amirite?

Uncle Joe knows.

[CCTelander]

Uncle Joe knows.

I'd +rep you if I could.

[r3volution 3.0]

Regarding the dearly departed thoughtomator's anti-anarchist screed...

From the perspective of a pragmatic minarchist, ancaps do tend to be a problem: not because of their principles, but because they tend to be purists when it comes to practical efforts to realize those principles, to a degree that's counterproductive (we all have our litmus tests, but some are unreasonably strict). Some ancaps are like this, some aren't, as we see here on RPF (e.g. some supported Rand, some didn't); nor is this a problem unique to anarchism (though of libertarians afflicted, a disproportionate number are ancaps). But if ancaps are a problem, they're a relatively minor one: that fly that keep landing on your neck. It's the giant, retarded, Messicun-hating, orange toupeed gorilla in the room which is the real problem facing the liberty movement at the moment.

[GunnyFreedom]

//

[Occam's Banana]

I'd +rep you if I could.

Covered.

I didn't work my ass off for liberty all these years just to give deliberate saboteurs a pass on intentionally wrecking the movement.

I will diligently work for the rest of my life to make sure anyone professing adherence to any form of anarchism is purged from any political organization or movement in which I will have influence, and to warn others of the damage that those who tolerate them will inevitably suffer.

No matter how broadly I may agree with them on many conclusion-principles (their reasoning is terrible but that's another topic), it has been proven without a reasonable doubt that any organization with an anarchist in it is going to be less useful and effective than those with none.

So if you want any progress towards liberty in your lifetime, it is all but compulsory to start by identifying anarchists and purge them from the political system.

LOL. Sure. Okay ... "Please don't throw us into the briar patch, Brer Fox!" LOL ...

"I've got you this time, Brer Rabbit," said Brer Fox, jumping up and shaking off the dust. "You've sassed me for the very last time. Now I wonder what I should do with you?"

Brer Rabbit's eyes got very large. "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

"Maybe I should roast you over a fire and eat you," mused Brer Fox. "No, that's too much trouble. Maybe I'll hang you instead."

"Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

"If I'm going to hang you, I'll need some string," said Brer Fox. "And I don't have any string handy. But the stream's not far away, so maybe I'll drown you instead."

"Drown me! Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

"The briar patch, eh?" said Brer Fox. "What a wonderful idea! You'll be torn into little pieces!"

Grabbing up the tar-covered rabbit, Brer Fox swung him around and around and then flung him head over heels into the briar patch. Brer Rabbit let out such a scream as he fell that all of Brer Fox's fur stood straight up. Brer Rabbit fell into the briar bushes with a crash and a mighty thump. Then there was silence.

Brer Fox cocked one ear toward the briar patch, listening for whimpers of pain. But he heard nothing. Brer Fox cocked the other ear toward the briar patch, listening for Brer Rabbit's death rattle. He heard nothing.

Then Brer Fox heard someone calling his name. He turned around and looked up the hill. Brer Rabbit was sitting on a log combing the tar out of his fur with a wood chip and looking smug.

"I was bred and born in the briar patch, Brer Fox," he called. "Born and bred in the briar patch."

And Brer Rabbit skipped away as merry as a cricket while Brer Fox ground his teeth in rage and went home.

-- from "Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby" as retold by S.E. Schlosser

[Tywysog Cymru]

Rome, 50 BC, a group of Roman liberty lovers meet at the forum.

Gaius: This Julius Caesar guy is great! He's really shaking things up! He needs our support!

Titus: No, Julius Caesar is not a friend of liberty. He is an aspiring strongman and we should oppose him.

Quintus: TITUS CUCKOLDUS MAXIMUS EST!

Flavius: Purists like you are why we never accomplish anything.

Romulus: He isn't perfect, but there's this one really corrupt senator who doesn't like him.

Titus: I despair for Rome.

[GunnyFreedom]

I have never understood this argument that "person A must be ok because person B whom I hate, hates them."

That's the very argument that almost got us into nuclear armageddon with the Soviet Union most of my life growing up.

Stalin hated Hitler, so Stalin must be okay and worthy of allying with? Yeah, that didn't work out so well.

That argument never works out well.

[Occam's Banana]

I have never understood this argument that "person A must be ok because person B whom I hate, hates them."

That's the very argument that almost got us into nuclear armageddon with the Soviet Union most of my life growing up.

Stalin hated Hitler, so Stalin must be okay and worthy of allying with? Yeah, that didn't work out so well.

That argument never works out well.

Reported for beta cuck purism.

(And I'm pretty sure there's a MAGA violation in there somewhere, too ...)

[The Gold Standard]

It takes a real purist, anarchist $#@! to oppose a hero like Trump just because he supports stop-and-frisk, SWAT raids, caging people inside the borders, universal health care, wars for foreign oil, heavy taxes on imports, inflation, federal make work projects, eminent domain, and artificially low interest rates. No wonder they never get anything done.

[Carlybee]

I seriously hate the word cuck

[Jamesiv1]

It takes a real purist, anarchist $#@! to oppose a hero like Trump just because he supports stop-and-frisk, SWAT raids, caging people inside the borders, universal health care, wars for foreign oil, heavy taxes on imports, inflation, federal make work projects, eminent domain, and artificially low interest rates. No wonder they never get anything done.

Damn right.

Spoken like a real American.

[undergroundrr]

ancaps do tend to be a problem: not because of their principles, but because they tend to be purists when it comes to practical efforts to
realize those principles, to a degree that's counterproductive

I think it's down to the individual person. Methodology and end result are two different things. I'm an ancap and I would have been totally comfortable with Johnson/Weld in a transitional sense.

Some people quit cold turkey, some take a more incremental approach.

[CCTelander]

It takes a real purist, anarchist $#@! to oppose a hero like Trump just because he supports stop-and-frisk, SWAT raids, caging people inside the borders, universal health care, wars for foreign oil, heavy taxes on imports, inflation, federal make work projects, eminent domain, and artificially low interest rates. No wonder they never get anything done.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Gold Standard again."

[r3volution 3.0]

I think it's down to the individual person. Methodology and end result are two different things. I'm an ancap and I would have been totally comfortable with Johnson/Weld in a transitional sense.

Some people quit cold turkey, some take a more incremental approach.

Absolutely

Not all libertarians (ancaps or otherwise) appreciate that distinction.

[r3volution 3.0]

bump

[enhanced_deficit]

There could be some positive signs though lately with disgraced DGP's PSOs (political slave owners) relatively diminished power.


Rand Paul wants to know if he was spied on, too

Rand Paul: Second senator informs him he was under surveillance as well.

[PierzStyx]

This is where you get it wrong Gunny. No one said they wanted Trump over any Liberty candidate. He's the guy we have and he seems approachable with liberty ideas. We want to take the opportunity to advance our Constitutional values. You're being a "purist" because you're shutting out any possibility of conversion. And this attitude goes towards piers as well. There's a slew of new voters who are excited about their diluted idea of Liberty but instead of welcoming them and encouraging them to learn you want to mash their heads into the dirt with all their "mistakes". I don't see how, in your position, you're so undiplomatic :d

Anyone who thinks Trump is approachable with "liberty ideas" is an idiot or a sucker. Same garbage argument made for every garbage politician. Vote Romney/McCain/Bush/Dole/Bush/ et. al beaus they're better than the alternative. In what way? No way. Same ruler, different tie color.

[PierzStyx]

I appreciate the sentiment, but I am not disappointed in Ron Paul at all. I am proud of him. Righteousness is never wrong.

Agreed. I am a voluntaryist. I am so because of the ideas that Ron Paul introduced me to. And he has been the only politician I know of who I honestly believe would trying and shrink the government, reduce federal power, and end foreign wars. He proved this again and again with his record and his reasoning. Therefore, even when I disagreed with him, I trusted him and could vote for him. There isn't a similar politician in all of government who I trust in that same way and therefore I won't vote for them.

[Saint Vitus]

You're missing the part in the cartoon where Rand ran an absolutely abysmal campaign, polled at less than 1%, couldn't win a single state, sold out the grassroots and abandoned his fathers rhetoric in favor of appealing to neocons.

[Anti Federalist]

Covered.



LOL. Sure. Okay ... "Please don't throw us into the briar patch, Brer Fox!" LOL ...

"I've got you this time, Brer Rabbit," said Brer Fox, jumping up and shaking off the dust. "You've sassed me for the very last time. Now I wonder what I should do with you?"

Brer Rabbit's eyes got very large. "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

"Maybe I should roast you over a fire and eat you," mused Brer Fox. "No, that's too much trouble. Maybe I'll hang you instead."

"Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

"If I'm going to hang you, I'll need some string," said Brer Fox. "And I don't have any string handy. But the stream's not far away, so maybe I'll drown you instead."

"Drown me! Roast me! Hang me! Do whatever you please," said Brer Rabbit. "Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch."

"The briar patch, eh?" said Brer Fox. "What a wonderful idea! You'll be torn into little pieces!"

Grabbing up the tar-covered rabbit, Brer Fox swung him around and around and then flung him head over heels into the briar patch. Brer Rabbit let out such a scream as he fell that all of Brer Fox's fur stood straight up. Brer Rabbit fell into the briar bushes with a crash and a mighty thump. Then there was silence.

Brer Fox cocked one ear toward the briar patch, listening for whimpers of pain. But he heard nothing. Brer Fox cocked the other ear toward the briar patch, listening for Brer Rabbit's death rattle. He heard nothing.

Then Brer Fox heard someone calling his name. He turned around and looked up the hill. Brer Rabbit was sitting on a log combing the tar out of his fur with a wood chip and looking smug.

"I was bred and born in the briar patch, Brer Fox," he called. "Born and bred in the briar patch."

And Brer Rabbit skipped away as merry as a cricket while Brer Fox ground his teeth in rage and went home.

-- from "Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby" as retold by S.E. Schlosser

How it was first told...

HOW MR. RABBIT WAS TOO SHARP FOR MR. FOX

"Uncle Remus, " said the little boy one evening, when he had found the old
man with little or nothing to do, "did the fox kill and eat the rabbit when
he caught him with the Tar-Baby?"

"Law, honey, ain't I tell you 'bout dat?" replied the old darkey, chuckling
slyly. "I 'clar ter grashus I ought er tole you dat, but ole man Nod wuz
ridin' on my eyelids twel a leetle mo'n I'd a dis'member'd my own name, en
den on to dat here come yo' mammy hollerin' atter you.

"W'at I tell you w'en I fus' begin? I tole you Brer Rabbit wuz a monstus
soon beas'; leas'ways dat's w'at I laid out fer ter tell you. Well, den,
honey, don't you go en make no udder kalkalashuns, kaze in dem days Brer
Rabbit en his fambly wuz at de head er de gang w'en enny racket wuz en han',
en dar dey stayed. 'Fo' you begins fer ter wipe yo' eyes 'bout Brer Rabbit,
you wait en see wha'bouts Brer Rabbit gwineter fetch up at. But dat's needer
yer ner dar.

"W'en Brer Fox fine Brer Rabbit mixt up wid de Tar-baby, he feel mighty
good, en he roll on de groun' en laff. Bimeby he up'n say, sezee:

"'Well, I speck I got you did time, Brer Rabbit,' sezee; 'maybe I ain't but
I speck I is. You been runnin' 'roun' here sassin' atter me a mighty long
time, but I speck you done come ter de cen' er de row. You bin currin' up
yo' capers en bouncin' 'roun' in dis naberhood ontwel you come ter b'leeve
yo'se'f de boss er de whole gang. En der youer allers some'rs whar you got
no bixness,' ses Brer Fox, sezee. 'Who ax you fer ter come en strike up a
'quaintence wid dish yer Tar-Baby? En who stuck you up dar whar you iz?
Nobody in de 'roun' worril. You des tuck en jam yo'se'f on dat Tar-Baby
widout waintin' fer enny invite,' sez Brer Fox, sezee, 'en dar you is, en
dar you'll stay twel I fixes up a bresh-pile and fires her up, kaze I'm
gwinteter bobbycue you dis day, sho,' sez Brer Fox, sezee.

"Den Brer Rabbit talk mighty 'umble,

"'I don't keer w'at you do wid me, Brer Fox,' sezee, 'so you don't fling me
in dat brier-patch. Roas' me, Brer Fox,' sezee, 'but don't fling me in dat
brier-patch,' sezee.

"'I ain't got no string,' sez Brer Fox, sezee, 'en now I speck I'll hatter
drwon you,' sezee.

"'Drown me des ez deep es you please, Brer Fox," sez Brer Rabbit, sezee,
'but do don't fling me in dat brier-patch, ' sezee.

"'Dey ain't no water nigh,' sez Brer Fox, sezee, 'en now I speck I'll hatter
skin you,' sezee.

"'Skin me, Brer Fox,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, 'snatch out my eyeballs, t'ar
out my yeras by de roots, en cut off my legs,' sezee, 'but do please, Brer
Fox, don't fling me in dat brier-patch,' sezee.

"Co'se Brer Fox wnater hurt Brer Rabbit bad ez he kin, so he cotch 'im by de
behime legs en slung 'im right in de middle er de brierpatch. dar wuz a
considerbul flutter whar Brer Rabbit struck de bushes, en Brer Fox sorter
hang 'roun' fer ter see w'at wuz gwinter happen. Bimeby he hear somebody
call im, en way up de hill he see Brer Rabbit settin' crosslegged on a
chinkapin log koamin' de pitch outen his har wid a chip. Den Brer Fox know
dat he bin swop off mighty bad. Brer Rabbit wuz bleedzed fer ter fling back
some er his sass, en he holler out:

"'Bred en bawn in a brier-patch, Brer Fox--bred en bawn in a brier-patch!'
en wid dat he skip out des ez lively as a cricket in de embers."

[Occam's Banana]

How it was first told...

HOW MR. RABBIT WAS TOO SHARP FOR MR. FOX

"Uncle Remus, " said the little boy one evening, when he had found the old
man with little or nothing to do, "did the fox kill and eat the rabbit when
he caught him with the Tar-Baby?"

"Law, honey, ain't I tell you 'bout dat?" replied the old darkey, chuckling
slyly. "I 'clar ter grashus I ought er tole you dat, but ole man Nod wuz
ridin' on my eyelids twel a leetle mo'n I'd a dis'member'd my own name, en
den on to dat here come yo' mammy hollerin' atter you.

"W'at I tell you w'en I fus' begin? I tole you Brer Rabbit wuz a monstus
soon beas'; leas'ways dat's w'at I laid out fer ter tell you. Well, den,
honey, don't you go en make no udder kalkalashuns, kaze in dem days Brer
Rabbit en his fambly wuz at de head er de gang w'en enny racket wuz en han',
en dar dey stayed. 'Fo' you begins fer ter wipe yo' eyes 'bout Brer Rabbit,
you wait en see wha'bouts Brer Rabbit gwineter fetch up at. But dat's needer
yer ner dar.

"W'en Brer Fox fine Brer Rabbit mixt up wid de Tar-baby, he feel mighty
good, en he roll on de groun' en laff. Bimeby he up'n say, sezee:

"'Well, I speck I got you did time, Brer Rabbit,' sezee; 'maybe I ain't but
I speck I is. You been runnin' 'roun' here sassin' atter me a mighty long
time, but I speck you done come ter de cen' er de row. You bin currin' up
yo' capers en bouncin' 'roun' in dis naberhood ontwel you come ter b'leeve
yo'se'f de boss er de whole gang. En der youer allers some'rs whar you got
no bixness,' ses Brer Fox, sezee. 'Who ax you fer ter come en strike up a
'quaintence wid dish yer Tar-Baby? En who stuck you up dar whar you iz?
Nobody in de 'roun' worril. You des tuck en jam yo'se'f on dat Tar-Baby
widout waintin' fer enny invite,' sez Brer Fox, sezee, 'en dar you is, en
dar you'll stay twel I fixes up a bresh-pile and fires her up, kaze I'm
gwinteter bobbycue you dis day, sho,' sez Brer Fox, sezee.

"Den Brer Rabbit talk mighty 'umble,

"'I don't keer w'at you do wid me, Brer Fox,' sezee, 'so you don't fling me
in dat brier-patch. Roas' me, Brer Fox,' sezee, 'but don't fling me in dat
brier-patch,' sezee.

"'I ain't got no string,' sez Brer Fox, sezee, 'en now I speck I'll hatter
drwon you,' sezee.

"'Drown me des ez deep es you please, Brer Fox," sez Brer Rabbit, sezee,
'but do don't fling me in dat brier-patch, ' sezee.

"'Dey ain't no water nigh,' sez Brer Fox, sezee, 'en now I speck I'll hatter
skin you,' sezee.

"'Skin me, Brer Fox,' sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, 'snatch out my eyeballs, t'ar
out my yeras by de roots, en cut off my legs,' sezee, 'but do please, Brer
Fox, don't fling me in dat brier-patch,' sezee.

"Co'se Brer Fox wnater hurt Brer Rabbit bad ez he kin, so he cotch 'im by de
behime legs en slung 'im right in de middle er de brierpatch. dar wuz a
considerbul flutter whar Brer Rabbit struck de bushes, en Brer Fox sorter
hang 'roun' fer ter see w'at wuz gwinter happen. Bimeby he hear somebody
call im, en way up de hill he see Brer Rabbit settin' crosslegged on a
chinkapin log koamin' de pitch outen his har wid a chip. Den Brer Fox know
dat he bin swop off mighty bad. Brer Rabbit wuz bleedzed fer ter fling back
some er his sass, en he holler out:

"'Bred en bawn in a brier-patch, Brer Fox--bred en bawn in a brier-patch!'
en wid dat he skip out des ez lively as a cricket in de embers."

LOL. Though it is not used in the above, I remember back when I encountered the word "oncet" in a variety of places. I tried to read it phonetically as "onset" or "onket," neither of which made any sense. I couldn't figure out what the hell it was supposed to mean. Context didn't matter much - more often than not, omitting the word didn't seem to make any difference to the sense of the sentences in which it appeared. [Example: "Oncet I went to New York City" - or "I went to New York City oncet."]

It drove me nuts until I finally encountered it spelled more phonetically as "wunst," Then a light bulb went off - "oncet" was just a transcription of "once" as pronounced with a terminating plosive. Perhaps I might have "gotten" it sooner if a "d" had been used instead of "t" ... (and this was back before you could look up things like "oncet" on Wiktionary or the like ...)

Anyway, ever since then, I have absolutely detested idiosyncratic dialect mimicry - not because of "political correctness" or any such thing, but just because it's so damn hard to parse (especially when it's smeared on as thickly as it is above).

[Anti Federalist]

LOL. Though it is not used in the above, I remember back when I encountered the word "oncet" in a variety of places. I tried to read it phonetically as "onset" or "onket," neither of which made any sense. I couldn't figure out what the hell it was supposed to mean. Context didn't matter much - more often than not, omitting the word didn't seem to make any difference to the sense of the sentences in which it appeared. [Example: "Oncet I went to New York City" - or "I went to New York City oncet."]

It drove me nuts until I finally encountered it spelled more phonetically as "wunst," Then a light bulb went off - "oncet" was just a transcription of "once" as pronounced with a terminating plosive. Perhaps I might have "gotten" it sooner if a "d" had been used instead of "t" ... (and this was back before you could look up things like "oncet" on Wiktionary or the like ...)

Anyway, ever since then, I have absolutely detested idiosyncratic dialect mimicry - not because of "political correctness" or any such thing, but just because it's so damn hard to parse (especially when it's smeared on as thickly as it is above).

LOLOLOLOL...oh I'm dying over here...

One of my favorites from this passage:

kalkalashuns = calculations