What Does "Foreknowledge" Mean In The Bible?

[Sola_Fide]

Many people read the Bible and think the word "foreknowledge" means something like this: God looking down the corridors of time and seeing something in advance. This is not the way the Biblical writers used the term. Look at how they used it:

Romans 8:29

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

The object of "knowledge" or "knowing" is always set on individuals, not actions or events.

Romans 11:2

God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:

You see, foreknowledge is not seeing events in the future, it is a term of relationship. It is a term that denotes that God has entered into a special relationship with an individual.

I Peter 1:2

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

In the Bible, Adam "knew" Eve. What is implied in the "knowing" is that Adam knew Eve sexually. This was a term of intimate relationship. In the end, Jesus will say to the goats "I never KNEW you", meaning that Jesus never had an intimate relationship with them.

Election is based on this relational situation. God has set his love on the elect and entered into relationship with them. And that is the wonderful thing about foreknowledge: That it is not God seeing events in the future, but it is God out of love choosing to enter into a relationship with an individual and presenting them faultless before Him.

[Natural Citizen]

So you're saying that God planned who would and would not 1 - seek and 2 - find the gift of Grace? While I agree that Grace comes from God, I believe that it is found by those who seek and are provided its gift. What you're saying seems to be that God pre-plans who will and will not seek/find a relationship/faith in/with Him. Is that what you're saying?

That's the Calvinist doctrine, isn't it? That it's all pre-decided. I've ever really wrapped my head around what the Calvinist doctrine is at its core. But I think that's it. Am I right or wrong about that, S_F?

As far as "doctrine" itself goes, I've concluded that people should run away from EO and not look back. Seems like they're largely being taught to venerate as opposed to basing their faith on the actual teachings of Christ. Which, of course, has been going on for thousands of years in the Roman Church. It's so twisted. I almost want to call it evil (the entity, that is...not the people who sit in the pews...they don't really know). And I don't really care if anyone feels offended when I say that. Respectfully. We can certainly look at history, culture, and governments (particularly governments) to find the fruits of their works as an entity and have that discussion.

I haven't wrapped myself around Calvinism, though.

I will say, though, that I've grown to understand that "doctrine" gets in the way of true faith. I'm a simple man. I like simple.

[Superfluous Man]

So you're saying that God planned who would and would not find Grace? While I agree that Grace comes from God, I believe that it is found by those who seek it.

But some seek it and others don't, and ultimately all of those decisions either to seek grace or not to seek it are caused by God. And when God brings about the seeking of grace by someone so as to bestow grace on them, that work of God itself is an act of grace.

[Natural Citizen]

But some seek it and others don't, and ultimately all of those decisions either to seek grace or not to seek it are caused by God. And when God brings about the seeking of grace by someone so as to bestow grace on them, that work of God itself is an act of grace.

Hm. I don't know that seeking Grace is something as simple as just looking for something. Moments of Grace are realized in very special circumstances in our lives. These are moments when we actually find our faith. So while I agree that God provides us his Grace should we seek it, it's not a simple matter as planning a schematic for hunting an Easter egg.

From what S_F is saying (if I'm understanding him correctly) is that God pre-determines who will seek faith and who will be provided the gift of Grace. Which effectively voids man's desire (his will) to find his faith. His will to find and become one with God. It seems like man's ups and downs in life which cause him to seek God and find faith in Him are all for nothing by S_F's model. And I simply don't believe that life and all that comes with it that leads us to seek Grace is all for nothing.

Of course, it wasn't until I found my faith that I was able to realize this. We're led to seek Grace, I'll agree. If that's what S_F is saying. I don't know what he's saying specifically. That's why I asked.

So, yeah. I'll agree that we're led to seek Grace. If that's what he's saying. And I believe that God determines these moments. At least that's how I came to Christ. I would have called it dumb luck a couple of years ago. Speaking only for myself, what I found was not really what I thought I as looking for. What I found, however, was greater than what I thought I was looking for. It's truly amazing in hindsight.

I don't know. I'm still growing. And I have a lot of growing to do yet. But I have a problem with "doctrines." Seems like doctrine gets in the way of true Grace. Doctrines are very worldly creations in my view and stimulate the foolish notion of Grace by works. As an observer, it seems like they take the place of Christ's teachings in order to maybe sacrifice some personal, cultural and governmental morality and responsiblilty. As I'd mentioned, I'm a simple man.

[Superfluous Man]

Hm. I don't know that seeking Grace is something as simple as just looking for something.

Well, whatever seeking grace is, you brought it up, and what I said still applies.

Which effectively voids man's desire (his will) to find his faith.

It doesn't void that, it just means that it, like everything else that happens, is caused by an efficient cause, rather than being haphazard.

[Natural Citizen]

Well, whatever seeking grace is, you brought it up, and what I said still applies.



It doesn't void that, it just means that it, like everything else that happens, is caused by an efficient cause, rather than being haphazard.

Well let's wait for S_F to clarify his point. We can get back to your points later. If he's talking about Salvation by Works, then, we should recall that Jesus already paid that price. We ought not give legitimacy to any doctrine that tells us that we must buy our Salvation by cashing in our works. That's false Gospel.

[pcosmar]

I will say, though, that I've grown to understand that "doctrine" gets in the way of true faith. I'm a simple man. I like simple.

I agree . Religion gets in the way of the truth. doctrines of men have always been flawed.

[Natural Citizen]

Well, whatever seeking grace is...

Finding. Not seeking.

[Sola_Fide]

Well let's wait for S_F to clarify his point. We can get back to your points later. If he's talking about Salvation by Works, then, we should recall that Jesus already paid that price. We ought not give legitimacy to any doctrine that tells us that we must buy our Salvation by cashing in our works. That's false Gospel.

Well, let's look at what Jesus said. He said:

John 6:44

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Two things to note:

1. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

2. The ones who are drawn are the same ones that are raised on the last day.

When the Bible describes salvation, there is no question that salvation, from the very first drawing, to the culmination of resurrection, is wholly a work of God. This is also described in Romans chapter 8. A Christian rejoices and takes comfort in the fact that God alone is responsible for his salvation.

[Natural Citizen]

Well, let's look at what Jesus said. He said:



Two things to note:

1. No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them.

2. The ones who are drawn are the same ones that are raised on the last day. But I may not agree with you on His terms.

When the Bible describes salvation, there is no question that salvation, from the very first drawing, to the culmination of resurrection, is wholly a work of God. This is also described in Romans chapter 8. A Christian rejoices and takes comfort in the fact that God alone is responsible for his salvation.

So, then, Jesus died in vein?

You're confusing me, S_F. I agree with you that Salvation comes from God.

Anyway, do you believe in Salvation by Works? That is to ask, do you believe that God gives Salvation based on one's Works alone?J ust answer that question for me if you wouldn't mind. I'm trying to figure out the point you're trying to make in the op.

I'm serious now, S_F. I'm not debating you here. I've no intention of debating you. I just want to discuss it.

[Sola_Fide]

So, then, Jesus died in vein?

No way! He died so that the righteous requirements of the law would be fulfilled on behalf of the elect so they can stand in the presence of the Father with no sin.

God is holy and will not allow sin in His presence. So God imputes the sinless life of Jesus to the elect and accounts them as righteous. This is described in the first 8 chapters of the book of Romans. It's awesome when you think about it.

[Natural Citizen]

No way! He died so that the righteous requirements of the law would be fulfilled on behalf of the elect so they can stand in the presence of the Father with no sin.

God is holy and will not allow sin in His presence. So God imputes the sinless life of Jesus to the elect and accounts them as righteous. This is described in the first 8 chapters of the book of Romans. It's awesome when you think about it.

Okay. Good. Thanks.

Now God's Elect. I'm of the belief that all men are saved through faith. Which is why I asked you about Works. I wanted to be clear where you were coming from.

So I don't believe that God pre-determines who will find faith in Him. Do you? Non-Elect meaning unbelievers. Man has to have some contribution t his destiny. No? Isn't that what discipleship is about? To bring men to know God in, as you said, an intimate way? Are proper human relations not based on the spritual relationship that man has with God because of his Divine origin?

Of course, I'm not biblically fluent either. I can philosophise like a mofo in matters not relative to Faith and God. Admittely, though, when it comes to the Bible I just can't do that. I'm not of the capacity ). Not yet anyway. (although I'm well read in terms of pre-biblical writings) As I said, I'm a simple man, S_F. I really am. So the discussion interests me.

[Natural Citizen]

So foreknowledge, I guess so. I won't doubt that. But foredeciding, I don't know about, S_F. And, of course, I'm speaking merely for myself there. I personally don't know about that.

[Sola_Fide]

Now God's Elect. I'm of the belief that all men are saved through faith. Which is why I asked you about Works. I wanted to be clear where you were coming from.

So I don't believe that God pre-determines who will find faith in Him. Do you? Non-Elect meaning unbelievers.

Let's go to the verse that directly answers that:

Ephesians 2:8-9

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

You see, the faith itself is the gift.

[helmuth_hubener]

Sola, you're back! Welcome!

Election is based on this relational situation.

I thought the election was based on which you like less: sexism or immigration?

[wizardwatson]

If works don't get you close to God, then surely pondering endlessly about election even less so.

[Sola_Fide]

If works don't get you close to God, then surely pondering endlessly about election even less so.

I agree. Nothing a man does can get him close to God. That's because salvation is all of God and none of man.

[PositiveBodyImage]

Very good thread! I'm looking forward to reading more about this interesting topic.

[PositiveBodyImage]

I agree. Nothing a man does can get him close to God. That's because salvation is all of God and none of man.

Do you believe in free will?

[wizardwatson]

Do you believe in free will?

[wizardwatson]

I agree. Nothing a man does can get him close to God. That's because salvation is all of God and none of man.

I don't know about all that. His house does have a Door.

[Sola_Fide]

Do you believe in free will?

No. I believe Jesus. Jesus said:

John 8:34

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin".

Jesus said the will is not free, it is a slave to sin.

[Sola_Fide]

I don't know about all that. His house does have a Door.

I know you don't know.

[wizardwatson]

I know you don't know.

Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. - Paul the Apostle 1 Cor 8

[Natural Citizen]

Let's go to the verse that directly answers that:

Ephesians 2:8-9

it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.

You see, the faith itself is the gift.

Mm. Yeah. Good stuff, S_F.

[Natural Citizen]

Heh. I'm sure he does.

[Natural Citizen]

Very good thread! I'm looking forward to reading more about this interesting topic.

What up, eddy? You've been quiet lately.

[PositiveBodyImage]

No. I believe Jesus. Jesus said:

Jesus said the will is not free, it is a slave to sin.

Interesting.

What do you think of Romans 9?

[Sola_Fide]

Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. - Paul the Apostle 1 Cor 8

What is Paul talking about in 1st Corinthians 8, Wizard? Read the sentence before it and the sentence after it.

[Sola_Fide]

Double.