It's even more unbecoming when played seriously!Originally Posted by presence
What then is "value" if not based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions?
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
There, but for the grace of God, go most of us.
I always give to beggars- it is good for me to give as well as them to receive.
There is no spoon.
Pres, I'm all over this forwards and backwards. See here.
But just because everything in the world is nebulous and subjective and undefinable and one big undifferentiated blob in academic one sense does not mean that there aren't big, real differences between actions in every other possible sense. There are. For example:
There are two ways to get money in this life: you earn it, or you scam it.
The blacksmith: earns it.
The plumber: earns it.
The 3D printer: earns it.
Tell me, what does the beggar do to earn his bread? Zip. What productive work does he spend his sweat and his brainpower on? Zip. So, how does he get his money?
He scams it.
Do you like there to be filthy, disgusting beggars on every street corner? You think that is the ideal city, one where you encounter human dross camping out with their scattered cardboard, plastic debris, and human filth everywhere you go?
No?
Then stop paying these scammers to do it. You are paying them!
You pay for something, you get more of it. Law of economics. Even presence will agree with that one.
does the beggar not provide at least a listening ear for the philanthropist’s soap box?
what does the shipwrecked water treading man do to earn a spot aboard your passing vessel?
Last edited by presence; 10-28-2016 at 12:29 PM.
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
And that's the problem! As I explained to Ender (and you agree, yes?) the "good and service" that these parasites are providing is: infesting your city with filthy harrassing beggars.
You pay for it? You must want it.
how is this any different than keeping a pet?
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
So you're not going to admit to me that you agree? What's the deal? Are we having a real conversation or what?
Because your "pets" are ruining everyone else's quality of life!
If you put out a gallon of milk every day for the stray cats, OK, you're going to get more stray cats. If you were to take them all in and keep them all locked away inside your house, that's fine. Actually, no it's not, it's mental. No one should do that, either. But if you're putting out the milk on the porch every morning and then letting them continue to run feral around the neighborhood, you are compounding being mental with being a menace.
That's what people who give money to beggars are: they are mental and they are menaces, bringing down the neighborhood into the gutter by feeding its refuse. Please, guys, wake up! Get a brain! Don't encourage them! They are just scammers! If no one paid them for being eyesores and losers trashing up the city, they would stop doing so. Right now, it's their job. You are paying them to do that.
But the owners of the road are even worse. They are even more culpable. Why in the world are these people not all kicked off, immediately, for trespassing? It should be almost instant. It would be trivially easy. The entire ugly, disgusting, stupid scam could be shut down, snap your fingers, just like that. Why isn't it? Why in the world does the road owner, the government, tolerate this refuse? They are breaking the law. In almost any jurisdiction, they are breaking the law. But now they want to legalize it and give permits? Permits?!?! These worthless bums need to get off the streets, every single one of them. If not, they should be arrested. Perhaps deported.
In a voluntarist world with private roads, private sidewalks, and private everything, this is exactly what would happen in any decent neighborhood.
Don't tolerate BUMS!
Being a BUM is not socially acceptable behavior.
But in a voluntarist society you wouldn't be asking government to do this for you. Are you becoming a statist? Sounds like it.
Nay, I am railing against the government's predictable mismanagement of its roads, sidewalks, parks, and rights of way.
In a free world, things'd be run like Disney Land. Instead, they're run like Central Park. We'd have gated communities. Instead we have bums allowed to run roughshod, beg, dump trash, and defecate wherever it suits them.
Again, such an insane, dystopia outcome is only to be expected when the State is in charge.
Sorry, but I follow that Jesus guy- heard of Him?
You're so caught up in The Matrix you think it's real life. And I haven't seen any panhandlers scattering filth everywhere- more like the spoiled brats that think they are better than everyone else.
There is no spoon.
I always tell homeless people to buy beer when I give em money.I would say, I have a pretty good idea were my money's going when I give it to a wineo. Can't say as much for a tax collector..
I am the spoon.
How is saying thank you providing a service?
I am the spoon.
How exactly is that a scam?
I am the spoon.
Panhandlers need to be regulated and get permits to beg in designated areas. These areas need to have cameras in place that can monitor transactions. States need to charge taxes on the transactions. States need their cut whenever money changes hands.
You forgot the 3rd way that 50+% of the populace employs and that's government..
The government "employees" will claim they "work" for their money, the elected will claim they do too, same with the appointed but honestly not a one of 'em is paid voluntarily by Americans who provide tangible goods or even visible services. The pensioner and the disabled will claim it's owed them, the poor too..
The beggar at least doesn't employ force of arms to extract his lucre....
How is playing the harmonica providing a service?
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
Late last night before repos, my sweetheart called to me
"Darling, you should hurry, you should come to bed, I'm cold,
You shouldn't keep your baby waiting, you should be cooperating
You should learn to do the things you're told."
Something in her tone of voice was somewhat less than kind
This person telling me the things I should or shouldn't do
A bell went off inside my head, I ran right up beside that bed
I said, "Baby, you should learn a thing or two.
Like you should squeeze the toothpaste from the end, not from the top
You should pay attention to those prices when we shop
I think you should know better than to tell me things that I should do
Don't should on me and I won't should on you
And while we're on the subject, here are certain other things, my dear
You should be aware of I should think you shouldn't show
Little things but ones I'm sure you really should take care of
Like the way you think and everything you know."
You should watch the way you eat, I think you're eating too much meat
I think that you should change the clothes you wear
You should change your TV channels, those polyester sheets to flannels
You should change the way you do your hair
I only want what's best for you, why ever won't you listen?
I should know by now what you should put your emphasis in
We should both know better than to tell each other what to do
Don't should on me and I won't should on you
So nowadays we're understanding, now my baby's less demanding
No hard feelings, best regards, sincerely yours, it's true
And when we start to say "you should", we stop because it's understood
Don't should on me and I won't should on you
I guess it's only human nature, **** sapien nomenclature
Minding everybody else's business but your own
With "you should this" and "you should that", you know what I've been getting at
Sometime we should leave well enough alone
This song is almost over, I'm amazed that I got through it
I know it was a shouldy job, but someone had to do it
We should all know better than to tell each other what to do
Don't should on me and I won't should on you
Don't should on me and I won't should on you
http://www.lyricsmania.com/dont_shou...avid_roth.html
Why in the world does the road owner, the government, tolerate this refuse? They are breaking the law. In almost any jurisdiction, they are breaking the law.
Which natural law of theft or violence are these people breaking? If not natural law and simply state edict... why should this law be of any more libertarian significance than "no texting while driving"?
Neither is being a drug addict or a public drunk... but are we seeking to criminalize vice?Being a BUM is not socially acceptable behavior.
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
Step 1: Read question
Step 2: Answer question with another question
Step 3: Masturbate?
I am the spoon.
can agree that playing harmonica is a service?
what makes it a legitimate service?
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
I am the spoon.
The road closest to me was paid for by a variety of taxes , since I pd the most taxes , I claim the road .
Do something Danke
depends on how you count your cards I suppose
you might say paying the taxes is an admission of your subservience and chattel state relative to your authoritarian cult of violent neighbours
an expression of more than just tacit consent to mere permitted/entitled use of the road
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
When my mom complained about my dad's driving, he used to say he paid taxes on both sides of the road.
Just a particularly elaborate scam, as far as I can tell.
Indeed, they are morally several steps higher than the thieves of the state and the dole.The beggar at least doesn't employ force of arms to extract his lucre.
You know what, presence and Ender, you can tell a lot about a person by who they respect, defend, and care about.
You guys feel that way for the man-shaped detritus you find lying all over the pavement.
I, in contrast, have more sympathy for the productive working people they harass and pickpocket.
To each his own.
And presence, thank you for your condescending cut-and-paste poem. I generally agree with it. By stating that one shouldn't fill one's house with cats, I was merely stating the obvious, a thing everyone already knows and agrees with, for the purpose of demonstrating a point via parallelism. I don't go around advising cat ladies to change their ways.
I've always been good to you, presence. Polite. Helpful. Now you won't even answer a simple question I've asked you twice. And you're going to try to make me out as if I'm any more censorious than you or any other human? Just because I guess you love and admire beggars and cat ladies, and I (decidedly) do not? Come on, presence.
I love anyone who derives their sustenance from human action rather than government action.Just because I guess you love and admire beggars and cat ladies, and I (decidedly) do not? Come on, presence.
I don't care what service or product they provide... no matter how trivial or libertine.
As long as they have a willing buyer found without coercion:
I support them all from the wealthiest HFT traders to the lowliest beggar.
The last time I gave money to a beggar I gave 10 dollars in exchange for a quick mechanical repair on my car that I couldn't make due to injury.
I was very thankful for a willing unlicensed "mechanic" hard up for some cash...
even though he was a cardboard holding, smelly, sidewalk squatting beggar; I surely saved myself a $150 tow.
He stands there unemployed and desperate...Tell me, what does the beggar do to earn his bread?
often very willing to jump however high it takes to get a few dollars out of your hands.
The very important thing a beggar does is ASK,
I'll give you NOTHING for SOMETHING is an offer. Its up to you to deny, accept, or improve the terms.
This places the beggar in a far higher class of individual than anyone with a government job.
Government workers don't ask, they take and stick you with the unsought bill.
Last edited by presence; 10-29-2016 at 08:50 PM.
'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988
Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation
'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3
Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...
I just hate government. If no ones rights or property is being violated, then...whatever.
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
Here, have a dollar
In fact, no brotherman here, have two
Two dollars means a snack for me
But it means a big deal to you
Be strong, serve God only
Know that if you do, beautiful heaven awaits
That's the poem I wrote for the first time
I saw a man with no clothes, no money, no plate
Mr. Wendal, that's his name
No one ever knew his name cause he's a no-one
Never thought twice about spending on a ol' bum
Until I had the chance to really get to know one
Now that I know him, to give him money isn't charity
He gives me some knowledge, I buy him some shoes
And to think blacks spend all that money on big colleges
Still most of y'all come out confused
Go ahead, Mr. Wendal
Mr. Wendal has freedom
A free that you and I think is dumb
Free to be without the worries of a quick to diss society
For Mr. Wendal's a bum
His only worries are sickness
And an occasional harassment by the police and their chase
Uncivilized we call him
But I just saw him eat off the food we waste
Civilization, are we really civilized, yes or no
Who are we to judge
When thousands of innocent men could be brutally enslaved
And killed over a racist grudge
Mr. Wendal has tried to warn us about our ways
But we don't hear him talk
Is it his fault when we've gone too far
And we got too far, cause on him we walk
Mr. Wendal, a man, a human in flesh
But not by law
I feed you dignity to stand with pride
Realize that all in all you stand tall
Go ahead, Mr. Wendal
Mr. Wendal, yeah
Lord, Mr. Wendal
-Arrested Development
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
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