Should panhandlers be required to have permits? (not The Onion)

[helmuth_hubener]

LOL- you start the fight and then you call the names- then you say I'm Jesus, then you complain.

There's no fight, Ender. There never was. There never will be, because you're unreachable.

You simply are refusing to listen to me. That's cool -- no loss! You already know everything, and I know nothing, and so it's a win-win! Just don't put on a Mr. Nice Guy act any more. Deal?

Or you could just answer my simple, sincere-as-all-get-out question of what specific accusation(s?) I made at you which are false. I then can correct my mistake.

[Ender]

There's no fight, Ender. There never was. There never will be, because you're unreachable.

You simply are refusing to listen to me. That's cool -- no loss! You already know everything, and I know nothing, and so it's a win-win! Just don't put on a Mr. Nice Guy act any more. Deal?

Or you could just answer my simple, sincere-as-all-get-out question of what specific accusation(s?) I made at you which are false. I then can correct my mistake.

Why don't we just forget it and make today a starting date of friendly discussion?

Life is too crazy to cling to negatives- and I have absolutely NO angst toward you.

[helmuth_hubener]

Why don't we just forget it and make today a starting date of friendly discussion?

Life is too crazy to cling to negatives- and I have absolutely NO angst toward you.

So it seems you are not going to answer my question. Ahh well, ce est la vie.

I appreciate that you have no angst towards me. Thanks. And I appreciate that you believe in listening, at least in theory. So let me lay out my position, once more, for your listening pleasure -- a position that I believe you have utterly mischaracterized in a highly uncharitable way:

1. There are many pan-handlers who are scammers. These are bad people doing a bad activity. That's what "scam" means. It's wrong. It's exploitation, and what's more it's dark, cynical exploitation of some of the highest human sentiments and sympathies. I do not support these people.

2. There are some other pan-handlers (I don't know how many) who are messed-up, drugged-up, and torn-up. They've ruined their lives. They're so hopelessly messed up, crazy, and downright dangerous even the homeless shelters won't take them. These people, I have some sympathy for. Probably you have a lot more than me, but I can muster some marginal amount, depending on the day. Unfortunately, I am also hard-nosed and realistic and so despite my sympathy for them, I believe that giving them handouts will do absolutely nothing to help them, and probably in fact be counter-productive. It will definitely be counter-productive to society as a whole, big picture (this is the point I repeatedly made before: you get what you pay for.) But even for them personally, on a person level, it will be a harm, not a help. That is what I believe. I have very rational, hard-nosed reasons to believe it. Furthermore, I believe in giving value for value. I don't want to put my hard-earned value in exchange for non-value, or even anti-value. I have only one life. I will put it towards the promotion and furtherment of things I value, not waste it on the many, many, many things I don't.

3. To the original scope of the thread: it is insane, absolutely insane, to give people a license to pan-handle on your street or sidewalk. I mean, who would do that? The people who are going to be together enough to go get the permit, by the way, are almost certainly going to be overwhelmingly in Category #1: The Scammers. But both categories are a nuisance and a blight upon your property. Would Krogers sell permits to people to run through the aisles throwing buckets of trash onto their customers? Would you sell permits to people to come into your home and harass your children? The presence of panhandlers is a bad, not a good. No orchard owner is going to sell permits to come introduce wood beetles into his trees. This also is a blight. If roads were private, as they should be, no one would intentionally destroy the value of his property in this way. Just insanity. In other words: just a typical day in the life of a government Idea Man.

[helmuth_hubener]

I just know that for ME, I am blessed when I give.

Of course you feel good when you give! I don't contest that at all. I know that. Me too. We all do. It's biological. We are deeply empathetic creatures. It's in our spirits and it's in our mirror-neurons.

But would you still feel just as good if you gave to the person and then as soon as the cash was in his hand he immediately laughed and shouted "Sucker!" in your face? And then he drove off in his $50,000 Hummer? Would you still feel as good, that is, if you knew he was a scammer?

Seriously, would you?

[oyarde]

Trump could provide employment for the panhandlers through his new public works projects .

[helmuth_hubener]

But could the panhandlers provide employment for him?

[Ender]

Of course you feel good when you give! I don't contest that at all. I know that. Me too. We all do. It's biological. We are deeply empathetic creatures. It's in our spirits and it's in our mirror-neurons.

But would you still feel just as good if you gave to the person and then as soon as the cash was in his hand he immediately laughed and shouted "Sucker!" in your face? And then he drove off in his $50,000 Hummer? Would you still feel as good, that is, if you knew he was a scammer?

Seriously, would you?

YES.

As a Minister, I have vowed to help the needy- some say "what if they buy drugs or booze or...." but I have decided that is not my business. My business is to help where I can, then I can face my Savior as an honest and giving man. What others do with what is given to them will be between them and Him.

[helmuth_hubener]

YES.

Thank you!! Thank you for giving me one (1) actual answer to a question. Actually interacting with my actual words.

It can be done!

Thanks.

[helmuth_hubener]

Of course you feel good when you give! I don't contest that at all. I know that. Me too. We all do. It's biological. We are deeply empathetic creatures. It's in our spirits and it's in our mirror-neurons.

But would you still feel just as good if you gave to the person and then as soon as the cash was in his hand he immediately laughed and shouted "Sucker!" in your face? And then he drove off in his $50,000 Hummer? Would you still feel as good, that is, if you knew he was a scammer?

Seriously, would you?

YES.

As a Minister, I have vowed to help the needy- some say "what if they buy drugs or booze or...." but I have decided that is not my business. My business is to help where I can, then I can face my Savior as an honest and giving man. What others do with what is given to them will be between them and Him.

First off, Ender, don't take this personally, because I already know you are not interested in what I have to say and will not find this post enlightening nor helpful in the least. I am not talking to you. I am talking generically and just using some of the statements made in your post as inspiration, as a jumping-off point, for some thoughts which are my own.

OK? Are we cool with this? OK. Please don't take any offense, and feel free to ignore this post entirely. In fact, please do.

Let me quote what I think is a relevant scripture on this matter:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

-- James 2:14-17

This speaks to me in the following way: it is saying Results Matter. It is our business what the consequences are. If the consequences of empty words and well-wishes (Online candlelight vigils? Lighting up public buildings? Raising "Awareness"? Holding the Right Opinions?) are, well, nothing, then there is no virtue in them. "May you be warmed and filled." And yet no warming nor filling takes place. Therefore: lame. Lazy. Dead.

The warning applies not just to empty words without actions, but just as aptly to counter-productive actions.

It is intellectually, spiritually, and charitably lazy to allow yourself to indulge in feeling good without caring about the consequences of your actions. Lazy, lazy, lazy in the extreme this is. It's just indulging yourself. If you can't bring yourself to do the hard, challenging, very difficult task of actually caring and thinking and tracking down and making sure that what you are doing is truly making the world better, and doing so powerfully and for the long term, then you are a spiritual dilettante. You have no real interest in helping, because your interest is about two inches deep, it's shallow, shallow, shallow; you do not care what actually is going to happen to the bum you shove money into. There's no depth to it. There's no sincerity to it. It's just endorphin release. You do not care about the statistical and practical and, yes, sometimes cynical realities.

Not your business, after all.

None of your business.

[Ender]

Matthew 25: 34-46

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[helmuth_hubener]

Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Sounds great, Ender! I'm just saying that maybe it matters what, exactly, it is that you're "doing unto" these people.

In fact, no maybe: I'm saying that it does. It does matter, and it is our business.

You can't just, like, do whatever you want; whatever "makes you feel good." Then you're "doing unto" them in a very different sense!

I would also propose that the ability to make a good living hanging out at intersections with cardboard sign is not what these people need. Giving them that is not helping them. Handing money to them is not helping them. It is hurting. Like so many things, it seems to be kind. It seems to be loving. But it's not.

[Ender]

Sounds great, Ender! I'm just saying that maybe it matters what, exactly, it is that you're "doing unto" these people.

In fact, no maybe: I'm saying that it does. It does matter, and it is our business.

You can't just, like, do whatever you want; whatever "makes you feel good." Then you're "doing unto" them in a very different sense!

I would also propose that the ability to make a good living hanging out at intersections with cardboard sign is not what these people need. Giving them that is not helping them. Handing money to them is not helping them. It is hurting. Like so many things, it seems to be kind. It seems to be loving. But it's not.

Tell that to Jesus when you see him.

Again:

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

[undergroundrr]

Judge not that ye be not judged, oh Divine and Holy One. Right? We would never, ever judge people and make mean-spirited and unfair accusations, right? That's not the Ender way! Or is it, now?

LOL. I've finally pinned it down. You sound like the Help Help I'm Being Repressed guy from Holy Grail.

[helmuth_hubener]

Tell that to Jesus when you see him.

That's exactly the point! You want to tell Jesus "I was an enabler. Because of me you died of a drug overdose in the motel a block away from your overpass hangout. I didn't care. It wasn't my business."? Hmm?

Results matter!

Reality matter!

Your Good Feelz: Not So Much!

[Ender]

That's exactly the point! You want to tell Jesus "I was an enabler. Because of me you died of a drug overdose in the motel a block away from your overpass hangout. I didn't care. It wasn't my business."? Hmm?

Results matter!

Reality matter!

Your Good Feelz: Not So Much!

How much of "JUDGE NOT" do you not understand? YOU are to help people the best you can- whether they accept it is not your call.

[helmuth_hubener]

How much of "JUDGE NOT" do you not understand? YOU are to help people the best you can- whether they accept it is not your call.

Part of "as best you can" is using the brain God gave you to not do incredibly corrosive, destructive things like giving cash to beggars.

Anyway, I've made my point ten times over. You have, as expected, not appreciated it, not found any truth in it, and indeed have almost certainly not understood it. If you did, you gave no indication. Anyway, no big deal. You should have just ignored my post like I said.

I just had read those verses many times recently and had a reasonably interesting and unique thought about them and wanted to share. Not with you, but with anyone who might find the thoughts interesting or valuable.

I likewise have not yet given any indication that I understood your point, so let me say: you are saying that just because the seed falls in stony ground, doesn't mean it wasn't worth casting the seed. We are just His simple servants and only mortals. Our job is to just cast the seed, to try our best and follow Christ's example and counsel of loving generosity, then the harvest is in the Lord's Hands.

[Origanalist]

What Ender-Jesus Wants for Us?

Is that Seattle?

[Origanalist]

I never give em squat, and frequently roll down my window and yell 'SUCKER!!!!' at those that do.

[Origanalist]

There, but for the grace of God, go most of us.

I always give to beggars- it is good for me to give as well as them to receive.

I never give to them, if people stopped giving them free money maybe they would do something with themselves. As long as the bleeding hearts keep enabling them, why should they bother? This is a huge industry around here with the professional bums real aggressive about defending their ownership of the choice spots.

[Dr.3D]

Yeah, was in a large town in Mexico where I watched a woman with a grubby little kid, begging on the corner. Later, when it got dark, I saw a man in a newer car stop and pick them up.

Next day he dropped them off again at the same place.

Guess the grubby little kid was part of the show. Was tempted to tell her to get a job, but then thought, she already has one.

[Ender]

It is my sincere prayer that none of you ever fall into such circumstances.

Are a few shysters? Sure- but most are not. I have worked with the homeless for sometime now- many are jobless because of .gov.

One guy could not get a job because he "almost" stole something once. He was going through some very hard times, was in depression/anxiety. He wasn't even arrested- just ticketed and he showed up in court, paid off his fine & now has this on his record forever. He has been trying to have his record cleared but the courts won't do it for until he has another 3 years of a clean record (It's been about 10 years already). So no income, no job, and back in depression.

[Origanalist]

It is my sincere prayer that none of you ever fall into such circumstances.

Are a few shysters? Sure- but most are not. I have worked with the homeless for sometime now- many are jobless because of .gov.

One guy could not get a job because he "almost" stole something once. He was going through some very hard times, was in depression/anxiety. He wasn't even arrested- just ticketed and he showed up in court, paid off his fine & now has this on his record forever. He has been trying to have his record cleared but the courts won't do it for until he has another 3 years of a clean record (It's been about 10 years already). So no income, no job, and back in depression.

Well, that's nice, but I haven't had a job where something like that would affect my employment, ever. Maybe he should look elsewhere to make an income?

[Ender]

Well, that's nice, but I haven't had a job where something like that would affect my employment, ever. Maybe he should look elsewhere to make an income?

Can't even work at WalMart.

[Origanalist]

Can't even work at WalMart.

That just leaves the rest of the world. Why would anyone want to work at Walmart anyway?

Quit making excuses for the guy.

[Ender]

That just leaves the rest of the world. Why would anyone want to work at Walmart anyway?

Quit making excuses for the guy.

So, you've never been desperate? Depressed? Suicidal?

I'm a Minister Under a Vow of Poverty; I work with a lot of people who have lost all hope and who think they are absolutely worthless. My life is dedicated to helping those who have been destroyed by things or people around them, unjust laws that make no sense, and sometimes themselves.

If you have never been there, I wish you the best and hope that you never will; in the meantime I will continue to help those who are so desperately in need- whether physically, spiritually, or emotionally.

Sometimes one kind word or act can save a life.

[Origanalist]

So, you've never been desperate?

Absolutely, I won't bore the forum with my tales of woe but having some background on my record seems rather tame.

Depressed?

Of course. I think, I feel and am human.

Suicidal?

Never, even in the worst of times. This world isn't getting rid of me that easily.

Sometimes one kind word or act can save a life.

I'm all for one kind word or act, but continually making excuses for people who should be getting off their ass and on with their life isn't helping anyone.

[helmuth_hubener]

isn't helping anyone.

Isn't.

Helping.

Anyone.

To quote Johnny Cochran:

If it doesn't assist, you must not persist!

[Origanalist]

Isn't.

Helping.

Anyone.

To quote Johnny Cochran:

If it doesn't assist, you must not persist!

Just about blew my coffee all over the screen.

[Ender]

Absolutely, I won't bore the forum with my tales of woe but having some background on my record seems rather tame.



Of course. I think, I feel and am human.



Never, even in the worst of times. This world isn't getting rid of me that easily.



I'm all for one kind word or act, but continually making excuses for people who should be getting off their ass and on with their life isn't helping anyone.

You and I must both the Choleric personalities.
http://psychologia.co/four-temperaments/

The Cholerics are the "Hell, no!" personalities. leaders, survivors, etc.

I never understood depression/anxiety/suicidal tendencies until it became apparent in my own family. I began to study up and came to the realization that this is not a choice for many who are not the more defiant leader types.

I have made my own choice to help those I come in contact with that need help. Our org has helped many homeless, given them work etc., and helped them get back on their feet. I will continue to do this for as long as I am able.

As far as panhandlers go, it is your personal choice to help or not- that's up to you. For me, I'd rather have the choice to give or give not to a guy on a street corner than be forced by the state to support the welfare/medicaid/social security/irs/war/alphabets/MIC society any day.

You're one of my fav posters, Origanalist; thanks for decent dialog.

Onward & Upward

[helmuth_hubener]