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Thread: Trump's missed opportunities in final debate

  1. #1

    Trump's missed opportunities in final debate

    I couldn't sit through and listen to the entire train wreck that is the final debate. Trump has done better than the first debate (nowhere to go but up from that train wreck) but not as good as the second and not enough to win IMO. Here's the big missed opportunities I noticed.

    1) On the scandal of the women. TRUMP SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THE VIDEO OF BILL CLINTON GROPING THE STEWARDESS! Seriously that should be a 30 second attack ad by now.

    2) On foreign policy and specifically Syria. Trump said about the rebels Hillary supports that we don't know where they came from. Wrong! According to documents released by judicial watch the Pentagon knew that the emergence of something like ISIS was the inevitable result of intervention in Syria. The Times of London reported that the Libyan rebels were Iraqi Al Qaeda. From the beginning of the Syrian civil war we had reports of rebel leaders cutting out the hearts of Syrian soldiers and eating them. Chris Wallace tossed Trump a softball by pointing out that a no fly zone could mean war with Russia. Trump should have seized on that instead of just talking about the dangers of Syrian refugees. Also Trump should take the opportunity to clear up what he said prior to the Iraq war that sounds a lot like supporting it. He should have said, and should say "I made a non committal answer of 'I guess so' when it became clear that we were going to war regardless because I didn't want to sound like I was against the troops. But I did not give the full throated cheerleading support that Hillary Clinton gave."

    3) On whether or not he would concede the election TRUMP SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED GORE 2000 AND THE ELECTION THAT WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT! Seriously I don't know why nobody else seems to remember that.

    The rest of it, that I could stomach, wasn't to bad from Trump's perspective. Hillary lies so freaking much it's hard to keep track of it.
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    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    Hillary backers claim she won. If Hillary wins good bye world.

  4. #3
    Hillary lies so much, and the people watching have no idea, therefore she won with lies.

  5. #4

  6. #5
    I could go to bed happy if he had simply walked across the stage and urinated on her leg.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by The One View Post
    I could go to bed happy if he had simply walked across the stage and urinated on her leg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
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    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by The One View Post
    I could go to bed happy if he had simply walked across the stage and urinated on her leg.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    I'll take Jack Lemon for president any day.
    There is no spoon.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by The One View Post
    I could go to bed happy if he had simply walked across the stage and urinated on her leg.
    That's a terrible thing to say about one of our leaders.
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I couldn't sit through and listen to the entire train wreck that is the final debate. Trump has done better than the first debate (nowhere to go but up from that train wreck) but not as good as the second and not enough to win IMO. Here's the big missed opportunities I noticed.
    I didn't watch the last debate, but the preliminary bottom line feedback I hear is that (like the first debate) Trump didn't gaffe and held his own, which at this point is all that is needed for him to win. The modern Presidential 'debate' is mostly a joint press interview with tightly limited interaction between the candidates. It amounts mainly to being a national job interview, or audition before the American people, where "winning" means satisfying the average viewer that you can do the job.

    Doing well on debate points is merely secondary---which is why the Clinton Inc media concentrated on talking up Hillary 'winning' the first one based on the latter, while most immediate polling after showed people thought Trump won (i.e., was Presidential and capable of doing the job). Winning the media's after-debate spin war is more important in this regard, than the debate points during the event. The Trump staff should push back the MSM's attempt to again swerve things to a "Hillary's the better wonk, so she won" narrative in the coming days.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    I didn't watch the last debate, but the preliminary bottom line feedback I hear is that (like the first debate) Trump didn't gaffe and held his own, which at this point is all that is needed for him to win. The modern Presidential 'debate' is mostly a joint press interview with tightly limited interaction between the candidates. It amounts mainly to being a national job interview, or audition before the American people, where "winning" means satisfying the average viewer that you can do the job.

    Doing well on debate points is merely secondary---which is why the Clinton Inc media concentrated on talking up Hillary 'winning' the first one based on the latter, while most immediate polling after showed people thought Trump won (i.e., was Presidential and capable of doing the job). Winning the media's after-debate spin war is more important in this regard, than the debate points during the event. The Trump staff should push back the MSM's attempt to again swerve things to a "Hillary's the better wonk, so she won" narrative in the coming days.
    He had to do a lot more than that. He is behind, he had to thoroughly expose Hillary's corruption, and he didn't do that because he doesn't have command of the facts. He lost the election tonight unless there's a major October surprise, or Hillary's supporters are just so convinced it's in the bag that they don't even bother to vote.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    3) On whether or not he would concede the election TRUMP SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED GORE 2000 AND THE ELECTION THAT WENT ALL THE WAY TO THE SUPREME COURT! Seriously I don't know why nobody else seems to remember that.
    Yep, that and mentioning the first GOP debate with essentially the same gotcha question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The whole question was a set-up, just like it was at the first GOP debate. Trump could have answered by pointing out the GOP candidates who went back on that (Bush, Rubio, etc). Finally, he should have said "as so many leaks and investigative reports have shown, this is about much more than just the vote. This is about collusion and corruption of the election process at many levels. Of course I will accept the results of a fair election, but if there is evidence of voter fraud, we will seek the truth."
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    He had to do a lot more than that. He is behind, he had to thoroughly expose Hillary's corruption, and he didn't do that because he doesn't have command of the facts. He lost the election tonight unless there's a major October surprise, or Hillary's supporters are just so convinced it's in the bag that they don't even bother to vote.
    Or its rigged.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    Or its rigged.
    Rigged for Trump? Fat chance. Like the man said, Dems have been busing people in for 50 years, and they're not gonna stop now.

  17. #15
    He ought to have challenged her claim that the Clinton Foundation did a good job in Haiti. He also ought to have mentioned, while she was hammering about Russia/Putin, that she's the one who sold out 20% of US uranium to a Russian company in exchange for a huge donation to the Clinton Foundation.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    WTH?
    .

    +rep for HB.
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  20. #17
    A competent candidate could tie Hillary Clinton's 'superpredator' and Benghazi testimony remarks into a singular line of attack.

    How could this be accomplished?

    'Just as in a previous generation we had an organized effort against the mob. We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels, they are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called superpredators — no conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first, we have to bring them to heel.'

    Hillary Clinton, 1996

    'Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that they’d they go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make? ... But you know, to be clear, it is, from my perspective, less important today looking backwards as to why these militants decided they did it than to find them and bring them to justice, and then maybe we’ll figure out what was going on in the meantime.'

    Hillary Clinton, 2013

    The common thread in both statements can be found in the preference for action over a measured response, based off understanding of what led to those situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
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  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    He had to do a lot more than that. He is behind, he had to thoroughly expose Hillary's corruption, and he didn't do that because he doesn't have command of the facts. He lost the election tonight unless there's a major October surprise, or Hillary's supporters are just so convinced it's in the bag that they don't even bother to vote.
    IOW, you've bought the MSM's narrative that he is behind, rhetoric designed to suppress Trump turnout (it is actually MOE tied in most key states, despite the oversampling of Democrats still going on in polls). The turnout models still point to Trump winning the popular vote by 5 million on up, and those models are based on more definite data (actual voting behavior this year established in the primaries and current registration trends by millions of voters, instead of poll projections based on samples of thousands):

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com...media-polling/
    Last edited by Peace&Freedom; 10-20-2016 at 05:43 AM.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
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  22. #19
    Trump is nothing but a missed opportunity. Of all the clowns on the stage during the Republican nomination process, we had to get stuck with the one who can't even take a pie to the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sister Miriam Godwinson View Post
    We Must Dissent.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    Hillary lies so much, and the people watching have no idea, therefore she won with lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by misterx View Post
    ... he had to thoroughly expose Hillary's corruption, and he didn't do that because he doesn't have command of the facts. He lost the election tonight unless there's a major October surprise, or Hillary's supporters are just so convinced it's in the bag that they don't even bother to vote.
    I agree. So many of Hillary's lies and examples of her corruption remain unknown to the average MSM viewer. It is, therefore, incumbent upon Trump to bring them to the fore.

    I don't know whether he doesn't do his homework, or is just incapable of processing the wealth of information and facts available to him.
    In all three debates, the missed opportunities are legion. And these are opportunities which any competent debater would know were coming and be prepared for.

    Further, even when he manages to work something in, it is often either poorly placed, poorly expressed or poorly defended. As an example, when Hillary defaults to the "Russian argument" to dismiss WikiLeaks, Trump could easily counter with a statement that he doesn't care if the leaks came from the man in the moon and drive home that it's their content, and not their source, which deserve focus and attention.

    The bottom line is that Trump is a poor debater.
    Last edited by rprprs; 10-20-2016 at 07:59 AM.
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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    IOW, you've bought the MSM's narrative that he is behind, rhetoric designed to suppress Trump turnout (it is actually MOE tied in most key states, despite the oversampling of Democrats still going on in polls). The turnout models still point to Trump winning the popular vote by 5 million on up, and those models are based on more definite data (actual voting behavior this year established in the primaries and current registration trends by millions of voters, instead of poll projections based on samples of thousands):

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com...media-polling/
    When Trump is behind by the MOE in every poll, then it's not an error. I think the media's narrative is more likely to suppress Hillary turnout. Trump voters know Hillary has to be defeated, so they are going to vote no matter what. Hillary supporters won't see any urgency in voting if they know she's already won. I think it's going to be closer than most people believe, but make no mistake, it's an uphill battle. Even if Trump gets the favorable turnout he needs to hold FL, NC, and OH, he still needs a major shift in support in CO, PA, or WI. Something is going to have to happen between now and election day to make some of those Hillary and Johnson voters in those states switch to Trump. The only thing I see happening is the MSM hammering Trump every day. Now, if Trump loses Utah, which is up for grabs now, things get much uglier.

  25. #22
    He is a terrible debater. His ego takes over and he can't stop himself from going off on petty he said she said tangents. She may come off as rehearsed but he comes off as reactionary.

  26. #23

    Trump Unchained

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/19/trump-unchained/

    OCTOBER 19, 2016



    “For any minimally conscious American citizen, it is absolutely evident that Donald Trump is not only facing the mammoth Clinton political machine, but, also the combined forces of the viciously dishonest Mainstream Media.”

    -Boyd D. Cathey, “The Tape, the Conspiracy, and the Death of the Old Politics”, Unz Review

    “The election is absolutely being rigged by the dishonest and distorted media pushing Crooked Hillary.”

    -Donald Trump, Twitter

    When was the last time the media threw 100% of its support behind one party’s presidential candidate? What does that say about the media?

    Do you feel comfortable with the idea that a handful of TV and print-news executives are inserting themselves into the process and choosing our leaders for us? Is that the way democracy is supposed to work?

    Check out this blurb from The Hill:

    “The broadcast evening news programs ABC, NBC and CBS covered allegations against Trump by several women who claim he sexually assaulted them for more than 23 minutes on Thursday night. But revelations in the WikiLeaks dump of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta which included…sympathy for Wall Street, advocation for open borders and blatant examples of media collusion ….got a whole 1 minute and 7 seconds combined.”

    Ratio of negative coverage of Trump to Clinton: 23:1

    In print on Thursday, it was no better. The New York Times had 11 negative stories on Trump…But zero on Clinton/WikiLeaks.

    Ratio: 11:0.” (Media and Trump bias; Not even trying to hide it anymore, The Hill)

    The article in The Hill also refers to a survey by the Washington Post and ABC News that asks participants six questions about allegations of sexual misconduct by Trump, but zero questions about Podesta’s incriminating emails.

    Is that what you call “balance”?

    I should state out-front, that I don’t plan to vote for either candidate, Trump or Clinton, so my claims of “bias” are not grounded in support for one candidate or the other. I am simply ticked-off by the fact that the media honchos have pulled out all the stops and are inserting themselves in the process to produce the outcome they want.

    That’s what you call “rigging” an election. When you turn on Washington Week (Gwen Ifil) on public TV and see an assembled panel of six pundits–three conservatives and three liberals–and all six turn out to love Hillary and hate Trump; you can be reasonably certain that the election is rigged, because that’s what rigging is. Rather than providing background information about the candidate’s position on the issues so voters can make an informed decision, the media uses opinionmakers to heap praise on one candidate while savagely denigrating the other. The obvious goal is to shape public opinion in the way that best suits the interests of the people who own the media and who belong to the establishment of rich and powerful elites who run the country, the 1 percent. In this case, the ruling class unanimously backs Hillary Clinton, that much is obvious.

    Fortunately, the tide is turning on the mainstream media as people look to other, more reliable sources for their information. It should come as no surprise that people are more distrustful of media than ever before and that that a great many feel that the media is conducting a brutal class war against ordinary working people. Surely, anyone who has followed economic developments at all in the last seven years, knows that the policies of the Fed have created a yawning chasm between rich and poor that is only getting worse as long as the levers of power stay in the hands of establishment politicians. Hillary Clinton is certainly the worst of these establishment politicos. Aside from being the most widely-reviled candidate the Democrats have ever nominated, she is the embodiment of political corruption and cronyism. How is it, you may ask, that someone like Clinton was able to nab “upwards of $225,000 per speech” from Goldman Sachs if she wasn’t influence peddling?

    Does it really matter what she said in these speeches?

    Not to me. The huge sums of money prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Clinton is selling access, tacitly agreeing to “go easy” on the big Wall Street investment banks provided they keep her foundation’s coffers overflowing. What other possible explanation could there be?

    Do as many Americans know about Hillary’s sordid dealings with Wall Street as know about Trump’s “alleged” sexual dalliances?

    Of course not. It’s not even close.

    Do they know that Clinton was the driving force behind the intervention in Libya and Syria, where hundreds of thousands of civilians have died and seven million have been internally displaced? Do they know she was involved in the toppling of a democratically-elected government in Honduras or that a number of prominent neocons, who dragged the US into war in Iraq based on WMD lies, now support her?

    Nope.

    Do people know that Hillary had proof that ISIS –America’s arch enemy– was being funded and supported by our allies, Saudi Arabia and Qatar and, yet, she never reported the news to the American people??

    Here’s a damning clip from one of the Podesta emails:

    “We need to use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing clandestine financial and logistic support to Isis and other radical groups in the region.”

    Remember when George W. Bush said that ‘We will treat the terrorists and the people who support the terrorists the same”?

    Hillary must not have gotten that memo or we would have bombed Riyadh by now.

    Do people know that there has never been a war that Hillary didn’t support, a job-killing “free trade” bill she didn’t back, or a civil liberties-eviscerating piece of legislation (Clinton voted for the original USA PATRIOT Act in 2001, as well as the revised version in 2006.) she wasn’t eager to sign?

    Oh, but she does support “women’s reproductive rights” which makes her a big champion of personal freedom among her narrow demographic of successful, educated, white women. Excuse me, for not doing handstands.

    Here’s another short clip from the WSWS:

    “Hillary and Bill Clinton have accumulated a total of $153 million in speaking fees since Bill Clinton left the White House. Only the very naïve could believe that these vast sums were paid for the speeches themselves. They were payment for services rendered to the American financial aristocracy over a protracted period.” (In secret Goldman Sachs speeches, Clinton explains why the rich should rule, World socialist Web Site)
    Get the picture? Hillary Clinton isn’t a candidate, she’s a franchise, a walking ATM machine. And her shady Foundation is nothing more than a vast recycling bin for illicit funds that pour into the political sausage-making machine in the form of contributions and magically transform themselves into special favors for the billionaire class.

    Is the system rigged?

    You’re damn right it is! Check this out from Zero Hedge under the heading of “73% Of Republicans Say Election Could Be “Stolen” As Trump Slams “Rigged Elections”:

    “A Politico/Morning Consult Poll found that 41% of registered voters say that the election cold be stolen from Trump while 73% of Republicans fear the same.

    The American electorate has turned deeply skeptical about the integrity of the nation’s election apparatus, with 41 percent of voters saying November’s election could be “stolen” from Donald Trump due to widespread voter fraud.

    The new POLITICO/Morning Consult poll — conducted among 1,999 registered voters Oct. 13 through Oct. 15 — shows that Trump’s repeated warnings about a “rigged” election are having effect: 73 percent of Republicans think the election could be swiped from him. Just 17 percent of Democrats agree with the prospect of massive fraud at the ballot box.” (Zero Hedge)

    Should we be worried about the election being rigged? Should we be concerned that a significant number of Americans no longer trust the “integrity of the electoral process”?

    And how are these allegations (that the election was stolen) going to impact Hillary’s ability to govern?

    It’s going to impact it dramatically, in fact, it could stop her dead in her tracks. It could even precipitate a Constitutional crisis. And that’s where all this is headed, isn’t it?

    Consider this: Maybe Trump isn’t really trying to win any more. Maybe he knows he can’t overcome a 12 point deficit this late in the game, so he’s going to pull a Samson. He’s going to shake the pillars and bring the whole rotten temple crashing down around him. He’s going use all his influence to discredit this fake democratic system the elites have painstakingly put together to control the public, he’s going to grow his throng of angry supporters into a small army, and he’s going to spearhead a (mainly) right wing populist movement that is going impose gridlock on Washington, deepen the political divisions, acrimony and polarization across the country, and make Clinton’s tenure as president a living hell.

    That’s the gameplan. He’s going to marshal enough grassroots support that Clinton will spend her entire four years bogged down in endless investigations, fending off charges of criminal misconduct, and leap-frogging from one seedy scandal to the next.

    No, Trump isn’t planning on winning. He doesn’t want to be president. He wants to be a modern-day Braveheart leading the peasants into battle against a thoroughly-corrupt and heinous ruling class establishment. That’s what he wants, and that’s why political has-beens like Gingrich and Giuliani have attached themselves to him like the plague. They see an opening for resurrecting their own dismal careers.

    In any event, Hillary’s going to win the election, that’s for sure. But don’t count Trump out just yet. He’s just getting warmed up.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlybee View Post
    He is a terrible debater. His ego takes over and he can't stop himself from going off on petty he said she said tangents. She may come off as rehearsed but he comes off as reactionary.
    Trump was smooth as silk for about 30 minutes and then got lured into snarky banter.



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  29. #25
    Trump's biggest missed opportunity in my opinion (handed to him on a silver platter and blew it completely):

    When they asked if he would be a good little citizen and respect the time honored principle within our "democracy" for a smooth transition of government and "accept the election results." He should have said that the sadly the situation has now changed with the level of corruption and gone off for a good minute on the bullet points replete with Wiki dumps, FBI emails, and the rest. Alex Jones talking points would have been perfect here. He could have caused a media buzz regarding corruption all the way until election day. Now, however, he will continue to be lambasted for being a horrific American for challenging our great democratic institutions and traditions.
    Last edited by anaconda; 10-20-2016 at 06:20 PM.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Trump was smooth as silk for about 30 minutes and then got lured into snarky banter.
    He allowed himself to get lured..he can't seem to help himself.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Trump's biggest missed opportunity in my opinion (handed to him on a silver platter and blew it completely):

    When they asked if he would be a good little citizen and respect the time honored principle within our "democracy" for a smooth transition of government and "accept the election results." He should have said that the sadly the situation has now changed with the level of corruption and gone off for a good minute on the bullet points replete with Wiki dumps, FBI emails, and the rest. Alex Jones talking points would have been perfect here. He could have caused a media buzz regarding corruption all the way until election day. Now, however, he will continue to be lambasted for being a horrific American for challenging our great democratic institutions and traditions.
    I was watching the NBC stream, and I swear the "He won't support the winner! We just witnessed political suicide! He's UnAmerican!!" narrative took off from the moment Chris Wallace said "the end"

    it was amazing, really. Five, six, seven different talking heads jumped on it as if they had a script in hand.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    I was watching the NBC stream, and I swear the "He won't support the winner! We just witnessed political suicide! He's UnAmerican!!" narrative took off from the moment Chris Wallace said "the end"

    it was amazing, really. Five, six, seven different talking heads jumped on it as if they had a script in hand.
    That question was likely the trap question the FOXheads had in mind to marginalize Trump with, similar to the GOP loyalty oath question posed in the FOX primary debate in August 2015. Chris Wallace (a Democrat and closet Hillary supporter) had to appear more reasonable than the previous moderators to fool please the FOX viewers, so he had to go passive-aggressive. Play fair on most questions, raise the email and Clinton Foundation issues, while knowing the "unconditionally accept the results of the election" pledge question would dominate the coverage afterwards.

    Note Hillary was not asked the question, despite her complaints about Putin trying to rig the election--but she got to "respond" to Trump by waxing indignant about his answer, thereby posturing the statesman. As always, the point was to keep him on the defensive, and the focus off her.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    That question was likely the trap question the FOXheads had in mind to marginalize Trump with, similar to the GOP loyalty oath question posed in the FOX primary debate in August 2015. Chris Wallace (a Democrat and closet Hillary supporter) had to appear more reasonable than the previous moderators to fool please the FOX viewers, so he had to go passive-aggressive. Play fair on most questions, raise the email and Clinton Foundation issues, while knowing the "unconditionally accept the results of the election" pledge question would dominate the coverage afterwards.

    Note Hillary was not asked the question, despite her complaints about Putin trying to rig the election--but she got to "respond" to Trump by waxing indignant about his answer, thereby posturing the statesman. As always, the point was to keep him on the defensive, and the focus off her.
    It is so simple and yet most will not comprehend what happened. +rep

  34. #30
    Trump wasn't a politician. He's new to debating. He missed some opportunities in this last debate, but not as many as he missed in the 1st one. That debate was horrible. All in all, I think he did pretty good and avoided most of the bait. Doing that apparently is very difficult for people who aren't politicians. As I recall, Ron took almost every single one of them offered him.
    ================
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