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Thread: Give unto Caesar the thing's of Caesar

  1. #1

    Give unto Caesar the things of Caesar

    Most people think that when Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar the things of Caesar," he was instructing his Judean and Galilean followers to pay the tribute to Caesar that he demanded of them as residents of those provinces.

    In a little over a month I will be presenting a paper at the annual meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society in San Antonio explaining how we can tell that Jesus' point was actually the exact opposite. He was instructing his followers NOT to pay that tribute.

    I'm still working on the paper. And it won't be something that I expect to be able to boil down to a single post here. But I'll try to present my arguments here over time, provided the mods don't ban me again before I have the chance to.
    Last edited by erowe1; 10-06-2016 at 07:57 AM.



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  3. #2
    +rep
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  4. #3
    Ya , I hate the Publicans ( todays IRS _ . The poll tax in those days was used to finance the occupying army to the best of my knowledge . So I imagine the head tax collector of poll tax ( Publican ) would have been about the most hated person of all.
    Do something Danke

  5. #4
    I can see how the argument applies to concepts more than taxes, and how it is more about rendering unto God the things that are God's while rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's was really used more as a set up to the second half than it was to answer the actual question, so yes the passage has been brutally misinterpreted and misapplied in the past, however I do not see how one can make the argument that the passage was an instruction to not pay taxes, when it seems apparent in context (and to the people who heard Him) to have said the opposite.

    No, the passage was not actually about paying taxes, but then neither was it is about not paying taxes. The passage was more about rendering unto God the things that are God's, and He seemed to be calling the tax thing a distraction, while implying that if you use Caesar's money then you are going to have to pay Caesar's tax.

    I see lots of things in the passage that a lot of modern people do not, but I do not see what you are saying is there.

  6. #5
    I think it was Chuck Baldwin from the Constitution party that had a good write up on this.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Most people think that when Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar the things of Caesar," he was instructing his Judean and Galilean followers to pay the tribute to Caesar that he demanded of them as residents of those provinces.

    In a little over a month I will be presenting a paper at the annual meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society in San Antonio explaining how we can tell that Jesus' point was actually the exact opposite. He was instructing his followers NOT to pay that tribute.

    I'm still working on the paper. And it won't be something that I expect to be able to boil down to a single post here. But I'll try to present my arguments here over time, provided the mods don't ban me again before I have the chance to.
    Exactly.

    Caesar was thought of as the god of Rome, but he, in fact, owned NOTHING. Everything belongs to God.

    Jesus was a master with words and knew how to phrase things to confuse the pharisees while still teaching Truth to His followers.
    There is no spoon.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Exactly.

    Caesar was thought of as the god of Rome, but he, in fact, owned NOTHING. Everything belongs to God.

    Jesus was a master with words and knew how to phrase things to confuse the pharisees while still teaching Truth to His followers.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ender again.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ender again.
    Covered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Covered.
    -rep
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    I think it was Chuck Baldwin from the Constitution party that had a good write up on this.
    Would not Jesus want me to be happy and keep all of my FRN's and just give 10 percent to the church/charity ? Would not Jesus approve of denying tax monies to an evil govt that will be used for unHoly things ?
    Do something Danke

  13. #11
    I think Jesus wants me to be happy .

  14. #12








    that goatee







    erowe1 when you're done you should refine your points and update the wikipedia page

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar


    if you're ever banned again I'll protest
    Last edited by presence; 10-06-2016 at 06:41 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  15. #13
    I'm learning.

    As Christians, we really don't need to be concerned with the "wealth" of this world.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I can see how the argument applies to concepts more than taxes, and how it is more about rendering unto God the things that are God's while rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's was really used more as a set up to the second half than it was to answer the actual question, so yes the passage has been brutally misinterpreted and misapplied in the past, however I do not see how one can make the argument that the passage was an instruction to not pay taxes, when it seems apparent in context (and to the people who heard Him) to have said the opposite.

    No, the passage was not actually about paying taxes, but then neither was it is about not paying taxes. The passage was more about rendering unto God the things that are God's, and He seemed to be calling the tax thing a distraction, while implying that if you use Caesar's money then you are going to have to pay Caesar's tax.

    I see lots of things in the passage that a lot of modern people do not, but I do not see what you are saying is there.
    Looking snazzy Gunny.

  17. #15
    The Pharisees were content to have a relationship with Roman power when it suited their own quest for more power. Sound familiar?
    That coin had their collaborator on it, but acknowledging that collaboration and holding up their end was somehow now an issue.
    Jesus knew their hearts and called them on it.
    There is so much Jesus-win in this encounter, and on so many levels.

    What happens when we choose a relationship with a "legal", debt-based Federal Reserve note?
    Proverbs 11:1 The LORD detests dishonest scales, but accurate weights find favor with him.
    We've seen what happens, more power struggles, and we end up crucifying more Truth. Best to avoid that, and to strive for accountable, God pleasing relationships, using honest tools.
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by bunklocoempire View Post
    The Pharisees were content to have a relationship with Roman power when it suited their own quest for more power. Sound familiar?
    That coin had their collaborator on it, but acknowledging that collaboration and holding up their end was somehow now an issue.
    Jesus knew their hearts and called them on it.
    There is so much Jesus-win in this encounter, and on so many levels.

    What happens when we choose a relationship with a "legal", debt-based Federal Reserve note?
    Proverbs 11:1 The LORD detests dishonest scales, but accurate weights find favor with him.
    We've seen what happens, more power struggles, and we end up crucifying more Truth. Best to avoid that, and to strive for accountable, God pleasing relationships, using honest tools.
    +rep
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  20. #17
    My take is that over-taxation was a big issue - just like today.

    The controversy was about the Temple taxes.The Pharisees were handing a percentage of the Temple taxes over to Rome - because the common Jews hated giving their wealth to their oppressors - giving it to the Temple was much less objectionable.

    Jesus was cleverly avoiding a trap, and to me quite clearly says, "If you have Roman coins, pay Caesar with that. Anything you give to the Temple, should be used to do God's work, not Rome's."
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 10-05-2016 at 07:58 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    My take is that over-taxation was a big issue - just like today.

    The controversy was about the Temple taxes.The Pharisees were handing a percentage of the Temple taxes over to Rome - because the common Jews hated giving their wealth to their oppressors - giving it to the Temple was much less objectionable.

    Jesus was cleverly avoiding a trap, and to me quite clearly says, "If you have Roman coins, pay Caesar with that. Anything you give to the Temple, should be used to do God's work, not Rome's."
    All taxation is overtaxation.

    The Temple tax controversy was a separate one. That might be worth talking about too. But "Give unto Caesar" is about a tribute Caesar demanded from subjugated provinces. As I understand it, Jesus' instruction for the Temple tax was that it was not required for him and his followers to pay it, but it was expedient, and for that reason, he did. But paying the tribute to Caesar was positive violation of God's covenant with Israel in collusion with a profaning of the promised land by a pagan regime, and Jesus did not permit it.

  22. #19
    The accounts of this episode found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke don't differ very much. Since most scholars believe that Matthew and Luke derived their accounts of this from Mark, I'll just use Mark in this discussion for now. Here's the passage, Mark 12:13-17:
    13 Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words. 14 When they had come, they said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? 15 Shall we pay, or shall we not pay?”

    But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, “Why do you test Me? Bring Me a denarius that I may see it.” 16 So they brought it.

    And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”

    17 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

    And they marveled at Him.

  23. #20
    The scribes and Pharisees were trying to trick Jesus...because they were angry that Jesus whipped the money changers and threw them out of the Temple.


    Matthew 22:15-22 (KJV)

    15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

    16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

    17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

    18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

    19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

    20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

    21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

    22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  24. #21
    Can a gift from God be taxed?

    If so, who taxes God?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #22
    What bunklocoempire said above about the Pharisees (and this applies to the Herodians too) being in league with the Roman Empire, and benefitting from its control over Galilee and Judea is absolutely correct. And that is important background to the story.

    Let me start by making a couple observations from how the Pharisees and Herodians present their question in v. 14.

    When they had come, they said to Him, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?
    First, notice the premise, "You do not regard the person of men."

    This is an common biblical idiom. It refers to showing partiality. A fundamental passage illustrating this sense from the Law of Moses (and this is especially important, because the question posed to Jesus about tribute to Caesar is essentially a question of what his ruling is, as to what the Law of Moses demands in this case), is Deuteronomy 1:17:
    You shall not show partiality [lit. respect a person] in judgment; you shall hear the small as well as the great; you shall not be afraid in any man’s presence, for the judgment is God’s. The case that is too hard for you, bring to me, and I will hear it.’
    Thus, behind the question is the idea that, to allow Caesar to demand tribute from Judeans and Galileans is to show partiality to him as a powerful king. One of the hallmarks of the Law of Moses that distinguishes it from all other ancient near-eastern law codes is that it does not have any double standard that allows a king to do what would be a sin for any commoner and treat it as licit for the king. In the case of Caesar's tribute, since it would be a violation of, "Thou shalt not steal," were any commoner to exact such a tribute, the question the Pharisees and Herodians are getting at is, "Wouldn't allowing Caesar to demand this tribute entail respecting his person, and allowing him to do what commoners aren't allowed to do, because he's a powerful king?".

    Notice that in Jesus' answer to their question, there is no hint that he rejects this premise. One thing the Herodians and Pharisees are right about is that Jesus is no respecter of persons.

    But they aren't ready for Jesus to go as far as he does in his answer. For he is about to show them that Caesar is not just guilty of violating God's law against theft, but also of imposing on the land of Israel an irredeemably idolatrous, and even satanic, rule, in which no Law observant Israelites should have any part at all.

    Notice a second point about this opening question the Pharisees and Herodians ask.

    The way the version I quoted above puts it is, "Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar?".

    This English rendering has some ambiguity that isn't there in the Greek. When they say, "Is it lawful," they are not asking, "Is it required to pay tribute to Caesar?", but rather, "Is it permissible to pay tribute to Caesar." The Greek verb translated "is lawful" here, only means to be permitted or allowed. It does not mean to be required.

    In other words, the disputable point for them isn't whether or not the people are morally obligated to pay tribute. It's a given that they are not. But the question is whether or not they are allowed to pay it. This may seem counter-intuitive, but it shouldn't. The consequences for not paying this tribute could be severe. Simply paying it was the easy way out. These Pharisees and Herodians know that if they can get Jesus to say that the people are not permitted to pay this tribute, he will provide them with cause for bringing charges against him and anyone who follows his teaching that could result in their suffering of crucifixion as insurrectionists.

    And allow me to foreshadow where this is going. As a matter of fact, forbidding people to pay tribute to Caesar actually was one of the charges brought against Jesus, for which he was crucified soon after he spoke these words. Luke 23:2 says:
    And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.”
    As time allows, I'll point out some things in Jesus' answer that show how this charge was not a false one, but that the Herodians and Pharisees knew exactly what Jesus was getting at, and indeed, it was forbidding the payment of tribute to Caesar.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I think Jesus wants me to be happy .
    in the long run. yes
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Let me start...<snip> ... and indeed, it was forbidding the payment of tribute to Caesar.
    I think you have spent so much time studying the trees that you have lost sight of the forest.

    Asshats: "Is it lawful to pay tribute to Caesar?"
    Jesus: "Who's picture and superscription is on that coin?"
    Asshats: "Caesar's"
    Jesus: "Give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give unto God what belongs to God."

    How can you possibly conclude that Jesus is forbidding paying the tribute? That is what they *wanted* him to do. That was the whole reason they approached him - and he pwned them.

    The "Who's picture is that?" line is the most important part of the exchange.
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 10-06-2016 at 02:12 AM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I do not see how one can make the argument that the passage was an instruction to not pay taxes
    Why not?

    Ceasar says, "Give me your stuff."

    God says, "Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's"

    Didn't Ceasar just say it was your stuff? Why does it belong to him?
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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post








    that gotee







    erowe1 when you're done you should refine your points and update the wikipedia page

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar


    if you're ever banned again I'll protest
    you may need to see an eye doctor. I do not wear a goatee.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    How can you possibly conclude that Jesus is forbidding paying the tribute?
    As I said, I will show you that.

    The forest is made of trees. And you aren't seeing those trees (people who use the word "pwn" generally don't). Once you see them all, they'll add up to a forest of proof that the Pharisees and Herodians were right to understand that Jesus was forbidding payment of tribute to Caesar.
    Last edited by erowe1; 10-06-2016 at 06:52 AM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    erowe1 when you're done you should refine your points and update the wikipedia page

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Render_unto_Caesar
    Great idea!

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    you may need to see an eye doctor. I do not wear a goatee.
    what then is it we call this hair on chin and upper lip but no cheeks thing you got going my friend?


    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  34. #30
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    My short take is this - the fruits of your labor are yours and yours alone but if you made an agreement with Caesar then you need to uphold your end of the agreement. Also, if you borrowed something from Caesar you should give it back. There is nothing you, Caesar or anyone else has done that makes you inherently in debt to Caesar.

    These concepts are logical and obvious.
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