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Thread: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism,’ says U.N. panel

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Next thing ya know , they will want casinos .
    More money in that.
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  3. #62
    For the record . I owe nothing to strangers. No slavers in my family.
    Do something Danke

  4. #63
    I am not racist , I am free trade .I take money from any color
    Do something Danke

  5. #64
    This supports my recent theory that the elites might actually be supporting the "far-right." This could drive people towards Trumpism.
    Last edited by Tywysog Cymru; 09-28-2016 at 03:21 PM.
    Stop believing stupid things



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Here's another false equivalency. "Slavery is racist". Were slaves beaten by white masters because they were black or because they were property? The entire premise of the UN thing is that U.S. is guilty of "racial terrorism". If it is, it's more towards Native Americans than blacks. Black slaves were worth money at least. History shows that Natives were preferred dead.
    Saying the American slavery system was racist is not false equivalency because I did not falsely equating it to anything else, I did not even say whether it was racist or not. But since you brought up the R word, let looks into it. Slavery was racist and I am saying this regardless of the fact that some slaves were non black and some slave masters were blacks. But still the system operated on getting black slaves from Africa to work the land, whether the choice of black people was to making it uniform or whatever is irrelevant, the fact still remains that it was racially based which makes it racist. I think a little bit of what happened to Native Americans was genocide and that too is racial terrorism, it is not impossible to have a certain crime committed against 2 groups of people i.e. is not an either or proposition.


    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    And why do you start the reply saying that "it's different for someone who actually was a slave, vs. someone who is a descendant". Obviously, and I would agree, and I think it's obvious that was how my snarky comment was couched. But then here, when you "warn me" you act as if I am somehow addressing an actual slave/prisoner?
    Its nice if you can start quoting me correctly and in context. If you read the whole paragraph you would have seen that the actual slave vs descendant talk was me trying to point out that only one truly has any claim to compensation from their slave masters. Its not snark, its just me trying to get the record straight. The warning was for you not to use the same logic in other real life situation and used a falsely imprisoned person to make an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Anyway, point is, you've straw-manned me in your last paragraph. Because it's clear I'm talking to current living black people who obviously weren't slaves.

    So to recap, slavery is not based in racism. It's economic terrorism. We all suffer from economic terrorism of a more insidious pernicious variety today, albeit less physically severe. And we are all in that boat, moreso than "we all were" in the slave days.
    I know you were talking to descendants of slaves but I put in thee warning about using the same line of thinking regarding other people demanding reparation. If you told someone to forget compensation because there are bigger fish to fry, you might get hit in the face. Its not only that is it wrong but it is also a bad argument.

    Wrong, slavery is in the US was based on race and yes it too was a form of economic terrorism, again not an either or proposition. And new slavery is not just less physically severe, it is also less mentally straining, less spiritually restrictive and just a lot more restraining and tasking in every aspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    I do believe racism exists, not claiming it's in peoples imaginations, but it isn't is bad as it used to be and it certainly isn't unique to America. And slavery isn't the "metastisizing" of racism. My coworker is Romanian and I'm amazed how much racism exists between various white clans still in europe.

    And I have used this analogy in public, around black people. Of course I'm cautious, but I can generally tell when someone is an idiot or not within a couple minutes of talking to them.

    People do need to educate themselves if they think race is more relevant than economic class. It is the media and the propaganda that attempts to frame social conflicts around conservative/progressive, black/white, gay/straight when it's always ever been about the the haves and the have nots, the powerful and the powerless, those who follow the law and those who don't.
    Now it seems like you are the one strawmanning me

  8. #66
    "If you told someone to forget compensation because there are bigger fish to fry, you might get hit in the face."

    Wut?
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    And would Obama just get half a check?
    You are legally black with just 1 drop of black blood in your genes.

    One-drop rule
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The one-drop rule is a social and legal principle of racial classification that was historically prominent in the United States asserting that any person with even one ancestor of sub-Saharan-African ancestry ("one drop" of black blood)[1][2] is considered black (Negro in historical terms). This concept evolved over the course of the 19th century and became codified into law in the 20th century. It was associated with the principle of "invisible blackness" and is an example of hypodescent, the automatic assignment of children of a mixed union between different socioeconomic or ethnic groups to the group with the lower status.[3]
    There is no spoon.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    You are legally black with just 1 drop of black blood in your genes.

    One-drop rule
    wow...
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  11. #69
    So- how about the Irish?

    They were made slaves and usually treated much worse than blacks because they were cheaper and not as valuable.
    There is no spoon.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So- how about the Irish?

    They were made slaves and usually treated much worse than blacks because they were cheaper and not as valuable.
    The vast majority of Irish workers were indentured servants who had a chance to win their freedom once they paid off their debt. They were not slaves, you know better than buying the stupid Moleyneux propaganda. This and the fact that they weren't the ideal slave race made them very less valuable than black slaves, who in their right mind would pay more money for a servant who can easily buy their freedom over a slave they can own in perpetuity?. Also stop listening to Stefan Moleyneux, the man is a completely biased commentator when the topic involves race.

    The other problem is this myth that being more valuable somehow buys you better treatment from the master, it doesn't and you have to take my word for it. The Irish weren't treated worse than the black in America and they weren't the only whites who came to the US as indentured servants.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    The vast majority of Irish workers were indentured servants who had a chance to win their freedom once they paid off their debt. They were not slaves, you know better than buying the stupid Moleyneux propaganda. This and the fact that they weren't the ideal slave race made them very less valuable than black slaves, who in their right mind would pay more money for a servant who can easily buy their freedom over a slave they can own in perpetuity?. Also stop listening to Stefan Moleyneux, the man is a completely biased commentator when the topic involves race.

    The other problem is this myth that being more valuable somehow buys you better treatment from the master, it doesn't and you have to take my word for it. The Irish weren't treated worse than the black in America and they weren't the only whites who came to the US as indentured servants.
    Uh...no. And I never listen to Moleyneux.

    Irish Slaves – What The History Books Will Never Tell You

    Posted on March 4, 2016 by Royce Christyn in Sci/Environment // Comments (296)

    Did you know that more Irish slaves were sold in the 17th century than black slaves? With a staggering death rate between 37% to 50%, this is the story the history books will not tell you.

    White and Black Slaves in the Sugar Plantations of Barbados. None of the Irish victims ever made it back to their homeland to describe their ordeal. These are the lost slaves; the ones that time and biased history books conveniently forgot.

    The first slaves imported into the American colonies were 100 White children. They arrived during Easter, 1619, four months before the arrival of a the first shipment of Black slaves. Mainstream histories refer to these laborers as indentured servants, not slaves, because many agreed to work for a set period of time in exchange for land and rights.

    Yet in reality, indenture was enslavement, since slavery applies to any person who is bought and sold, chained and abused, whether for a decade or a lifetime. Many white people died long before their indenture ended or found that no court would back them when their owners failed to deliver on promises. Tens of thousands of convicts, beggars, homeless children and other undesirable English, Scottish, and Irish lower class were transported to America against their will to the Americas on slave ships. YES SLAVE SHIPS.

    Many of the white slaves were brought from Ireland, where the law held that it was ?no more sin to kill an Irishman than a dog or any other brute.? The European rich class caused a lot of suffering to these people , even if they were white like them.In 1676, there was a huge slave rebellion in Virginia. Black and white slaves burned Jamestown to the ground. Hundreds died. The planters feared a re-occurence. Their solution was to divide the races against each other. They instilled a sense of superiority in the white slaves and degraded the black slaves. White slaves were given new rights; their masters could not whip them naked without a court order,etc. White slaves whose daily condition was no different from that of Blacks, were taught that they belonged to a superior people. The races were given different clothing. Living quarters were segregated for the first time. But the whites were still slaves.
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    In the 17th Century, from 1600 until 1699, there were many more Irish sold as slaves than Africans. There are records of Irish slaves well into the 18th Century.Many never made it off the ships. According to written record, in at least one incident 132 slaves, men, women, and children, were dumped overboard to drown because ships’ supplies were running low. They were drowned because the insurance would pay for an “accident,” but not if the slaves were allowed to starve.

    Typical death rates on the ships were from 37% to 50%.In the West Indies, the African and Irish slaves were housed together, but because the African slaves were much more costly, they were treated much better than the Irish slaves. Also, the Irish were Catholic, and Papists were hated among the Protestant planters. An Irish slave would endure such treatment as having his hands and feet set on fire or being strung up and beaten for even a small infraction. Richard Ligon, who witnessed these things first-hand and recorded them in a history of Barbados he published in 1657, stated:”Truly, I have seen cruelty there done to servants as I did not think one Christian couldhave done to another.”(5)According to Sean O’Callahan, in To Hell or Barbados, Irish men and women were inspected like cattle there, just as the Africans were.

    In addition, Irish slaves, who were harder to distinguish from their owners since they shared the same skin color, were branded with the owner’s initials, the women on the forearm and the men on the buttocks. O’Callahan goes on to say that the women were not only sold to the planters as sexual slaves but were often sold to local brothels as well. He states that the black or mulatto overseers also often forced the women to strip while working in the fields and often used them sexually as well.(6)The one advantage the Irish slaves had over the African slaves was that since they were literate and they did not survive well in the fields, they were generally used as house servants, accountants, and teachers. But the gentility of the service did not correlate to the punishment for infractions.

    Flogging was common, and most slave owners did not really care if they killed an easily replaceable, cheap Irish slave.While most of these slaves who survived were eventually freed after their time of service was completed, many leaving the islands for the American colonies, many were not, and the planters found another way to insure a free supply of valuable slaves. They were quick to “find solace” and start breeding with the Irish slave women. Many of them were very pretty, but more than that, while most of the Irish were sold for only a period of service, usually about 10 years assuming they survived, their children were born slaves for life.

    The planters knew that most of the mothers would remain in servitude to remain with their children even after their service was technically up.The planters also began to breed the Irish women with the African male slaves to make lighter skinned slaves, because the lighter skinned slaves were more desirable and could be sold for more money. A law was passed against this practice in 1681, not for moral reasons but because the practice was causing the Royal African Company to lose money. According to James F. Cavanaugh, this company, sent 249 shiploads of slaves to the West Indies in the 1680’s, a total of 60,000 African and Irish, 14,000 of whom died in passage.(7)While the trade in Irish slaves tapered off after the defeat of King James in 1691, England once again shipped out thousands of Irish prisoners who were taken after the Irish Rebellion of 1798.

    These prisoners were shipped to America and to Australia, specifically to be sold as slaves. No Irish slave shipped to the West Indies or America has ever been known to have returned to Ireland. Many died, either in passage or from abuse or overwork. Others won their freedom and emigrated to the American colonies. Still others remained in the West Indies, which still contain an population of “Black Irish,” many the descendants of the children of black slaves and Irish slaves. In 1688, the first woman killed in Cotton Mather’s witch trials in Massachusetts was an old Irish woman named Anne Glover, who had been captured and sold as a slave in 1650.

    She spoke no English. She could recite The Lord’s Prayer in Gaelic and Latin, but without English, Mather decided her Gaelic was discourse with the devil, and hung her. It was not until 1839 that a law was passed in England ending the slave trade, and thus the trade in Irish slaves. It is unfortunate that, while the descendants of black slaves have kept their history alive and not allowed their atrocity to be forgotten, the Irish heritage of slavery in America and the West Indies has been largely ignored or forgotten.
    http://yournewswire.com/the-irish-sl...ou-in-history/
    There is no spoon.

  14. #72
    Did You Know the First Legal Slave Owner in America Was a Black Man?

    Jim Hoft Apr 27th, 2015 1:32 pm 77 Comments

    Here’s something you won’t read about in the US history books.
    The first legal slave owner in America was black and he owned white slaves


    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015...ica-was-black/

    And the counter opinion::

    http://www.mythdebunk.com/first-slav...ican-american/
    Last edited by Danke; 09-28-2016 at 06:10 PM.
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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Uh...no. And I never listen to Moleyneux.



    http://yournewswire.com/the-irish-sl...ou-in-history/

    ‘Irish slaves’: the convenient myth
    LIAM HOGAN 14 January 2015
    It was with a heavy heart and no small amount of anger that I decided it was necessary to write a public refutation of the insidious myth that the Irish were once chattel slaves in the British colonies. The subject of this myth is not an issue in academic circles, for there is unanimous agreement, based on overwhelming evidence, that the Irish were never subjected to perpetual, hereditary slavery in the colonies, based on notions of ‘race’. Unfortunately this is not the case in the public domain and the ‘Irish slaves’ myth has been shared so frequently online that it has gone viral.

    The tale of the Irish slaves is rooted in a false conflation of indentured servitude and chattel slavery. These are not the same. Indentured servitude was a form of bonded labour, whereby a migrant agreed to work for a set period of time (between two and seven years) and in return the cost of the voyage across the Atlantic was covered. Indentured servitude was a colonial innovation that enabled many to emigrate to the New World while providing a cheap and white labour force for planters and merchants to exploit. Those who completed their term of service were awarded ‘freedom dues’ and were free. The vast majority of labourers who agreed to this system did so voluntarily, but there were many who were forcibly transplanted from the British Isles to the colonies and sold into indentured service against their will. While these forced deportees would have included political prisoners and serious felons, it is believed that the majority came from the poor and vulnerable. This forced labour was in essence an extension of the English Poor Laws, e.g. in 1697 John Locke recommended the whipping of those who ‘refused to work’ and the herding of beggars into workhouses. Indeed this criminalisation of the poor continues into the 21st century. In any case, all bar the serious felons were freed once the term of their contract expired.

    “White indentured servitude was so very different from black slavery as to be from another galaxy of human experience,” as Donald Harman Akenson put it in If the Irish Ran the World: Montserrat, 1630-1730. How so? Chattel slavery was perpetual, a slave was only free once they they were no longer alive; it was hereditary, the children of slaves were the property of their owner; the status of chattel slave was designated by ‘race’, there was no escaping your bloodline; a chattel slave was treated like livestock, you could kill your slaves while applying “moderate correction” and the homicide law would not apply; the execution of ‘insolent’ slaves was encouraged in these slavocracies to deter insurrections and disobedience, and their owners were paid generous compensation for their ‘loss’; an indentured servant could appeal to a court of law if they were mistreated, a slave had no recourse for justice. And so on..
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/beyond...onvenient-myth

    Again, not saying it was Shangri la for any servants in the new world and yes loads of people died young and not just the Irish, but like I said in my earlier post, the vast majority of the Irish workers that came to the new world were voluntary indentured servants, the rest being forced indentured servants. The distinction being that even the forced ones had a chance to buy their freedom and they were in a better position than the black slaves.

    Its just the truth.

  17. #74
    Btw, these are the credentials of the author of my article.

    Liam Hogan
    Liam Hogan is a librarian and historian based in Limerick City Library. He is a graduate of the University of Limerick and Aberystwyth University and is currently working on his first book, a study of the historical relationship between Limerick and slavery. His special research interests are slavery, the politics of memory, early twentieth century Limerick and power.

    Not saying one should automatically believe him over Royce Christyn but you have to agree that is bring a really strong background when it comes to history and slavery.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    And would Obama just get half a check?
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Next thing ya know , they will want casinos .
    Yah, I'll just drop this off here.


  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yah, I'll just drop this off here.

    HB's favorite singer.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  20. #77
    She was easier on the eyes then than the Obummers are now.
    Do something Danke

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/beyond...onvenient-myth

    Again, not saying it was Shangri la for any servants in the new world and yes loads of people died young and not just the Irish, but like I said in my earlier post, the vast majority of the Irish workers that came to the new world were voluntary indentured servants, the rest being forced indentured servants. The distinction being that even the forced ones had a chance to buy their freedom and they were in a better position than the black slaves.

    Its just the truth.
    The same with black slaves. Until a black land owner won permanent servitude against an indentured black man in a Virginia court.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yah, I'll just drop this off here.

    Cher was so hot in her hayday. Too bad she became a liberal nutcase...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The same with black slaves. Until a black land owner won permanent servitude against an indentured black man in a Virginia court.
    And why is this a reply to my post? The post you replied to was making the point that the Irish servants were indentured servants not slaves. If you want to disprove it, go ahead, I am waiting.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    And why is this a reply to my post? The post you replied to was making the point that the Irish servants were indentured servants not slaves. If you want to disprove it, go ahead, I am waiting.
    1. Your entire post structure, language use, and general signature has changed dramatically. Weird stuff. Hope you're feeling okay.

    2. Do you know what a "coffin ship" is?

    ETA:

    3. Do you know that some black slaves were allowed to buy their freedom as well? Being able to buy your own contract does not change the fact there's a contract to begin with. There were white slaves, just the same as there were black masters (which you yourself mentioned). There were also plenty of black people selling fellow black people into slavery. I would not say it was a racist institution originally, but it led to racism in that the common Colonial was raised with the vast majority of black people they came into contact with being property, therefore it was easier to think of them as lessers and dehumanize them.

    4. A lot of white slaves were more of the legs-spread variety. It doesn't make them less a slave to call them a prostitute. They are owned, with no chance of buying freedom, and far less chance of a lovely life. Not all slaves were whipped.
    Last edited by MelissaWV; 09-28-2016 at 07:12 PM.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    1. Your entire post structure, language use, and general signature has changed dramatically. Weird stuff. Hope you're feeling okay.

    2. Do you know what a "coffin ship" is?

    ETA:

    3. Do you know that some black slaves were allowed to buy their freedom as well? Being able to buy your own contract does not change the fact there's a contract to begin with. There were white slaves, just the same as there were black masters (which you yourself mentioned). There were also plenty of black people selling fellow black people into slavery. I would not say it was a racist institution originally, but it led to racism in that the common Colonial was raised with the vast majority of black people they came into contact with being property, therefore it was easier to think of them as lessers and dehumanize them.

    4. A lot of white slaves were more of the legs-spread variety. It doesn't make them less a slave to call them a prostitute. They are owned, with no chance of buying freedom, and far less chance of a lovely life. Not all slaves were whipped.
    I know there were some black indentured servants, some black slave owners, you are telling me something I already know. What I am saying is that the vast majority of the white slaves were in the indentured servant category and the vast majority of the black workers were in the category of chattle slaves.

    I will have to look into the legs-spread group along with the term "coffin ship". I will also go in for a check up, I have had a stuff nose all day and yes, just stuff nose and nothing else

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    And why is this a reply to my post? The post you replied to was making the point that the Irish servants were indentured servants not slaves. If you want to disprove it, go ahead, I am waiting.
    And so were blacks. And, just as blacks, Irish-Americans are now slaves also. As are everyone else. It just took a bit longer. It was not about race, though race was certainly a part of it. It was about power and authoritarianism. And power and authoritarianism doesn't care who it subjugates. Just about how it goes about it.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Btw, these are the credentials of the author of my article.

    Liam Hogan
    Liam Hogan is a librarian and historian based in Limerick City Library. He is a graduate of the University of Limerick and Aberystwyth University and is currently working on his first book, a study of the historical relationship between Limerick and slavery. His special research interests are slavery, the politics of memory, early twentieth century Limerick and power.

    Not saying one should automatically believe him over Royce Christyn but you have to agree that is bring a really strong background when it comes to history and slavery.
    I am also a history buff- Irish "indentured servants" were no different that slaves.

    What to do with the Irish?

    From the Tudor reconquest of Ireland until Irish Independence in 1921, the English puzzled over the problem of what to do with all those Irish people.
    They were the wrong religion. They spoke the wrong language. But the big problem was that there were just too many of them.

    The English had been practicing a slow genocide against the Irish since Queen Elizabeth, but the Irish bred too fast and were tough to kill. On the other side of the Atlantic, there was a chronic labor shortage (because the local natives tended to die out too quickly in slavery conditions).

    Putting two and two together, King James I started sending Irish slaves to the new world.

    The first recorded sale of Irish slaves was to a settlement in the Amazon in 1612, seven years before the first African slaves arrived in Jamestown.


    The Proclamation of 1625 by James II made it official policy that all Irish political prisoners be transported to the West Indies and sold to English planters. Soon Irish slaves were the majority of slaves in the English colonies.

    In 1629 a large group of Irish men and women were sent to Guiana, and by 1632, Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat in the West Indies. By 1637 a census showed that 69% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves, which records show was a cause of concern to the English planters. But there were not enough political prisoners to supply the demand, so every petty infraction carried a sentence of transporting, and slaver gangs combed the country sides to kidnap enough people to fill out their quotas.

    The slavers were so full of zest that they sometimes grabbed non-Irishmen. On March 25, 1659, a petition was received in London claiming that 72 Englishmen were wrongly sold as slaves in Barbados, along with 200 Frenchmen and 7-8,000 Scots.
    So many Irish slaves were sent to Barbados, between 12,000 and 60,000, that the term "barbadosed" began to be used.

    By the 1630's, Ireland was the primary source of the English slave trade.

    And then disaster struck.

    Cromwell

    After Oliver Cromwell defeated the royalists in the English Civil War, he turned to Ireland, who had allied themselves with the defeated royalists. What happened next could be considered genocide.

    The famine (caused by the English intentionally destroying foodstocks) and plague that followed Cromwell's massacres reduced the population of Ireland to around 40%.

    And then Cromwell got really nasty.

    Anyone implicated in the rebellion had their land confiscated and was sold into slavery in the West Indies. Even catholic landowners who hadn't taken part of the rebellion had their land confiscated.

    Catholicism was outlawed and catholic priests were executed when found.

    To top it off, he ordered the ethnic cleansing of Ireland east of Shannon in 1652. Soldiers were encouraged to kill any Irish who refused to relocate.

    Instead of trying to describe the horror, consider the words from the English State Papers in 1742.

    "In clearing the ground for the adventurers and soldiers (the English capitalists of that day)... To be transported to Barbados and the English plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, which might thus be made English and Christians ... a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired men and boys for their bondsmen, and the women and Irish girls... To solace them."

    I can't help but notice that the exact same language and logic used to justify enslavement of the blacks was used to justify enslavement of the Irish.
    It is something for those who think slavery was simply a matter of skin color to consider.

    As for the Irish slaves, Cromwell specifically targeted Irish children.

    “During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, [Oliver] Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.”

    For some reason, history likes to call these Irish slaves as 'indentured servants'. As if they were somehow considered better than African slaves. This can be considered an attempt at whitewashing the history of the Irish slave trade.

    There does exist indentured servitude where two parties sign a contract for a limited amount of time. This is not what happened to the Irish from 1625 onward. They were sold as slaves, pure and simple.

    In reality, they were considered by some to be even lower than the blacks.


    “...the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period,” writes Martin. “It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.”

    African slaves were still relatively new, and were expensive to transport such a long distance (50 sterling in the late 1600's). Irish slaves on the other hand, were relatively cheap in comparison (5 sterling).

    If a planter whipped or branded or beat an Irish slave to death, it was never a crime. A death was a monetary setback, but far cheaper than killing a more expensive African. The English masters quickly began breeding the Irish women for both their own personal pleasure and for greater profit. Children of slaves were themselves slaves, which increased the size of the master’s free workforce.

    Because Irish slaves were so much cheaper, the loss of investment from torturing and killing them was not considered an effective deterrent. In an ironic twist, this caused some to recommend importing African slaves instead for humanitarian reasons.

    Colonel William Brayne wrote to English authorities in 1656 urging the importation of Negro slaves on the grounds that, "as the planters would have to pay much more for them, they would have an interest in preserving their lives, which was wanting in the case of (Irish)...." many of whom, he charged, were killed by overwork and cruel treatment. African Negroes cost generally about 20 to 50 pounds Sterling, compared to 900 pounds of cotton (about 5 pounds Sterling) for an Irish. They were also more durable in the hot climate, and caused fewer problems. The biggest bonus with the Africans though, was they were NOT Catholic, and any heathen pagan was better than an Irish Papist.

    "Truly, I have seen cruelty there done to servants as I did not think one Christian could have done to another."
    - Richard Ligon, 1657


    It's impossible to estimate the exact number of Irish sold into slavery during this period. More Irish slaves were sold in the American colonies between 1651 and 1660 than the entire free population of those colonies. In fact, more Irish were sold as slaves in the America's during the 17th Century than Africans.

    The typical death rate on the slave ships was around 37%.

    The Irish did often have one advantage over African slaves - most of the time their time in slavery was limited. They were often sold into slavery from 7 to 20 years, while the only way Africans could get out of slavery was to buy their freedom.

    While the number of Irish being sent into slavery dropped off considerably in the 1660's, it did not just end.

    After the Battle of the Boyne in 1691 there was another load of Irish slaves sent to the new world. Following the failure of the 1798 Irish Rebellion there were tens of thousands more Irish slaves.
    Last edited by Ender; 09-28-2016 at 07:28 PM.
    There is no spoon.

  29. #85
    Devolved to victimhood Olympics thread.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I am also a history buff- Irish "indentured servants" were no different that slaves.
    If you cannot see the glaring difference between voluntarily accepting servitude as a way of paying off a debt and being captured, chained and completely owned in perpetuity by another human being then I cannot carry on with this conversation anymore. No point

  31. #87
    Why is "slavery" even a thing after so many years?? Why don't other countries have to pay blacks for slavery?? Pretty much every country had slaves in the past...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

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  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Saying the American slavery system was racist is not false equivalency because I did not falsely equating it to anything else, I did not even say whether it was racist or not. But since you brought up the R word, let looks into it. Slavery was racist and I am saying this regardless of the fact that some slaves were non black and some slave masters were blacks. But still the system operated on getting black slaves from Africa to work the land, whether the choice of black people was to making it uniform or whatever is irrelevant, the fact still remains that it was racially based which makes it racist. I think a little bit of what happened to Native Americans was genocide and that too is racial terrorism, it is not impossible to have a certain crime committed against 2 groups of people i.e. is not an either or proposition.

    Its nice if you can start quoting me correctly and in context. If you read the whole paragraph you would have seen that the actual slave vs descendant talk was me trying to point out that only one truly has any claim to compensation from their slave masters. Its not snark, its just me trying to get the record straight. The warning was for you not to use the same logic in other real life situation and used a falsely imprisoned person to make an example.

    I know you were talking to descendants of slaves but I put in thee warning about using the same line of thinking regarding other people demanding reparation. If you told someone to forget compensation because there are bigger fish to fry, you might get hit in the face. Its not only that is it wrong but it is also a bad argument.

    Wrong, slavery is in the US was based on race and yes it too was a form of economic terrorism, again not an either or proposition. And new slavery is not just less physically severe, it is also less mentally straining, less spiritually restrictive and just a lot more restraining and tasking in every aspect.

    Now it seems like you are the one strawmanning me
    I wasn't saying that you were saying slavery is racism. I was making a general statement.

    My original statement was just an attempt to summarize my beliefs in a clever way. Methinks you are making too much of it, and dissecting my backpedal post to this degree is way more time investment than I really want to make. In general I don't like to argue about what people think or said, because the goal posts are always shifting and it ends up just wasting time.

    You took issue with my clever statement. You made it clear why, I and others got it. If you want to continue, maybe ask a different question.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 09-29-2016 at 08:13 AM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    Why is "slavery" even a thing after so many years?? Why don't other countries have to pay blacks for slavery?? Pretty much every country had slaves in the past...
    let's look at where the word "slave" comes from... why don't we pay that group back first?

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    If you cannot see the glaring difference between voluntarily accepting servitude as a way of paying off a debt and being captured, chained and completely owned in perpetuity by another human being then I cannot carry on with this conversation anymore. No point
    Did you read my posts?

    The Irish didn't "volunteer"; it was either die or get on the slave ships. The Brits were trying to wipe out the dirty scum and take their lands.
    There is no spoon.

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