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Thread: ** The Official Unofficial Debate Thread - Sept 26, 2016 **

  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    If you were a mod and you had a candidate that would not shut up, cut into the other candidate's time, and rambled on and on about himself, what would you do?
    I would have stopped combatively blasting that candidate with loaded questions, and frequent interruptions that were causing him to go over time, and cut into the other candidate's time.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/



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  3. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    You can clean it up all you want to but the true, main fact is even simpler: It's easy to lose, and be thrown off your game when you're being double teamed. It's easy to win, if you get the softballs while the other candidate gets the hardballs, with follow-ups. Hillary didn't get asked about her real/alleged scandals or flaps, but Trump got hammered on his. Despite this, viewers saw through the unbalanced charade and found Trump reasonable, as indicated by the preponderance of the online polls (including liberal sites like Slate).

    Hillary proved she could win on debate points when the issues presented are deeply tilted towards her. All Trump had to do was prove he could survive being double teamed, while not making a fatal gaffe, not prove that he was optimally prepared. He just needed to show he could weather Hillary's best engineered storm, and he succeeded.
    No, Trump had to prove that he should be taken seriously. Anyone could see from a mile away that the moderator would be biased. If Trump wasn't prepared for that reality, then he was even more underprepared than I thought he would be. The fact is, Hillary was rehearsed. She played her hand well and Donald took the bait, hook, line, and sinker.

    The moderator didn't bring up Clinton's flip-flops, scandals, etc. However, Trump easily could have. If he wasn't so busy talking about himself and bragging himself up, he could have easily deflected everything back onto Clinton. He was doing all right early on in the debate, but he just can't refrain from falling into obvious traps. That's his own fault, not anyone else's. When you're going up against a Clinton, it's something you have to be prepared for.

    Here's an example. At the beginning of the debate, Hillary is talking about the housing crises and decides to try to present herself as the compassionate candidate (all Democrats do) by pointing out that Donald Trump anticipated the collapse and couldn't wait to capitalize on it. Amidst Hillary's spewing of facts regarding people who lost their money, their homes, etc., Trump coldly responds, "That's just business."

    Okay, we know it's just business. However, instead of giving out an Ebeneezer Scrooge answer, he could have deflected it back onto her by joking something like, "Well, it's like you once said, 'Never waste a good crisis!'" It would have pointed out the hypocrisy of Clinton and at least have let people know that they share similar flaws.

    There were multiple opportunities to give better responses or to simply deflect criticism and hold a mirror to Hillary, but he did what he does best instead.

    Trump did not prepare for this debate, meanwhile, Hillary was preparing months in advance for it. This is why it went down the way it did, and only Trump can be blamed. Maybe he'll prepare more for the next debate.

  4. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Your propaganda is showing. You cut off the other half of that graphic that shows Holt's interruptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    That's pretty damning. Even though Trump pointed out that the media has been Hillary's best campaigner, it goes to show how slick they are. Average viewer wouldn't particularly notice the slant but after reading that, holy $#@!. Mind control 101.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  5. #544
    Who else thought Trump's frequent "drinks of water" were a subtle visual cue of Hillary's water glass moments? He never actually drank from the glass.

    He also felt her back a couple times to see what/if she was wearing something. I could be wrong but her coat looked like it was made of steel inside and she kinda just "lived in it". There's definitely some $#@!ery going on with her health but who knows what kind of DARPA $#@! they have her working with. Iron Man suit under the Mao outfits...
    Last edited by devil21; 09-27-2016 at 11:01 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  7. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Who else thought Trump's frequent "drinks of water" were a subtle visual cue of Hillary's water glass moments? He never actually drank from the glass.

    He also felt her back a couple times to see what/if she was wearing something. I could be wrong but her coat looked like it was made of steel inside and she kinda just "lived in it". There's definitely some $#@!ery going on with her health but who knows what kind of DARPA $#@! they have her working with. Iron Man suit under the Mao outfits...
    That woman gives me the heebee jeebees something fierce.

  8. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Havnes View Post
    No, Trump had to prove that he should be taken seriously. Anyone could see from a mile away that the moderator would be biased. If Trump wasn't prepared for that reality, then he was even more underprepared than I thought he would be. The fact is, Hillary was rehearsed. She played her hand well and Donald took the bait, hook, line, and sinker.

    The moderator didn't bring up Clinton's flip-flops, scandals, etc. However, Trump easily could have. If he wasn't so busy talking about himself and bragging himself up, he could have easily deflected everything back onto Clinton. He was doing all right early on in the debate, but he just can't refrain from falling into obvious traps. That's his own fault, not anyone else's. When you're going up against a Clinton, it's something you have to be prepared for.

    Here's an example. At the beginning of the debate, Hillary is talking about the housing crises and decides to try to present herself as the compassionate candidate (all Democrats do) by pointing out that Donald Trump anticipated the collapse and couldn't wait to capitalize on it. Amidst Hillary's spewing of facts regarding people who lost their money, their homes, etc., Trump coldly responds, "That's just business."

    Okay, we know it's just business. However, instead of giving out an Ebeneezer Scrooge answer, he could have deflected it back onto her by joking something like, "Well, it's like you once said, 'Never waste a good crisis!'" It would have pointed out the hypocrisy of Clinton and at least have let people know that they share similar flaws.

    There were multiple opportunities to give better responses or to simply deflect criticism and hold a mirror to Hillary, but he did what he does best instead.

    Trump did not prepare for this debate, meanwhile, Hillary was preparing months in advance for it. This is why it went down the way it did, and only Trump can be blamed. Maybe he'll prepare more for the next debate.
    More likely he will cry about being "treated unfairly", threaten to skip the next debate. Though I think the next one he will do a bit better.
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  9. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Trump has the DILBERT vote as comic strip creator says he's already won – and warns Hillary could spend her presidency caring for a dying husband
    Scott Adams, the brainchild of the comic strip Dilbert, has switched his allegiance from Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump
    Writing on his blog, Adams argues that Trump seems to have already won - and he worried about the health of both Hillary and Bill Clinton
    'Hillary wouldn’t be much use to the country if she is taking care of a dying husband on the side,' argues Adams
    Adams believes that the country needs a trained persuader over a policy wonk, and objected to Hillary Clinton's hike of the estate tax


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4LR8hF0iM
    Follow us: @MAIlOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    He says he isn't voting, and up until Hillary announced her 65% estate tax he thought she would b the better choice for him because it just means more of the same. But my fascination (via Lucille - thanks!) is the predictions he's made so far have been spot on. He called her health issue early last winter.

  10. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Havnes View Post
    ...

    Here's an example. At the beginning of the debate, Hillary is talking about the housing crises and decides to try to present herself as the compassionate candidate (all Democrats do) by pointing out that Donald Trump anticipated the collapse and couldn't wait to capitalize on it. Amidst Hillary's spewing of facts regarding people who lost their money, their homes, etc., Trump coldly responds, "That's just business."

    Okay, we know it's just business. However, instead of giving out an Ebeneezer Scrooge answer, he could have deflected it back onto her by joking something like, "Well, it's like you once said, 'Never waste a good crisis!'" It would have pointed out the hypocrisy of Clinton and at least have let people know that they share similar flaws.
    Or how about this... instead of giving out an Ebeneezer Scrooge answer, he could have flipped it back on her by saying "You're blaming me for anticipating a collapse that came about due to the policies that you supported? I could see what your dangerous and irresponsible policies would cause, but you couldn't. The collapse was your fault. It isn't my fault that thousands of people lost their homes. That's on you lady."

  11. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by ProBlue33 View Post
    I believe that the cognitive dissonance in the core American voter for both sides has never been stronger than right now.
    I am not talking about RPF members we are a different type.
    But as I pondered the debate, even as Pro-Trump person I had to admit that he lost, just as if your scored a boxing score card fairly and without favoritism.

    Yet look at this....



    People are largely voting by who they want to see win, they don't give !@#$ who won the debate.
    Trump and Ron Paul have two things in common they won internet polls and the MSM went after them.

    The MSM does not like grassroots populism from the GOP side.
    I shared your perception, but again with the Scott Adams...he said that nobody actually cares about what people say so the debate content didn't matter. Also Trump did not do anything to hurt himself, and so his overall trend up the polls would continue. And finally, she looked tired. People might not have noticed it consciously, but those are things the subconscious processes.

  12. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Dary View Post
    Or how about this... instead of giving out an Ebeneezer Scrooge answer, he could have flipped it back on her by saying "You're blaming me for anticipating a collapse that came about due to the policies that you supported? I could see what your dangerous and irresponsible policies would cause, but you couldn't. The collapse was your fault. It isn't my fault that thousands of people lost their homes. That's on you lady."
    Another good response! The point is that there were so many ways to turn this back on Clinton's head, but he takes the bait too often. When he's on his game and talking business, he's doing fairly well. When he goes into any other territory, or when Clinton starts prodding him, he falls very far.

  13. #551
    on the birther issue. Hillary using the race card kinda pissed me off. Trump could have said Obama's mother is white, and ended the attack.

    meh...i still think Trump did ok in spite of his 'rambling' rants.
    Last edited by JK/SEA; 09-27-2016 at 12:24 PM.

  14. #552
    I don't even understand the whole birther thing in light on this 2016 election season. Ted Cruz was ruled eligible for president because his mother was a US citizen when he was born in Canada. Even if Obama was born in Kenya, how is his situation any different to Cruz's?



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  16. #553

  17. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Trumps questions were weighted heavily on public perception. The debate was basically designed to have a conversation about the things the Trump has been avoiding. $#@! you can't say no to in a debate but you can in a interview. Frankly his responses to the birther questions and Iraq have been the most lackluster and that's we are not entertained. Trump won't be the entertainer in chief at this rate.
    I hate both Shillary AND Rump, I want neither of them to win. However I am objective enough to plainly see that Holt tossed Hillary all softballs and Holt threw Trump all hardballs. If anyone has spent even 10 minutes reading my posts over the last 12 months, it is blatantly obvious I am NOT defending Trump. I hate the beggar as much as I hate the shrew. However I think we also owe a duty to reality to be accurate.

  18. #555
    And now this:

    BOMBSHELL! Hillary’s Lawyers Rigged Debates, Working out “Debate Deal” that included no “Cross-Examination Questions” for Hillary

    There is proof that Hillary’s team rigged the debates.

    Our friends at True Pundit reported a month ago that Hillary’s lawyers worked out a “sweet deal” for Clinton, guaranteeing she would not be asked “cross-examination” questions by the moderator.

    At all.

    This would allow Clinton, who cannot handle stressful questions, to memorize canned answers and rattle them off during the debate.

    Here’s an expert from True Pundits report from late August:



    This is EXACTLY what happened at Monday night’s debate.

    The information obtained by True Pundit came from a Clinton operative.

    Read more here.

    Clearly, this debate was rigged – like every single thing that Hillary does in her life – it was staged, fixed, and setup.

    Hillary can’t win on her record or her merits – so she cheats.

    That’s the Clinton Way.
    http://truthfeed.com/bombshell-hilla...hillary/26121/
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  19. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I hate both Shillary AND Rump, I want neither of them to win. However I am objective enough to plainly see that Holt tossed Hillary all softballs and Holt threw Trump all hardballs. If anyone has spent even 10 minutes reading my posts over the last 12 months, it is blatantly obvious I am NOT defending Trump. I hate the beggar as much as I hate the shrew. However I think we also owe a duty to reality to be accurate.
    what conclusions do you draw?

    I see the Establishment smashing Ron Paul with a hammer, with Trump instead of Ron Paul.

  20. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    what conclusions do you draw?

    I see the Establishment smashing Ron Paul with a hammer, with Trump instead of Ron Paul.
    I see Trump being kept front and center in the GOP by the media/Establishment by decrying the things that brought him supporters. They just Blacked Ron Out.

  21. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I see Trump being kept front and center in the GOP by the media/Establishment by decrying the things that brought him supporters. They just Blacked Ron Out.
    Yep.
    There is no spoon.

  22. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Havnes View Post
    Another good response! The point is that there were so many ways to turn this back on Clinton's head, but he takes the bait too often. When he's on his game and talking business, he's doing fairly well. When he goes into any other territory, or when Clinton starts prodding him, he falls very far.
    Maybe his performance last night could be compared to chumming the water when fishing. He goes for all the bait this go round and sets her up big time for the next. Who knows. Either way we are screwed.

  23. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    what conclusions do you draw?

    I see the Establishment smashing Ron Paul with a hammer, with Trump instead of Ron Paul.
    Ron Paul was "He Who Must Not Be Named," while Donald Trump is "He Who Must Constantly Be Named."



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  25. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    Ron Paul was "He Who Must Not Be Named," while Donald Trump is "He Who Must Constantly Be Named."
    Ya think?
    There is no spoon.

  26. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I see Trump being kept front and center in the GOP by the media/Establishment by decrying the things that brought him supporters. They just Blacked Ron Out.
    I see an establishment who at first mistakenly blew off Trump as a passing amusement, then realized too late he was a threat to both Jeb and Hillary. Trump kept HIMSELF front and center, as he couldn't be blacked out because of his ability to self-fund his primary campaign, and his 30 years of branding in the culture made him too compellingly high profile a figure to suppress. In this fashion he has provided a solution to the establishment's marginalization of alternative candidates that could not be overcome by the Pauls, and one that we should be thankful for.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  27. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    I see an establishment who at first mistakenly blew off Trump as a passing amusement, then realized too late he was a threat to both Jeb and Hillary. Trump kept HIMSELF front and center, as he couldn't be blacked out because of his ability to self-fund his primary campaign, and his 30 years of branding in the culture made him too compellingly high profile a figure to suppress. In this fashion he has provided a solution to the establishment's marginalization of alternative candidates that could not be overcome by the Pauls, and one that we should be thankful for.
    Thankful, why? Because Trump was able to barge in with his celebrity means suddenly Thomas Massie will be able to do the same?

  28. #564
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    I see an establishment who at first mistakenly blew off Trump as a passing amusement, then realized too late he was a threat to both Jeb and Hillary. Trump kept HIMSELF front and center, as he couldn't be blacked out because of his ability to self-fund his primary campaign, and his 30 years of branding in the culture made him too compellingly high profile a figure to suppress. In this fashion he has provided a solution to the establishment's marginalization of alternative candidates that could not be overcome by the Pauls, and one that we should be thankful for.
    So..he's nothing like the Paul's. I agree. Do you really think that the fact that he has been kept front and center by a media that we all know is corporat/Establishment controlled is HIS doing? The media simply Blacked Paul Out. Remember that? They could have done the same to Trump, but did they? Why did they not? His branding and money means squat. If they wanted to Black him out they could have. And $#@! no, I'm not thankful for his buffoonery in the least. He's not an alternative candidate. He's making a mockery of actual ones like Ron Paul. He's a want to be. At the least a beneficiary of a Hillary presidency that he may well deliver.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 09-27-2016 at 09:37 PM.

  29. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    I see an establishment who at first mistakenly blew off Trump as a passing amusement, then realized too late he was a threat to both Jeb and Hillary. Trump kept HIMSELF front and center, as he couldn't be blacked out because of his ability to self-fund his primary campaign, and his 30 years of branding in the culture made him too compellingly high profile a figure to suppress. In this fashion he has provided a solution to the establishment's marginalization of alternative candidates that could not be overcome by the Pauls, and one that we should be thankful for.
    Agree, but I would add that Trump was the only one to successfully exploit the concerns of a good portion of the GOP. This has been building, and was ripe for exploitation. Immigration, job losses, stagnant wages, destruction of the middle class were issues waiting for someone to champion. Trump talked the talk, but I don't believe for a minute he is sincere, and he would not do anything to solve them.

    Sanders caught that same wave on the left, and although he was fairly sincere, all of his "solutions" are counter-productive.

    Don't know that "thankful" would be the appropriate word for enjoying the freak-out by the establishment, neocons and the progressive left about Trump. I believe that "schadenfreude" would be more descriptive.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  30. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Havnes View Post
    No, Trump had to prove that he should be taken seriously. Anyone could see from a mile away that the moderator would be biased. If Trump wasn't prepared for that reality, then he was even more underprepared than I thought he would be. The fact is, Hillary was rehearsed. She played her hand well and Donald took the bait, hook, line, and sinker.
    Your approach to the debate is mainly issue or argument focused, instead of attentive to other factors. Again, the end game is winning the election, not to show one was better prepared to debate. Trump was trying to look rational enough to win in November, not to win points for one evening.

    This counter view---that Trump performed as he did to 1) avoid 'bad optics' traps designed to hurt him regardless of what he did, and 2) to reserve his fire for the follow-up debates, where the negatives of being more aggressive will not nearly be as big a factor---is backed up by prior behavior of the campaign, and analysis by several observers of his "rope-a-dope" approach. By letting Hillary be on offense, she can't play the "he unfairly beat up on a woman" card from the outset. And by giving her the floor in the first debate to run through all her arsenal of tricks, he's betting she'll run out of gas in the debates going forward. Both Bob Wenzel, Scott "Dilbert' Adams, and even Michael Moore concur on the latter point:

    http://www.targetliberty.com/2016/09...y-hillary.html
    http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1510077...e-first-debate
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywo...dential-debate

    This is exactly parallel to how, for example, Trump let Team Clinton burn through a hundred million in cash during the summer, thereby wasting money running ads before the months where voters make up their minds, so he could fight the ad war with her in the fall, when the spending and ground game actually counts. He's likewise saved his fire or 'axe' for the later debates, instead of wasting his ammo in the first round.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  31. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    Thankful, why? Because Trump was able to barge in with his celebrity means suddenly Thomas Massie will be able to do the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    So..he's nothing like the Paul's. I agree. Do you really think that the fact that he has been kept front and center by a media that we all know is corporat/Establishment controlled is HIS doing? The media simply Blacked Paul Out. Remember that? They could have done the same to Trump, but did they? Why did they not? His branding and money means squat. If they wanted to Black him out they could have. And $#@! no, I'm not thankful for his buffoonery in the least. He's not an alternative candidate. He's making a mockery of actual ones like Ron Paul. He's a want to be. At the least a beneficiary of a Hillary presidency that he may well deliver.
    What it means is Massie, or whoever else our real, consistent liberty candidate is will need to have the ability to bypass the blackout factor. They couldn't block out a super famous person who could self-fund, from Perot to the Donald. Whether one supports Trump or not, or views him as an alternative or not, the fact remains he had the ability to get around that obstacle, and to put together a winning vote coalition. Yes, we need to be thankful a case example exists for how to do so.

    A major party nomination will not be handed to our liberty candidates, they will be fought and marginalized ferociously. We can bemoan the institutional obstacle all we want, but we still have to have a credible plan to deal with it. We will NOT overcome it by running the same exact one-dimensional candidate as before, who is right on the issues, but has no effective means of defeating the blackout or winning primaries.
    Last edited by Peace&Freedom; 09-28-2016 at 06:40 AM.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  32. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    I don't even understand the whole birther thing in light on this 2016 election season. Ted Cruz was ruled eligible for president because his mother was a US citizen when he was born in Canada. Even if Obama was born in Kenya, how is his situation any different to Cruz's?
    I believe one state said he could be on the (primary?) ballot. There was nothing about his eligibility to be president.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

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  34. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    What it means is Massie, or whoever else our real, consistent liberty candidate is will need to have the ability to bypass the blackout factor. They couldn't block out a super famous person who could self-fund, from Perot or the Donald. Whether one supports Trump or not, or views him as an alternative or not, the fact remains he had the ability to get around that obstacle, and to put together a winning vote coalition. Yes, we need to be thankful a case example exists for how to do so.

    A major party nomination will not be handed to our liberty candidates, they will be fought and marginalized ferociously. We can bemoan the institutional obstacle all we want, but we still have to have a credible plan to deal with it. We will NOT overcome it by running the same exact one-dimensional candidate as before, who is right on the issues, but has no effective means of defeating the blackout or winning primaries.
    Why would a liberty candidate want to build a vote coalition with authoritarians?
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  35. #570
    ..
    Last edited by AZJoe; 09-28-2016 at 06:59 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

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