** The Official Unofficial Debate Thread - Sept 26, 2016 **

[Peace&Freedom]

Why would a liberty candidate want to build a vote coalition with authoritarians?

Putting aside our disagreement over Trump, WHAT IS YOUR EFFECTIVE PLAN for how a true national liberty candidate can defeat the establishment blackout or win in the primaries? Are you really saying you have no idea, or in fact, no desire to see our candidate bother to win over any voter blocs, because you regard everybody outside the liberty base as authoritarians? Do you just want to commit the movement to running educational campaigns (only within the GOP, not the LP) forever more, while America burns?

[H. E. Panqui]

Putting aside our disagreement over Trump, WHAT IS YOUR EFFECTIVE PLAN for how a true national liberty candidate can defeat the establishment blackout or win in the primaries? Are you really saying you have no idea, or in fact, no desire to see our candidate bother to win over any voter blocs, because you regard everybody outside the liberty base as authoritarians? Do you just want to commit the movement to running educational campaigns (only within the GOP, not the LP) forever more, while America burns?

...we live in a country/world of monetary ignorance/monetary ignoramuses...incredible as it sounds, apparently not a stinking one of these republicans and democrats have any honest understandings of the hideous origin and nature of even one 'dollar'...despite their gaping holes frequently working as to the illion 'dollar' economy...how about starting here: FIND SOME CANDIDATES WHO UNDERSTAND AND CAN/WILL SPEAK ABOUT THIS FRAUDULENT GODDAMNED INSANE MONETARY ORDER UNDER WHICH WE ARE EN$LAVED!!..

...unfortunately, the puppet-ma$ter$ do the 'candidate planning'...and apparently anyone with any honest idea$ is quickly eliminated from consideration...

...jerry voorhis, steve zarlenga, bill still..

[AZJoe]

[Ender]

As always, Ben Swann is:

ON. THE. NOSE.

Thanks!

[CPUd]

Putting aside our disagreement over Trump, WHAT IS YOUR EFFECTIVE PLAN for how a true national liberty candidate can defeat the establishment blackout or win in the primaries? Are you really saying you have no idea, or in fact, no desire to see our candidate bother to win over any voter blocs, because you regard everybody outside the liberty base as authoritarians? Do you just want to commit the movement to running educational campaigns (only within the GOP, not the LP) forever more, while America burns?

No, Trump supporters are authoritarians. For a liberty candidate to attract them, it would require the candidate to run as an authoritarian.

[Peace&Freedom]

No, Trump supporters are authoritarians. For a liberty candidate to attract them, it would require the candidate to run as an authoritarian.

So, just to be clear, and to insure you don't evade the point yet again---you really ARE saying you have no desire to see our candidates bother to win over any voter blocs, because you regard everybody outside the liberty base as authoritarians?

[CPUd]

So, just to be clear, and to insure you don't evade the point yet again---you really ARE saying you have no desire to see our candidates bother to win over any voter blocs, because you regard everybody outside the liberty base as authoritarians?

No there are quite a few to build coalitions with, like conservatives and some center-left who align with issues like police brutality. Authoritarians, I don't see how that would work, because they want a police state and massive increases of the MIC.

[Peace&Freedom]

No there are quite a few to build coalitions with, like conservatives and some center-left who align with issues like police brutality. Authoritarians, I don't see how that would work, because they want a police state and massive increases of the MIC.

Coalitions are built to only a minor extent directly on issue agreement, and to a larger extent (the extent that translates into winning majorities) on emotional agreement (does the other faction like you, trust you, bond with you, respect you, are grateful you are an ally, and feel you think the same of them). That's how the populist coalition Trump has forged 'works,' whereas the Pauls never developed any such emotional alliance with any broader Republican voting bloc.

Treating most of them with utter contempt by demonizing them as thoroughly authoritarian, is a negative vibe they easily picked up, causing most of the rank and file to shun our candidates. Since the populist, nationalist, socon and anti-establishment sentiments in the GOP are the richest veins from which to build those emotional bonds, those are the dynamics we should be seeking to build a coalition with. Wholesale dismissing them as authoritarians is the fastest way to turn them off.

[CaptUSA]

Coalitions are built to only a minor extent directly on issue agreement, and to a larger extent (the extent that translates into winning majorities) on emotional agreement (does the other faction like you, trust you, bond with you, respect you, are grateful you are an ally, and feel you think the same of them). That's how the populist coalition Trump has forged 'works,' whereas the Pauls never developed any such emotional alliance with any broader Republican voting bloc.

Oh please... Trump's political career was created because the media gave him billion$$ in free ads. It had nothing to do with issues or appealing to "blocs". If they had said the name Ron Paul as many times as they say Trump, he would be sailing to victory in his re-election bid.

[silverhandorder]

Oh please... Trump's political career was created because the media gave him billion$$ in free ads. It had nothing to do with issues or appealing to "blocs". If they had said the name Ron Paul as many times as they say Trump, he would be sailing to victory in his re-election bid.

If that is the delusion you want to sell your self I don't mind.

[CPUd]

Coalitions are built to only a minor extent directly on issue agreement, and to a larger extent (the extent that translates into winning majorities) on emotional agreement (does the other faction like you, trust you, bond with you, respect you, are grateful you are an ally, and feel you think the same of them). That's how the populist coalition Trump has forged 'works,' whereas the Pauls never developed any such emotional alliance with any broader Republican voting bloc.

Treating most of them with utter contempt by demonizing them as thoroughly authoritarian, is a negative vibe they easily picked up, causing most of the rank and file to shun our candidates. Since the populist, nationalist, socon and anti-establishment sentiments in the GOP are the richest veins from which to build those emotional bonds, those are the dynamic we should be seeking to build a coalition with. Wholesale dismissing them as authoritarians is the fastest way to turn them off.

How does a liberty candidate attract authoritarians without taking positions that are destructive to liberty?

[nikcers]

If that is the delusion you want to sell your self I don't mind.

Mitt Romney won the 2012 nomination because he was saying what everyone is thinking. Wait they had a different talking point for him.

[silverhandorder]

Mitt Romney won the 2012 nomination because he was saying what everyone is thinking. Wait they had a different talking point for him.

Romney won because establishment had more power in 2012.

[nikcers]

Romney won because establishment had more power in 2012.

If that is the delusion you want to sell your self I don't mind.

[pcosmar]

Mitt Romney won the 2012 nomination because he was saying what everyone is thinking. Wait they had a different talking point for him.

No,, He won through vote flipping and dirty politics. Same way McCain did.

[nikcers]

No,, He won through vote flipping and dirty politics. Same way McCain did.

Were you not involved in the campaign at all? At least in my state there were a crap ton of Mitt Romney voters, especially old people and mormons. You kind of get to know them because you end up showing up at the same places.

[pcosmar]

Were you not involved in the campaign at all? At least in my state there were a crap ton of Mitt Romney voters, especially old people and mormons. You kind of get to know them because you end up showing up at the same places.

Officially. No.

unofficially yes. and I saw Ron's Campaign sabotaged in Michigan. I saw McCain get votes when he had no support. I saw Romney's paid support.

And now Trump is trolling the GOP.. @karma

and they earned it,, every bit.

[devil21]

More evidence of debate fakery. Watch something 'power down' on Hillary's podium in the first second of the vid. Not visible on Trump's podium. Then it appears the guy who snags the folder off Hillary's podium gives it to Holt??

https://twitter.com/DepContentAhead/...04600572841984

eta: it's not rigging against Trump. Trump is in on it. Trump is playing along.

[Peace&Freedom]

How does a liberty candidate attract authoritarians without taking positions that are destructive to liberty?

By not taking authoritarian positions, and not painting others as 100% authoritarian if they hold some non-liberty positions. Saying "you're a fascist" is not the way to start or to conduct a conversation to win somebody over. Our task is to steer existing mass voter sentiments towards a liberty direction, or at least use those sentiments/feelings as a carrier for our views.

For example, the rank and file GOP felt like they had been lied to by politicians promising conservative policy and an emphasis on prioritizing American interests and cultural tradition, but in office only voted for more spending, more wars and globalist projects, and more cave-ins to PC. They wanted somebody who would fight this trend, the elite that controls it, show resolve under pressure, and put domestic matters first.

As stated by former RNC Chair Michael Steele: “If you look at the whole Republican Party, from libertarians to evangelicals to the Tea Party,” says Steele, “you have a group of people who’ve been lied to for 35 years. Republican [presidential candidates] have said, ‘Elect us and we’ll do these things.’ Well, they haven’t. And that frustration is manifesting itself in Trump.”

Trump engaged this dynamic, while Rand sidestepped it, by NOT confronting the MSM and leadership, not showing resolve against the regime, and not embracing the outsider trend, with outsider gestures. Once liberty candidates speak TO these concerns, and not AT them, they will draw the broader populist factins over to our side.

[RandallFan]

I dont understand why liberty lovers, NeverTrumpers are trying to concern-troll trump by using teocon talking points like Libya & Bill Clinton's affairs.

It's not going to work unless you are trying to bait her into a gaffe and try to tie the game you are win.

Trump only needs to add this to what has been said:"Clinton freed a child rapist" & "she did it for money or career advancement" or something along those lines.

Don't try to explain it and get caught in some rape wording gaffe.

No one believes the trump rape story because he only appears to date busty 30 year olds. But Bill Clinton will screw anything.

The liberal bloggers & dems will go apoplectic about defendants' rights & act like he's an idiot not understanding the legal system.

Voters dont care. The average semi-informed voter doesn't care if child rapists gets reasonable representation.

[CPUd]

By not taking authoritarian positions, and not painting others as 100% authoritarian if they hold some non-liberty positions. Saying "you're a fascist" is not the way to start or to conduct a conversation to win somebody over. Our task is to steer existing mass voter sentiments towards a liberty direction, or at least use those sentiments/feelings as a carrier for our views.

For example, the rank and file GOP felt like they had been lied to by politicians promising conservative policy and an emphasis on prioritizing American interests and cultural tradition, but in office only voted for more spending, more wars and globalist projects, and more cave-ins to PC. They wanted somebody who would fight this trend, the elite that controls it, show resolve under pressure, and put domestic matters first.

As stated by former RNC Chair Michael Steele: “If you look at the whole Republican Party, from libertarians to evangelicals to the Tea Party,” says Steele, “you have a group of people who’ve been lied to for 35 years. Republican [presidential candidates] have said, ‘Elect us and we’ll do these things.’ Well, they haven’t. And that frustration is manifesting itself in Trump.”

Trump engaged this dynamic, while Rand sidestepped it, by NOT confronting the MSM and leadership, not showing resolve against the regime, and not embracing the outsider trend, with outsider gestures. Once liberty candidates speak TO these concerns, and not AT them, they will draw the broader populist factins over to our side.

It looks like you are saying authoritarians need to be steered toward liberty positions. This is about education, and I agree these people need to be educated. That's not the job of the candidate, but of activists on the ground, and sites like RPFs.

[devil21]

Trump is obviously not a victim of the rigging. He is part of it. His job is to condition conservatives into accepting more police state measures while losing the election, by design. He provides a vent but doesn't provide a solution.

[H. E. Panqui]

As always, Ben Swann is:

ON. THE. NOSE.

Thanks!

...i will note that dandy-suited swann perpetuates the notion that these stinking republicrat press conferences are 'debates' ...i'm sorry, but getting johnson and stein to participate in this obviously fraudulent puny phony scripted 'debate' is worse than a waste of time...

...also, i will note the term 'liberty' is thoroughly hackneyed...i believe you'll find that pure 'liberty' and 'freedom' are nothing more or less than anarchy..[and btw, it's been my experience that after extensive honest inquiry i have found even the loudest 'anarchists' are 'minarchists'...at best]

....i dream of 'justice'..[i know i know..] ...remember, some individuals don't deserve 'liberty'..but we always deserve 'justice', don't we?

...and i'll go with those people who say, "NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE" [no 'liberty' either]

[John F Kennedy III]

Trump is obviously not a victim of the rigging. He is part of it. His job is to condition conservatives into accepting more police state measures while losing the election, by design. He provides a vent but doesn't provide a solution.

This ^

[Todd]

Trump is obviously not a victim of the rigging. He is part of it. His job is to condition conservatives into accepting more police state measures while losing the election, by design. He provides a vent but doesn't provide a solution.

Dude I'm using that......

[Peace&Freedom]

It looks like you are saying authoritarians need to be steered toward liberty positions. This is about education, and I agree these people need to be educated. That's not the job of the candidate, but of activists on the ground, and sites like RPFs.

It looks like you are saying that everybody who isn't 100% pro-liberty are 100% authoritarians. This is not mainly about education to get more issue conformity (which will not get us to 51%), but alliance building, to win more elections. A voting coalition is about getting a majority of people on your side, not necessarily in full agreement. It is thus profoundly the job of the candidate to appeal to a range of voting blocs, in the non-issue sense of liking, trusting, bonding, etc, whether or not they all ever become consistently pro-liberty.

[GunnyFreedom]

If that is the delusion you want to sell your self I don't mind.

It's pretty darn clear who being delusional in this exchange, and it's not CaptUSA.

[Jamesiv1]

As stated by former RNC Chair Michael Steele: “If you look at the whole Republican Party, from libertarians to evangelicals to the Tea Party,” says Steele, “you have a group of people who’ve been lied to for 35 years. Republican [presidential candidates] have said, ‘Elect us and we’ll do these things.’ Well, they haven’t. And that frustration is manifesting itself in Trump.”

This message, I am approve.

[devil21]

Dude I'm using that......

Feel free. If you look at that video I posted from the Twitter link, Trump could easily walk over to Hill's podium, inspect the electronic device and the folder of prepared notes/script she was using and then make a stink about it. But he doesn't. In fact, it looks like he walks in front of her podium to provide a block for the guy that snags her notes. He talks about the rigged system and he's right. What I haven't heard him say is anything about STOPPING the rigging.

"It's all rigged, folks. Believe me."

His job is to condition conservatives into accepting more agenda items that go against conservative principles so there will be less opposition when implemented by Hill/TPTB. "Well, Donald said it was ok." (So did Bush, McCain, Romney, etc) It happens every election cycle as the GOP nominee chips away at conservative principles. He tells you to your face that the system is rigged but people still play the game! It's interesting watching Trump work. Now, people even KNOW it's rigged, Donald told them straight up, yet nothing changes.

eta: good frame by frame of podium oddities. https://imgur.com/gallery/WxsAR

[CPUd]

It looks like you are saying that everybody who isn't 100% pro-liberty are 100% authoritarians. This is not mainly about education to get more issue conformity (which will not get us to 51%), but alliance building, to win more elections. A voting coalition is about getting a majority of people on your side, not necessarily in full agreement. It is thus profoundly the job of the candidate to appeal to a range of voting blocs, in the non-issue sense of liking, trusting, bonding, etc, whether or not they all ever become consistently pro-liberty.

There are definitely ways to do this with conservatives, young voters and moderates, but how does a liberty candidate get votes from authoritarians without abandoning liberty positions?