How to Solve the Illegal Immigration Problem

[Zippyjuan]

Except they aren't eligible for federal benefits. Even legal residents must wait five years to be eligible for federal benefits. This has been discussed many times.

Get your facts-n-figures back out and search "non-adult male" immigrants use of freebies.

And...............I'm advocating to end freebies for everyone especially US citizens.

As Ron Paul says, it is the welfare state, not immigrants, which is the problem. Immigration is a distraction. Going after immigrants does nothing about the welfare state problem.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/snap-po...en-eligibility

SNAP Policy on Non-Citizen Eligibility

Last Published: 03/11/2016
A person must be a U.S. citizen or an eligible, lawfully-present non-citizen to qualify for SNAP benefits. Non-citizens who are eligible based on their immigration status must also satisfy other SNAP eligibility requirements such as income and resource limits to receive SNAP benefits.

SNAP is welfare/ food stamps program. Persons on student or other temporary visas are also not eligible.

[tod evans]

Federal benefits my happy ass!

Freebies take many forms including federally funded programs provided by state and local governments, health care laws that mandate treating indigent are one example.

Focusing on one or two federal programs is merely another misdirect, one that I'm not falling for.

Taxpayers foot the bill for a disproportionate amount of an immigrant families expenses and entirely too many "single mothers" who are citizens, cut 'em all off!

[CaptUSA]

Damn. Once again demonstrates that Ron Paul fully gets it. Brilliantly easy solution - try liberty.

This segment should be the canned response to any immigration topic. Whether it comes from the progressives or the nationalists. Thank you, Dr. Paul!

Meanwhile the globalists and their useful idiots continue flooding our country with people who desire handouts and larger government.....

Calling Ron Paul and his supporters useful idiots... While you're supporting Donald Trump...

[Ender]

Calling Ron Paul and his supporters useful idiots... While you're supporting Donald Trump...

Go figure.

Plus the majority of illegals right now are actually Asians, who are among the smartest people on the planet. Most have overstayed their visas.

[brushfire]

Disincentivize illegal immigration. You fix more than just illegal immigration, and it will not require a wall. Its been demonstrated to be highly effective, from 2007-2009. Its not a hard issue to solve unless you're a politician, or dependent.

[helmuth_hubener]

"So walls are never very good at keeping people out. But they are very good at keeping people in. Just ask the East Germans."

Let us think logically.

Claim: Walls are good -- very good, in fact -- at keeping people in.

OK, that makes sense. Seems to be very true. Certainly this statement is backed up by the experience not only of Germany, but of every post-neolithic civilization. Walls are a proven, effective technology.

Claim: Walls are never very good at keeping people out.

Wait, if the wall *was* very effective, as Ron Paul says, at keeping East Germans in East Germany, does that not also mean it was very good at keeping East Germans out of West Germany? Yes, yes it does. The wall was for sure very effective -- the evidence is indisputable, and indeed no one disputes it. The principles of geometry teach us that saying it was effective at keeping people in, is the exact same statement as saying it was effective in keeping people out. If, to choose a hypothetical completely at random, a wall were built between Mexico and America which was effective at keeping people in Mexico, it would also be effective at keeping them out of America.

I have a problem: I always like to think logically and rationally. Sometimes it is more emotionally satisfying to cheer blatant contradictions because they "feel good".

[helmuth_hubener]

Immigration is a distraction.

Please look at who is saying this.

Please.

People, please, please, please think. Be smart. Be shrewd. Be skeptical.

Zippyjuan: "Immigration is a distraction."

Think!



The left thinks they're the only smart ones. The only ones that can think more than 30 years ahead. Don't let them be right!

[Zippyjuan]

Couple issuers on trying to project demographics.
1) The longer an immigrant family is in the country, the more conservative they become. If parents are liberal, the kids will be less so and their kids even more towards the right.

2) Hispanic and immigrant birth rates have been declining (as have "white" births). That keeps pushing the "white minority" even farther into the future. Recent estimates have whites as a majority at least until 2055 now- forty years from today. Whites will still be the largest racial group for decades later (assuming current trends continue).

In 40 years, Hispanics will not be as liberal as they are today.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...but-only-just/

The Census Bureau frequently revises its past population estimates to account for newly available data. Birth data is a special problem: In estimating the number and characteristics of newborns, the agency relies in part on birth certificate information from the National Center for Health Statistics that is two years out of date.

One reason that the bureau had to delay its claim of a majority-minority newborn population may have been a sharp falloff in births and birth rates after the onset of the Great Recession in 2007. Birth rates declined most steeply for Hispanic and immigrant women.

[Zippyjuan]

Please look at who is saying this.

Please.

People, please, please, please think. Be smart. Be shrewd. Be skeptical.

Zippyjuan: "Immigration is a distraction."

Think!
][/URL]

The left thinks they're the only smart ones. The only ones that can think more than 30 years ahead. Don't let them be right!

Yes- do look at who is saying this. Ron Paul. I believe that is his name on the masthead of this website.

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arch...ation-problem/

How to Solve the Illegal Immigration Problem


Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s recent speech on immigration really missed the point. I understand Trump’s frustration over the US government’s inability to control the US borders and keep out those who would come to this country illegally. Trump was right that the media ignore legitimate questions we have on our immigration policy and he is right that special interests have a great interest in maintaining the status quo.

However when it comes to really solving the immigration problem he gets it all wrong. And instead of making us more free and prosperous, his solutions will accelerate our downward slide toward authoritarianism.

Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s recent speech on immigration really missed the point. I understand Trump’s frustration over the US government’s inability to control the US borders and keep out those who would come to this country illegally. Trump was right that the media ignore legitimate questions we have on our immigration policy and he is right that special interests have a great interest in maintaining the status quo.

However when it comes to really solving the immigration problem he gets it all wrong. And instead of making us more free and prosperous, his solutions will accelerate our downward slide toward authoritarianism.

First let’s consider his idea of building a big wall between the US and Mexico. It is said that all one needs to get over an eight foot fence is a nine foot ladder. Or perhaps a shovel. So walls are never very good at keeping people out. But they are very good at keeping people in. Just ask the East Germans. The communist government claimed in 1961 that it had to build a wall around the portion of Berlin it controlled to keep the population safe from the evil capitalist wreckers and saboteurs. It didn’t take long for the world to realize that the real threat to the East German leaders was that the people trapped in East Berlin would try to get out. We have all seen the horrific videos of East German civilians risking – and losing – their lives to escape that prison of razor wire and cinder block.

Is this really what we want for our own future?

What a wild conspiracy theory, some may claim. The wall would never be meant to keep us from leaving. Well ask the IRS. Under a tax enforcement provision passed in 2015, the US government claimed the right to cancel any American citizen’s passport if Washington claims it is owed money.

Trump also made E-Verify the center of his immigration speech. He said, “We will ensure that E-Verify is used to the fullest extent possible under existing law, and we will work with Congress to strengthen and expand its use across the country.”

While preventing those here illegally from being able to gain employment may appeal to many who would like to protect American jobs, E-Verify is the worst possible solution. It is a police state non-solution, as it would require the rest of us legal American citizens to carry a biometric national ID card connected to a government database to prove that the government allows us to work. A false positive would result in financial disaster for millions of American families, as one would be forced to fight a faceless government bureaucracy to correct the mistake. Want to put TSA in charge of deciding if you are eligible to work?

The battle against illegal immigration is a ploy to gain more control over our lives. We are supposed to be terrified of the hoards of Mexicans streaming into our country and thus grant the government new authority over the rest of us. But in fact a Pew study found that between 2009 and 2014 there was a net loss of 140,000 Mexican immigrants from the United States. Yes, this is a government “solution” in search of a real problem.

How to tackle the real immigration problem? Eliminate incentives for those who would come here to live off the rest of us, and make it easier and more rational for those who wish to come here legally to contribute to our economy. No walls, no government databases, no biometric national ID cards. But not a penny in welfare for immigrants. It’s really that simple.

His words.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

"I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state," Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.

"Now there's a lot of antagonism and resentment turned just automatically on immigrants," he continued. "You say, no not immigrants, it's just illegal immigrants. I do believe in legal immigration. I want to have a provision to obey those laws. You have to understand this in the context of the economy."

Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

[axiomata]

Yes- do look at who is saying this. Ron Paul. I believe that is his name on the masthead of this website.

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arch...ation-problem/

Your handlers got to Ron Paul too?!?

[farreri]

How to Solve the Illegal Immigration Problem

Let the American Indians decide?

[helmuth_hubener]

Ron Paul does not say that immigration is a distraction.

Another lie.

Par for the course.

Immigration is a serious issue which causes serious problems and serious benefits and deserves serious thought. Ron Paul has a sincere opinion on the issue, which is not out of pure self-interest. His opinion does not align with what would technically be the best immigration policy if all he cared about were the long-term prospects for his political agenda in the USA. Instead he is taking a principled stand, and what he feels like is a measured, moderate stand, on an issue which has multiple conflicting factors for libertarians to take into account.

Read his chapter on immigration in Liberty Defined for more information. Zippyjuan will spin and lie. Ron Paul will simply tell you the truth, as best as he can see it.

Zippyjuan pushes the propaganda for the immigration policy that will best advance the leftist agenda: mass, uncontrolled, unlimited peasant migration. The peasants displace the native Americans. The natives are evil because they are not leftist enough. This is the most effective, sure-fire, permanent solution to that "problem." It's pure self-interest.

They have implemented this solution completely effectively, under-the-radar, with absolutely no opposition. Conservatives were too stupid to see the end game and too cowed to risk being smeared as racist. It's about halfway complete, I would estimate. For all practical purposes 100% complete, though, a done deal, because the only way to reverse it and make the future not theirs would be a massive demographic reversal in the form of some massive emigration (that is, leaving, going back home) event. Deportation, that is: voluntary or otherwise. Or: we're toast.

[helmuth_hubener]

Zippyjuan knows it. His masters know it. Behind closed doors, they are gloating and smirking and toasting to our soft-hearted stupidity, the inevitable triumph of leftism through demography, and to the coming totalitarian age.

[Ender]

Zippyjuan knows it. His masters know it. Behind closed doors, they are gloating and smirking and toasting to our soft-hearted stupidity, the inevitable triumph of leftism through demography, and to the coming totalitarian age.

Ron Paul's words are directly above:

The battle against illegal immigration is a ploy to gain more control over our lives. We are supposed to be terrified of the hoards of Mexicans streaming into our country and thus grant the government new authority over the rest of us. But in fact a Pew study found that between 2009 and 2014 there was a net loss of 140,000 Mexican immigrants from the United States. Yes, this is a government “solution” in search of a real problem.

How to tackle the real immigration problem? Eliminate incentives for those who would come here to live off the rest of us, and make it easier and more rational for those who wish to come here legally to contribute to our economy. No walls, no government databases, no biometric national ID cards. But not a penny in welfare for immigrants.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

"I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state," Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.

I appreciate that Zippy gives alternate POVs. Also- he NEVER insults or demeans other forum members.

[helmuth_hubener]

I appreciate that Zippy gives alternate POVs.

Oh, we all do! Where would we be without our foil? TheCount and PRB certainly don't cut it. But let's be clear. He gives one point of view: the leftist point of view.

You tend slightly left yourself, and so of course you are particularly sympathetic.

[Ender]

Oh, we all do! Where would we be without our foil? TheCount and PRB certainly don't cut it. But let's be clear. He gives one point of view: the leftist point of view.

You tend slightly left yourself, and so of course you are particularly sympathetic.

I am liberal in the original and true meaning of the word; politically I am Libertarian.

And try posting w/o the insults and innuendoes- it does no good.

[helmuth_hubener]

And try posting w/o the insults and innuendoes- it does no good.

Tending to the left is not an insult. You should not take it as such. I certainly meant no harm by it.

[Ender]

Tending to the left is not an insult. You should not take it as such. I certainly meant no harm by it.

Thanks- not always the case on this forum.

[helmuth_hubener]

Thanks- not always the case on this forum.

No worries. Is there any drama teacher anywhere on this green Earth who does not tend a bit left? I think not!

[Zippyjuan]

Ron Paul does not say that immigration is a distraction.

Another lie.

Par for the course.

Immigration is a serious issue which causes serious problems and serious benefits and deserves serious thought. Ron Paul has a sincere opinion on the issue, which is not out of pure self-interest. His opinion does not align with what would technically be the best immigration policy if all he cared about were the long-term prospects for his political agenda in the USA. Instead he is taking a principled stand, and what he feels like is a measured, moderate stand, on an issue which has multiple conflicting factors for libertarians to take into account.

Read his chapter on immigration in Liberty Defined for more information. Zippyjuan will spin and lie. Ron Paul will simply tell you the truth, as best as he can see it.

Zippyjuan pushes the propaganda for the immigration policy that will best advance the leftist agenda: mass, uncontrolled, unlimited peasant migration. The peasants displace the native Americans. The natives are evil because they are not leftist enough. This is the most effective, sure-fire, permanent solution to that "problem." It's pure self-interest.


.

Where do I call for mass unlimited, uncontrolled immigration? I have certainly argued that spending more money and restrictions would offer little if any benefits while adding to government and restricting our freedoms.

They have implemented this solution completely effectively, under-the-radar, with absolutely no opposition. Conservatives were too stupid to see the end game and too cowed to risk being smeared as racist. It's about halfway complete, I would estimate. For all practical purposes 100% complete, though, a done deal, because the only way to reverse it and make the future not theirs would be a massive demographic reversal in the form of some massive emigration (that is, leaving, going back home) event. Deportation, that is: voluntary or otherwise. Or: we're toast

Something like this?

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/1...ng-to-the-u-s/

More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to the U.S.
Net Loss of 140,000 from 2009 to 2014; Family Reunification Top Reason for Return

More Mexican immigrants have returned to Mexico from the U.S. than have migrated here since the end of the Great Recession, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from both countries. The same data sources also show the overall flow of Mexican immigrants between the two countries is at its smallest since the 1990s, mostly due to a drop in the number of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S.

From 2009 to 2014, 1 million Mexicans and their families (including U.S.-born children) left the U.S. for Mexico, according to data from the 2014 Mexican National Survey of Demographic Dynamics (ENADID). U.S. census data for the same period show an estimated 870,000 Mexican nationals left Mexico to come to the U.S., a smaller number than the flow of families from the U.S. to Mexico.

Measuring migration flows between Mexico and the U.S. is challenging because there are no official counts of how many Mexican immigrants enter and leave the U.S. each year. This report uses the best available government data from both countries to estimate the size of these flows. The Mexican data sources — a national household survey, and two national censuses — asked comparable questions about household members’ migration to and from Mexico over the five years previous to each survey or census date. In addition, estimates of Mexican migration to the U.S. come from U.S. Census Bureau data, adjusted for undercount, on the number of Mexican immigrants who live in the U.S.

[Zippyjuan]

Ron Paul on deportation in "Liberty Defined": http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Ron_...mmigration.htm

Sending 12M illegals home won't & shouldn't happen

Even with a healthy economy and stricter border controls, the issue of what to do with twelve-million-plus illegals already here would persist. One side says use the U.S. Army, round them up, and ship them home. The other side says give them amnesty, make them full-fledged citizens, and reward the lawbreakers, thus insulting and unfairly penalizing those who have patiently waited and obeyed our immigration laws. The first choice--sending twelve to fifteen million illegals home--isn't going to happen and should not happen. Neither the determination or the ability to accomplish it exists. Besides, if each case is looked at separately, we would find ourselves splitting up families and deporting some who have lived here for decades, if not their entire life, and who never lived for any length of time in Mexico.
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul, p.153 , Apr 19, 2011

Give illegals limbo status: a green card with an asterisk

Immigrants who can't be sent back due to the magnitude of the problem should not be given citizenship--no amnesty should be granted. Maybe a "green card" with an asterisk could be issued. This in-between status, keeping illegal immigrants in limbo, will be said that it will create a class of 2nd-class citizens. Yet it could be argued that it may well allow some immigrants who come here illegally a beneficial status without automatic citizenship--a much better option than deportation.
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul, p.156 , Apr 19, 2011

[PierzStyx]

But...........................Stopping the welfare state will certainly curtail immigration.

Not at all.

Immigrants don't come here to get on welfare. This idea is just silly. Consider most Hispanic immigrants come to the US from SOCIALIST countries with welfare benefits much more expansive than what we have here. If they wanted welfare benefits why would you leave a country with more and go to one with less? That doesn't make sense.

You know what does though? The reason people come to the US is for jobs. They come here to work, because there are fewer business regulations and labor restrictions, which results in a larger market with comparatively more wealth. The only reason immigrants end up on welfare is because the nativist, anti-market, economically protectionist statists make the labor of immigrants illegal. When your very person is made illegal, when your efforts to survive are made illegal, what recourse do you have but welfare and poverty? The problem with the welfare state isn't immigration, it is the idiots who think it should be illegal for immigrants to work.

As Ron said, "Prosperity is enhanced for all concerned when labor and capital move freely across borders without political interference. And so is peace!" (Swords Into Plowshares, pg 21)

And notice I didn't call them "illegal immigrants." I do this for teh same reason I don't call slaves who escaped through the Underground Railroad "illegal free people." When rights and laws conflict, rights win every time.

[PierzStyx]

Zippyjuan pushes the propaganda for the immigration policy that will best advance the leftist agenda: mass, uncontrolled, unlimited peasant migration. The peasants displace the native Americans. The natives are evil because they are not leftist enough. This is the most effective, sure-fire, permanent solution to that "problem." It's pure self-interest.

They have implemented this solution completely effectively, under-the-radar, with absolutely no opposition. Conservatives were too stupid to see the end game and too cowed to risk being smeared as racist. It's about halfway complete, I would estimate. For all practical purposes 100% complete, though, a done deal, because the only way to reverse it and make the future not theirs would be a massive demographic reversal in the form of some massive emigration (that is, leaving, going back home) event. Deportation, that is: voluntary or otherwise. Or: we're toast.

The irony of some calling themselves Helmuth Huebner, who was a teenager who was executed for opposing the Nazi Party during the war, spouting fascist, nativist. Leftist, anti-liberty propaganda is astounding.

And the gall to call anyone else a Leftist is sickening. You're the one talking about violating the liberty and property rights of at least fifteen million people in order to create a national "safe space" where big government will protect you from the scary brown people and their scary ideas. You sir are the Leftist. You are the one promoting Fascism.

[tod evans]

Not at all.

Immigrants don't come here to get on welfare. This idea is just silly. Consider most Hispanic immigrants come to the US from SOCIALIST countries with welfare benefits much more expansive than what we have here. If they wanted welfare benefits why would you leave a country with more and go to one with less? That doesn't make sense.

You know what does though? The reason people come to the US is for jobs. They come here to work, because there are fewer business regulations and labor restrictions, which results in a larger market with comparatively more wealth. The only reason immigrants end up on welfare is because the nativist, anti-market, economically protectionist statists make the labor of immigrants illegal. When your very person is made illegal, when your efforts to survive are made illegal, what recourse do you have but welfare and poverty? The problem with the welfare state isn't immigration, it is the idiots who think it should be illegal for immigrants to work.

As Ron said, "Prosperity is enhanced for all concerned when labor and capital move freely across borders without political interference. And so is peace!" (Swords Into Plowshares, pg 21)

And notice I didn't call them "illegal immigrants." I do this for teh same reason I don't call slaves who escaped through the Underground Railroad "illegal free people." When rights and laws conflict, rights win every time.

I believe it would.....

Simply for the reason that the citizenry currently sucking the tit would have to work to eat.

[helmuth_hubener]

The irony of some calling themselves Helmuth Huebner having well-thought-out ideas about immigration policy which may or may not differ from my own (I have not bothered to comprehend them sufficiently to know whether or not that's the case) is astounding, simply astounding. I am shocked and appalled.

Helmuth Hubener was a great man, and a hero, and specifically my hero. I have deep, deep admiration for him. I thank you for helping bring attention to him and spread his story.

And the gall, the gall! Oh, the irony and the gall! You are the sickening one. You are the evil one. You are the one violating the liberty of us all. You are the one plotting to murder fifteen million people. You are the one who is a Leftist. You are the one promoting Fascism.

Why 15? Why not 11? 30? 50? There are probably 100 million additional people in the US due to the 1965 Immigration Act -- the immigrants, illegal and legal, and their kids. Why not accuse me of murdering 100 million people? Bigger numbers are always better when making accusations. That's the level of change that would be required for a real reset that will last longer than a few generations anyway.

Anyway, again for the record: I do not support any of the things you think I do. I am not The Evil One. That's someone else. I am The One Who Is Awesome.

[PierzStyx]

Helmuth Hubener was a great man, and a hero, and specifically my hero. I have deep, deep admiration for him. I thank you for helping bring attention to him and spread his story.

Why 15? Why not 11? 30? 50? There are probably 100 million additional people in the US due to the 1965 Immigration Act -- the immigrants, illegal and legal, and their kids. Why not accuse me of murdering 100 million people? Bigger numbers are always better when making accusations. That's the level of change that would be required for a real reset that will last longer than a few generations anyway.

Anyway, again for the record: I do not support any of the things you think I do. I am not The Evil One. That's someone else. I am The One Who Is Awesome.

I didn't accuse you of murdering anyone.

I did draw attention to your fascist immigration argument. I did not call you a Nazi.

And I didn't accuse you of anything. I merely pointed out the facts of your proposed actions. You're the one arguing for "cultural genocide," and calling for mass deportation with violence if necessary, that will certainly lead to the deaths of at least tens of thousands and the violation of millions. You're making fascist arguments and proposing fascist solutions.

The irony that you deride Zippy as a Leftist while openly proclaiming Leftist government solutions is baffling.

[helmuth_hubener]

I didn't accuse you of murdering anyone.

And I did not say you did!

I did not call you a Nazi.

And I did not say you did!

And I didn't accuse you of anything.

And I did not say you did!

Getting awfully defensive, aren't we?

I merely pointed out the facts of your proposed actions.

Oh, am I proposing actions now?

You're the one

... Who Is Awesome. Exactly!

[MattRay]

The plans for mass deportation are unquestionably a terrible idea because you can imagine the violations of civil liberties as well as the fact that the belief that government would succeed at that of all things is laughable. I am conflicted overall because economically speaking, I don't like the idea of reducing the labor force, especially in times like these. Such sentiments for economic purposes are misguided, Bernie Sanders type logic. But the welfare state just throws everything off. Regardless of whether they're coming here for welfare, most will be low-income residents and will easily qualify for multiple forms of welfare. I do think people coming here for jobs is unquestionably a good thing, and I agree, that jobs and higher standard of living are the primary reasons the vast majority come here, but I don't think most are coming here to escape welfare either and would vote against it or turn it down.

[helmuth_hubener]

The plans for mass deportation are unquestionably a terrible idea.

What if it were a mass voluntary deportation? Would that still be a "terrible idea"?

By the way, as the title of this thread shows: Ron Paul believes that illegal immigration is a problem. And he believes that it deserves to be solved and needs to be solved. He believes he has come up with a way to do it that does not violate libertarian principles: eliminate incentives from the government.

Likely that will not be enough, not nearly enough, America is too rich and attractive even without welfare, but it would be a good start and would do some good.

[CaptUSA]

Likely that will not be enough, not nearly enough, America is too rich and attractive even without welfare, but it would be a good start and would do some good.

Yeah, I'm more than willing to "put up" with immigrants that are attracted to America because of our wealth, free markets and liberty. Eliminating the welfare state for all eliminates the incentives for those who come for other reasons.

Do what Ron Paul suggests and the rest of the problems go away.