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Thread: Gary Johnson: Trump's a Fascist

  1. #1
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    Gary Johnson: Trump's a Fascist

    Gary doesn't even know what the word means. If you want to attack Trump, please use the correct terminology. Or maybe send an email and politely ask Thomas Woods for the true definition of fascism.

    http://www.infowars.com/gary-johnson-trumps-a-fascist/

    Libertarian presidential nominee Gary Johnson says he considers Donald Trump a fascist.

    “It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck,” Johnson told The New York Times on Tuesday. “Where’s the Constitution in all this? He’s saying horrible things.”


    Wait a second? That kinda sounds like the CO2 tax that you recently proposed.

    FYI

    Tom Woods talks with Paul Gottfried about Fascism and it's rampant misuse. It is not an applicable synonym for something you 'really really dislike':

    Last edited by AuH20; 08-24-2016 at 01:42 PM.



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  3. #2
    It's a big club! The US government certainly is, and a majority of Americans are too.

    Nothing Outside the State
    http://blog.independent.org/2010/03/...ide-the-state/

    The areas of life that remain outside the government’s participation, taxation, subsidization, regulation, surveillance, and other intrusion or control have become so few and so trivial that they scarcely merit mention. We verge ever closer upon the condition in which everything that is not prohibited is required. Yet, the average American will declare loudly that he is a free man and that his country is the freest in the world. Thus, in a country where more and more is for the state, where virtually nothing is outside the State, and where, aside from pointless complaints, nothing against the State is permitted, Americans have become ideal fascist citizens. Like the average German during the years that Hitler ruled Germany, most Americans today, inhabiting one of the most pervasively controlled countries in the history of the world, think they are free.
    Once More, with Feeling: Our System Is Not Socialism, but Participatory Fascism
    http://blog.independent.org/2012/10/...atory-fascism/

    Americans do not like to admit that they live in a system that is most accurately characterized as participatory fascism. They insist that fascism requires death camps, goose-stepping brown shirts, comical yet murderous leaders in funny hats, and others hallmarks of the fascism that operated in Germany and Italy between the world wars. But fascism takes many specific forms. If you wish to see the form that it has increasingly taken in the economically advanced countries during the past century, just look around you.
    Quote of the day from John T. Flynn
    http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.4833.7

    "The test of fascism is not one's rage against the Italian and German war lords. The test is — how many of the essential principles of fascism do you accept and to what extent are you prepared to apply those fascist ideas to American social and economic life? When you can put your finger on the men or the groups that urge for America the debt-supported state, the autarkical corporative state, the state bent on the socialization of investment and the bureaucratic government of industry and society, the establishment of the institution of militarism as the great glamorous public-works project of the nation and the institution of imperialism under which it proposes to regulate and rule the world and, along with this, proposes to alter the forms of our government to approach as closely as possible the unrestrained, absolute government — then you will know you have located the authentic fascist." [...]
    -- John T. Flynn, As We Go Marching, 1944
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Gary doesn't even know what the word means. If you want to attack Trump, please use the correct terminology.

    http://quotes.lifehack.org/media/quo...ism-204204.png

    [...]
    About that quote: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5306173
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  5. #4
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  6. #5
    Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature, and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.
    Now tell me which part of the above doesn't sound like Trump? He wants to bomb ISIS to save the country doesn't he? He believes he can save the economy himself doesn't he?

    Sounds like you are the one that doesn't know what the word means. Then again, you are a Trump supporter so it goes without saying....

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
    A sense of danger gives birth to fear. And fear is the time-honored cross for the crucifixion of liberty.

  7. #6
    Gary Johnson has been falling for the same traps Rand did in the primary. He can't just say hey look at that guy he is a phoney, he doesn't have any clothes on. You either got to play along with his shenanigans, or explain to people that their perception of Trump is an illusion. This just makes me think that Gary Johnson is clueless or "in" on it. This just screams pay no attention to the man behind the curtain because he is basically making fun of some projection that people will not perceive as real because it won't fit in their paradigm.

  8. #7
    Wanting to use Exxon to "take the oil" is a dead giveaway.
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by CPUd View Post
    Benito favors Obama more .



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  11. #9
    Trump's not a fascist. I sometimes wonder if GJ's secretly on Hillary's payroll.

  12. #10
    And Gary Johnson is a fiscally moderate social progressive.

  13. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
    It's a big club! The US government certainly is, and a majority of Americans are too.

    Nothing Outside the State
    http://blog.independent.org/2010/03/...ide-the-state/



    Once More, with Feeling: Our System Is Not Socialism, but Participatory Fascism
    http://blog.independent.org/2012/10/...atory-fascism/



    Quote of the day from John T. Flynn
    http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.4833.7
    The political dialogue in this country has reduced itself to simple catch phrases, whether it's 'racist', 'fascist' or 'Hitlerian.' LOL When you have neocons like Max Boot declaring Trump to be a fascist, you just have to shake your head. It's all about firing first and asking questions later. Strangely enough, the public falls for these word games more often than not.

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    The Washington Post covered this topic months ago after Boot mouthed off:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ump-a-fascist/

    "Fascist" is often used as a cheap, meaningless insult in U.S. politics. But recently, it's become a serious charge that elected officials, political operatives and pundits on both sides of the aisle have lobbed at GOP presidential front-runner Donald Trump.

    After Trump suggested he'd back a federal registry for Muslims residents, Wall Street Journal conservative columnist Bret Stephens called the idea "fascism, plain and simple." Recounting Trump’s passive responses to violence committed by his supporters, CNN commentator Sally Kohn said on Wednesday, “There’s a word for this: fascism.”

    Some of Trump's rhetoric does invoke the tyrannical speeches of fascist leaders of the past. Asked about his plans to track American Muslims, Trump ominously told Yahoo News last month, "Certain things will be done that we never thought would happen in this country."

    But the key aspects of fascism are at odds with Trump's persona and his message. For all his bluster, a President Trump wouldn't pursue the authoritarian, collectivist agenda that characterized Germany's Nazi Party and Italy's Benito Mussolini, at least not according to what he's said so far about his political views. Calling Trump a fascist risks misleading voters about his agenda, which is not that much different from that of his rivals for the GOP presidential nod.

    These are just a few of the major differences between Trump and the fascists of history:

    1. Trump’s message is individualist

    One common characteristic of fascist regimes was their insistence on collective rather than individual identity. Fascist leaders believed the life of the nation as a whole took precedence over the lives of the people who made it up, imposing a brutal uniformity on the lives of their citizens.

    "The Italian nation is an organism, having aims, life and means of action superior to those of the single or grouped individuals who compose it," stated Mussolini's Labor Charter in 1927.

    That vision of a unified state conflicted with the complicated reality of European countries, which diverse religious, racial and ethnic communities called home. Fascist leaders tried to eliminate these differences. Members of disfavored groups lost their legal identities, rights and citizenship — if not their lives. Even favored groups were subjected to oppressive discipline.

    Under Mussolini, for instance, every Italian schoolchild was required to join a youth organization where they imbibed fascist propaganda and militaristic training. Teachers swore an oath to the fascist regime. The party took over sports, such as bocce, which were transformed from a form of casual recreation into a means for the Italian nation to improve and excel.

    Like Trump, these leaders gained followers by giving long, angry speeches that blamed the country's problems on foreigners. They addressed their rhetoric to a frustrated middle class, describing them as victims of internal and external enemies.

    In this way, some of the conditions that allow fascist ideology to take hold exist in the United States, said Robert Paxton, a leading American scholar of fascism. Americans' belief that hard work brings material rewards has prevented radical movements and politicians from taking power, he said. For the past 15 years, however, income for the typical household has declined, leading some Americans to lose confidence in the existing political system.

    "A sense of victimhood is absolutely essential" to the rise of fascism, Paxton said, "and I think that's very strong in America today."

    Trump, though, is not a fascist, according to Paxton. The candidate's message lacks the collectivist element that was common to many fascist regimes. Individual ambition is a crucial part of the story he tells voters about himself as a successful, self-interested businessman.

    2. Trump doesn’t oppose democracy

    Trump also does not oppose constitutional government and representative democracy, another crucial trait of historical fascists. The militaristic societies they formed couldn’t tolerate dissent and debate. Differences of opinion contradict the fascist idea of a collective identity.

    The Nazi philosopher Carl Schmitt, for instance, contended that parliaments couldn't truly represent the will of a united people, only various opposed factions. Instead, Schmitt wrote, a dictator would speak on the people's behalf with one voice.


    Fascist leaders threw out existing national constitutions, replacing representative government with dictatorships that brutally suppressed dissent. They used paramilitary organizations to intimidate their political opponents.

    Trump recently defended the behavior of supporters who assaulted a protester at one of his rallies, saying “Maybe he should have been roughed up.” But that’s still a far cry from the mass suppression of dissent typical of fascist movements and regimes. Trump isn’t supporting a systematic campaign of intimidation. And he hasn't called for suspending the U.S. Constitution or pledged to arrogate legislative power to himself if he wins the presidency.

    3. Trump doesn't support a fascist welfare state

    The platforms of fascist parties were fiercely anti-capitalist. In 1920, the Nazi Party's Twenty-Five Points, for instance called for the confiscation of income from capital gains, the nationalization of industries and "an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare."

    Once in power, fascists typically collaborated with the economic elite to achieve their military aims, and they banned unions independent of the party. But their written principles certainly would have affronted Trump’s capitalist ideals.

    Trump is somewhat more liberal on economic issues than some of his competitors for the GOP nod. He opposes reductions in Social Security, for example. In general, though, Trump boasts about being a wealthy businessman, and his tax proposals are typical of the Republican Party — he'd substantially reduce taxes for the rich.

    4. Trump’s positions are similar to other GOP candidates

    Trump's rhetoric is extreme and colorful, but on taxes and other issues, his platform is similar in substance to those of his GOP rivals and in accord with the opinions of rank-and-file Republicans. Calling Trump a fascist suggests there's something special about him that distinguishes him from the rest of the party.

    For example, many of the GOP candidates criticized Trump for proposing a registry for Muslims, but fellow candidate Ben Carson's proposal went even further: a database that would not discriminate against Muslims explicitly but would instead include every single person in the country.

    Likewise, when Trump suggested that law enforcement should close certain mosques to prevent Islamist terrorism, Rubio suggested that Trump's proposal wasn't broad enough. "It's not about closing down mosques. It's about closing down any place, whether it's a cafe, a diner, an Internet site, any place where radicals are being inspired," he told Megyn Kelly of Fox News.

    On other issues, such as abortion, climate change, and monetary policy, Trump's opinions are also in line with his party. While his presentation may be unusual for a U.S. presidential candidate, his policies are not. Trump is a Republican, not a fascist.
    Last edited by AuH20; 08-24-2016 at 04:26 PM.

  15. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotAnIllegalImmigrant View Post
    And Gary Johnson is a fiscally moderate social progressive.
    I think he's more of a 'selective' libertarian. He's not a progressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Gary Johnson has been falling for the same traps Rand did in the primary. He can't just say hey look at that guy he is a phoney, he doesn't have any clothes on. You either got to play along with his shenanigans, or explain to people that their perception of Trump is an illusion. This just makes me think that Gary Johnson is clueless or "in" on it. This just screams pay no attention to the man behind the curtain because he is basically making fun of some projection that people will not perceive as real because it won't fit in their paradigm.
    Good point. If Gary Johnson called him opportunistic or a Johnny Come Lately, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The Fascist stuff just makes him appear more like another run-of-the-mill politician. It's being intellectually disingenuous and lazy for the scoring of cheap political points.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Gary doesn't even know what the word means. If you want to attack Trump, please use the correct terminology. Or maybe send an email and politely ask Thomas Woods for the true definition of fascism.

    http://www.infowars.com/gary-johnson-trumps-a-fascist/





    Wait a second? That kinda sounds like the CO2 tax that you recently proposed.

    FYI

    Tom Woods talks with Paul Gottfried about Fascism and it's rampant misuse. It is not an applicable synonym for something you 'really really dislike':

    Ummmmm.....so you don't think that Trump's belief that the government forcing you to sell your home to a corporation is corporatism? By the definition of fascism that you posted, Donald Trump is an unrepentant fascist. That said, Gary Johnson is sounding almost socialist these days.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #16
    Understanding Fascism: Collectivism vs. Individual Rights




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  20. #17
    Actually, if fascism is socialism with a sugar coating of capitalism, then Johnson would be the real fascist.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Actually, if fascism is socialism with a sugar coating of capitalism, then Johnson would be the real fascist.
    If you look at some of the proposed policies that Gary Johnson espouses, the word Fascist would apply. The Libertarian Party ought to be ashamed of themselves for nominating him given the things he said in their debates.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Understanding Fascism: Collectivism vs. Individual Rights

    ON. THE. NOSE.

    We should all be continually listening to guys like Ben and electing men like him into office.
    There is no spoon.

  23. #20
    Fascism is highly interventionist economic policy coupled with nationalism.

    That fits Trump to a T.

    Though it's not like he's unique in this respect, at least on the economic policy front.

    The bipartisan consensus on economic policy in the US has been fascistic since the New Deal.

    ...which was virtually indistinguishable from the economic policies of 1930s Italy/Germany.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    I think he's more of a 'selective' libertarian. He's not a progressive.
    Really? He supports quite a few progressive causes:

    - Federalizing homosexual marriage
    - Federalizing legal abortion (He now says that PP v Casey shouldn't be overruled)
    - "It the federal government's job to prevent discrimination in all cases"
    - Supports a carbon tax...Sorry, I mean "fee"
    - Supports smoking bans in private restaurants
    - Supports forcing religious entities to supply birth control against their beliefs
    Last edited by NotAnIllegalImmigrant; 08-25-2016 at 09:14 AM.

  25. #22
    Every time Johnson opens his mouth he says one more thing that is anti-liberty. Some people think he is 90% Libertarian. I think his own words say that he is nothing like a Libertarian.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  26. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotAnIllegalImmigrant View Post
    Really? He supports quite a few progressive causes:

    - Federalizing homosexual marriage
    - Federalizing legal abortion (He now says that PP v Casey shouldn't be overruled)
    - "It the federal government's job to prevent discrimination in all cases"
    - Supports a carbon tax...Sorry, I mean "fee"
    - Supports smoking bans in private restaurants
    - Supports forcing religious entities to supply birth control against their beliefs
    All true, but a real progressive would not want to dismantle the government like Johnson. I think Johnson is disappointing, but I'm not sure he can be classified as a progressive.

  27. #24
    Johnson does not want to dismantle government . He wants to expand some parts of it, but only the parts he considers legitimate.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    All true, but a real progressive would not want to dismantle the government like Johnson. I think Johnson is disappointing, but I'm not sure he can be classified as a progressive.
    Well put. +rep
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  30. #26
    It should be abundantly clear to all by now that the LP in the Johnson/Weld era has been reduced to being mere attack dogs for Hillary.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by sgt150 View Post
    It should be abundantly clear to all by now that the LP in the Johnson/Weld era has been reduced to being mere attack dogs for Hillary.
    If so, apparently not intentionally. They take more votes from Hillary than they do trump.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  32. #28
    This is the most disappointing election cycle, ever.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Actually, if fascism is socialism with a sugar coating of capitalism, then Johnson would be the real fascist.
    Ummmm....okay. I've never heard fascism described that way but okay. Fascism is the government violating your property rights for the sake of corporations. Socialism is the government violating your property rights for the sake of the masses. Neither Gary Johnson nor Donald Trump support property rights so neither is really worthy of support of people who are first and foremost pro liberty. And of course Hillary Clinton is just a straight up traitor at this point with her selling U.S. State Department access to the highest bidder even when the bidder is a foreign entity. All three of the top presidential candidates suck this go round. Shame on the Libertarian Party for choosing such a crappy nominee just because he's well known. Shame on the GOP for choosing such a crappy nominee just because he used bombastic anti-immigrant language that he's now backed off from somewhat. And shame on the Democratic Party for choosing such a crappy nominee just because she has a vagina. Darryl Castle FTW! Okay. He's not going to win. Darryl Castle FTP! (For the principles.) Principles matter.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    All true, but a real progressive would not want to dismantle the government like Johnson. I think Johnson is disappointing, but I'm not sure he can be classified as a progressive.
    How can someone who wants a carbon tax also want to dismantle the government? Who does Johnson expect will enforce the carbon tax? The U.N.?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

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