New handgun vs. used

[cbc58]

Would it be correct to assume that if you find a gently used handgun, that it's just as good as a new one? Or possibly even better since it's been broken-in a little? Understand the warranty transfer might be an issue.

[Root]

I've bought 1 rifle and one handgun used. No issues, got great deals on both.

[presence]

Armed Agorism: How To Acquire Weapons In the Black and Grey Markets

TCRN
July 7, 2016


Armed Agorism: A three part series about obtaining and owning firearms through the Grey Market by guest contributor Atreidies. If you would like more background on Agorism, Black and Grey markets check this video. Please follow the advice in the article at your own risk.

Buying firearms is a potentially risky endeavor. If you are reading this article at the original source, you probably already understand that there is a defacto registration system in place on the federal level. This is not supposed to be the case, but most people wouldn’t doubt the inability of the federal government to let go of a voluntary data collection system that by law requires a purge after 24 hours, especially regarding something as potentially dangerous to their power structure as firearms in the hands of ordinary citizens.

When buying from a federally licensed dealer (FFL), the purchaser fills out a form (4473) and the data collected on that form is either called in or entered electronically to check against a state or federal database, and the government decides if you can exercise your natural right to self-defense, or your enumerated and (supposedly) constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. The law requires that this data be purged every 24 hours, and the reality is that this is likely true. HOWEVER, it’s highly likely that the names and unique identifying information provided (SS Number, DOB, etc.) are added to a list of gun owners. There are ways to avoid having more “hits” on that list, or if you’ve never bought a gun through a licensed dealer, to never make it on the list in the first place.

The 4473’s are kept on file for 25 years or longer with the FFL, even if they go out of business. If the ATF or any other agency does a trace on a gun, they will go to the manufacturer, which will eventually lead them to the FFL that did the original sale and has the 4473 on file. If it is your name on the form, it is your door they will be knocking on. This is why private transfers are a great Grey Market solution, because they are essentially a dead end for the investigator.

Private transfers happen between two individuals, without the FFL process. The seller can be an FFL selling from his private collection. Some states require private transactions to go through an FFL, so purchases in these states should be avoided. There are several avenues to find a seller, which I will discuss later. More importantly, there are some things to avoid when buying from private individuals.

First, don’t use a social media account that is traceable to your real identity. Second, don’t provide your state of residence if you are buying out of state. Third, don’t mention that you are ineligible to possess a firearm if you are ineligible. It is a federal crime for an individual to KNOWINGLY sell to someone who resides out of state, or is ineligible. If you don’t tell them, they won’t know, and you aren’t causing them to run afoul of the law without their consent. Most won’t ask, and if they do, just drop all contact and move on. Giving false information can trap you in a setup. As a seller, if a buyer ever tells you they are from out of state or that they are ineligible, DO NOT SELL THEM THE FIREARM. This is potentially a setup, so just halt the transaction and walk. Maybe they’re just ignorant of the law, but you don’t want to take the chance.




Many private sellers will ask for a Bill of Sale or a B.O.S. in their listings. A Bill of Sale is simply a record of the transaction. It is not filed anywhere, is not reported to any agency, and is not admissible in court as long as it is not notarized at the time of the transaction. If you decide to fill out a bill of sale, you can choose to provide false information. The desire for privacy is reason enough to provide false info. If the seller asks to see your I.D. to verify, you can tell them you are not comfortable with it for that same reason. If they insist, you can walk away. To be honest, I have purchased from people requesting one, but they end up not requiring it when the deal goes down, or they just handed it to me to fill out with no verification. Most sellers only ask as a CYA, but they also understand that it provides no protection from the Jack Boots when they come knocking. If you are ineligible to own a firearm legally, DO NOT FILL OUT A BILL OF SALE. Ever.

Seriously, you’re better off buying a burner phone with three bodies on it. I mean, if you get caught with it, you’re SOL regardless. Don’t give them a paper trail to come and find you. As a seller, you have NO OBLIGATION to ask for a BOS. You have NO OBLIGATION to know to whom you sold the firearm. “I sold it” is all any agency needs to know.
California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington and Washington D.C. all require background checks for all sales, even between two individuals. Maryland and Pennsylvania do as well, but only for handguns. Some states also require a permit to purchase, even private transfers, and those require a background check as well. Every other state has no regulation on private sales. Those are the states you want to buy from in order to stay completely off radar.

http://theconsciousresistance.com/20...-gray-markets/

[Anti Federalist]

Would it be correct to assume that if you find a gently used handgun, that it's just as good as a new one? Or possibly even better since it's been broken-in a little? Understand the warranty transfer might be an issue.

If it's well known, high quality weapon, yes, that is correct.

[pcosmar]

Would it be correct to assume that if you find a gently used handgun, that it's just as good as a new one? Or possibly even better since it's been broken-in a little? Understand the warranty transfer might be an issue.

I got educated in Tony's gun shop as a child,, going through the used guns in the shop.
Tony taught me things to check and look for.

I bought my first from him.
A good gun is a good gun. A good price is even better.

nothing inherently wrong with being used,, except in the mind of the buyer.

[phill4paul]

I got educated in Tony's gun shop as a child,, going through the used guns in the shop.
Tony taught me things to check and look for.

I bought my first from him.
A good gun is a good gun. A good price is even better.

nothing inherently wrong with being used,, except in the mind of the buyer.

Well, c'mon, out with it, already.

I was taught to look at rifling wear, pin wear, to check the action (spring wear), if a revolver, barrel/cylinder alignment, trigger pull and to look for any "home made" modification (filed iron sights, stripped screws).

[pcosmar]

Well, c'mon, out with it, already.

I was taught to look at rifling wear, pin wear, to check the action (spring wear), if a revolver, barrel/cylinder alignment, trigger pull and to look for any "home made" modification (filed iron sights, stripped screws).

All of the above,, cracked stocks are an issue,, but blueing is not..
Prioritize..

you can find fine guns that are worn or were abused.. if they are mechanically sound,, the appearance can be addressed later.

you can also find what "fits' you, by handling many.

[phill4paul]

All of the above,, cracked stocks are an issue,, but blueing is not..
Prioritize..

you can find fine guns that are worn or were abused.. if they are mechanically sound,, the appearance can be addressed later.

you can also find what "fits' you, by handling many.

This, perhaps, the best advise. Before you go into any of the issues we wrote a particular tool must be chosen.

[oyarde]

Would it be correct to assume that if you find a gently used handgun, that it's just as good as a new one? Or possibly even better since it's been broken-in a little? Understand the warranty transfer might be an issue.

I prefer used . In my state , no paper trail .

[Intoxiklown]

Would it be correct to assume that if you find a gently used handgun, that it's just as good as a new one? Or possibly even better since it's been broken-in a little? Understand the warranty transfer might be an issue.

Depends on a lot of things, as addressed in all replies.

What company made the used gun? Reason I ask, is a lot of companies will repair a firearm of their's for an owner, regardless of prior owners or not. An easy way to answer your question is to ask them roughly how many rounds through the firearm. An avid shooter can easily put 50k+ rounds a year through a gun, but that is becoming rare to see nowadays with ammo prices. I wouldn't be scared to buy any gun that had less then 10k through it. And depending on what brand, some 25k wouldn't scare me.

But, if it's a high compression round weapon (.40, .357 Sig, 10mm), with more than 15k rounds through it, either avoid it, or use that as a way to barter down price.

[cbc58]

How about 9mm ammo? What is the best to buy if you want to use it for target practice and have it to ward off swarms of attacking zombies?

[fisharmor]

Zombie guns are for tactitards.
Don't be a tactitard.
All they do is create artificial demand for guns of little actual value... well, of no demonstraable value over less expensive non-tactitard versions.

I have a friend who bought a tactitarded 10/22 some years ago. He brought it to the range once, and kind of liked it, until he tried to clean it. The tactitard stuff made a field strip take an hour. It's the 21st century. A manufacturer better have a damned good reason for a field strip to rake more than 30 seconds.

I briefly owned a tactitarded Mossberg 500. The pistol grip totally broke the gun. It still technically worked... the point is when the pistol grip is attached basic functions of the gun, like slide release and safety operation, become operations that either require two hands or require you to take your right hand off thr pistol grip.

So naturally my first advice when seeking ammo, just like with everything else with guns, is stop talking about zombies. It's not a video game.

Sorry if that seems harsh, but if you're new to guns it should get crushed early, before you have spent a couple grand on useless $#@!.

To answer the question, full metal jacket 9mm rounds are going to be the least expensive range ammo, generally. They are no less deadly than the standard ammo used by almost every military in the world. More expensive expanding ammo is more damaging. But there are not just physical damage considerations. Not only might your 9mm weapon not cycle properly with certain types of ammo, but you might live in a state where using extra lethal ammo will land you in even more trouble with state prosecutors.

My advice would be to take an NRA pistol course (the ONLY thing the NRA is good for), shoot a bunch of pistols, shoot a bunch of different types of ammo, and go from there.

[oyarde]

How about 9mm ammo? What is the best to buy if you want to use it for target practice and have it to ward off swarms of attacking zombies?

I buy mine @ the farm store when they run it on sale . I keep my empties and give them to my buddy who reloads and he gives me some rounds in return.

[Intoxiklown]

How about 9mm ammo? What is the best to buy if you want to use it for target practice and have it to ward off swarms of attacking zombies?

Don't get sucked into buying the newest "self defense" ammo. Modern ballistics have made all ammo so close in performance, everything is all capable. Modern ballistics have made the .380 a VERY solid self defense round, for example.

And hardball is both cheap, and deadly. As Oyarde mentioned, look into reloads. If you can't, or don't have access, there are companies online that sell reload ammo cheap and of high quality.

[osan]

Would it be correct to assume that if you find a gently used handgun, that it's just as good as a new one? Or possibly even better since it's been broken-in a little? Understand the warranty transfer might be an issue.

Yes.

[osan]

I prefer used . In my state , no paper trail .

Yes. To that same end, we have finished about half a dozen 80% lowers. In fact, I have an SBR in 338 Spectre sitting right here next to me. No numbers, completely untraceable.

Neeners.

[osan]

Don't get sucked into buying the newest "self defense" ammo. Modern ballistics have made all ammo so close in performance, everything is all capable. Modern ballistics have made the .380 a VERY solid self defense round, for example.

And hardball is both cheap, and deadly. As Oyarde mentioned, look into reloads. If you can't, or don't have access, there are companies online that sell reload ammo cheap and of high quality.

While I agree that getting shot with anything is potentially life-threatening, I would vary a bit with you on ammo for one's carry gun.

I shoot a fair amount of practice ammo - hand-cast .40, .45, 9mm, and so forth. But that it not what feeds my carry guns. I load Hornady Critical Duty, Cor-Bon, and Federal HSTs in my daily carry guns, which are a 4" 686, P220, and an xD subcompact.

My good friend loads 40 Smith "long". He put a 40 Smith barrel in his 10mm race gun. The hand - loads are absolutely brutal - 135gr @ 1580. This is VERY hard on the gun, but in a self-defense situation, the gun's health is secondary to one's own and I am a firm believer in the fewer rounds expended to get the job done, the better. So my approach to such a thing is to practice with lots of dummy ammo, but enough of the real stuff to know what it is you have on hand so you can hit the broad side of a barn. Then load the mean stuff in preparation for that day.

Now, if you can afford new parts or whole new guns, then shoot the hard stuff often.

[fedupinmo]

Don't get sucked into buying the newest "self defense" ammo. Modern ballistics have made all ammo so close in performance, everything is all capable. Modern ballistics have made the .380 a VERY solid self defense round, for example.

And hardball is both cheap, and deadly. As Oyarde mentioned, look into reloads. If you can't, or don't have access, there are companies online that sell reload ammo cheap and of high quality.

The point of self defense ammo is immediate incapacitation; ending the threat, right now.
If that hard ball just makes a tiny hole all the way through, the threat could have 30 seconds or more to continue to threaten you, unless you hit in a much smaller area that would be more vital like the head or heart.
That expanding bullet is intended to cause more trauma so that fewer shots and wider areas do the job.

[Intoxiklown]

While I agree that getting shot with anything is potentially life-threatening, I would vary a bit with you on ammo for one's carry gun.

I shoot a fair amount of practice ammo - hand-cast .40, .45, 9mm, and so forth. But that it not what feeds my carry guns. I load Hornady Critical Duty, Cor-Bon, and Federal HSTs in my daily carry guns, which are a 4" 686, P220, and an xD subcompact.

My good friend loads 40 Smith "long". He put a 40 Smith barrel in his 10mm race gun. The hand - loads are absolutely brutal - 135gr @ 1580. This is VERY hard on the gun, but in a self-defense situation, the gun's health is secondary to one's own and I am a firm believer in the fewer rounds expended to get the job done, the better. So my approach to such a thing is to practice with lots of dummy ammo, but enough of the real stuff to know what it is you have on hand so you can hit the broad side of a barn. Then load the mean stuff in preparation for that day.

Now, if you can afford new parts or whole new guns, then shoot the hard stuff often.

Oh, I don't mean to imply all are created equal. I load hydra-shocks in all my pistols (glove compartment, carry, ect). Simply trying toease cbc58's worry about reliable ammo covering both performance and price. Key word price.

And don't you just love the 686?

LOL

I have a 686 no dash Classic Hunter (6" barrel) that I don't leave the house witout it on my hip. My wife even liked it so much, she bought herself a 4". I'm like you in that I have a lot of options for pistols I coud carry, but that .357 is just hard to beat.

[Intoxiklown]

The point of self defense ammo is immediate incapacitation; ending the threat, right now.
If that hard ball just makes a tiny hole all the way through, the threat could have 30 seconds or more to continue to threaten you, unless you hit in a much smaller area that would be more vital like the head or heart.
That expanding bullet is intended to cause more trauma so that fewer shots and wider areas do the job.

Like I responded to Osan, I was speaking to his concern of both performance AND price. While I do agree, and carry hydra-shocks as well, the main factor one should really look for in their pistol round is kinetic energy if wanting to reaaly address self defense. That's why out of my 9mm's, .45ACP's, .380's, .44's (Beretta, Kimber, CZ, Smith & Wesson, Colt, Rossi....I have a gun collection that'd make you spiritually erect) I carry a .357 magnum.

[osan]

Oh, I don't mean to imply all are created equal. I load hydra-shocks in all my pistols (glove compartment, carry, ect). Simply trying toease cbc58's worry about reliable ammo covering both performance and price. Key word price.

And don't you just love the 686?

LOL

I have a 686 no dash Classic Hunter (6" barrel) that I don't leave the house witout it on my hip. My wife even liked it so much, she bought herself a 4". I'm like you in that I have a lot of options for pistols I coud carry, but that .357 is just hard to beat.

I had a phenomenal S&W PPC gun in 38 Super. This thing would shoot single-hole groups from a machine rest at 100 yd., no $#@!. I sold it in desperation for cash back in 2009, a decision I sorely regret to this day. Properly loaded, 38 super gives ballistics effectively identical to 357. It is a great round, if a bit hard on the gun.

[oyarde]

I saw an ad for CCI in Game & Fish magazine for .357 rounds loaded with #4 shot , said also in 9 MM , anyone try any of these ?