VP Choice Pence Reaffirms Israel Devotion

[hells_unicorn]

Zionism is the reason our foreign policy is so messed up. Wake up. Why do you think the Israel lobby pushes so hard for intervention in the Middle East, and its destabilization, if not for Israel?

Not disagreeing with you, it's just at this stage of the game nobody cares anymore. The Middle East is completely destabilized now, and the negative consequences of it are walking among all of us. At this stage of the game, the issue is Islam, and it will continue to be Islam until it is relegated back to the part of the world where it belongs. After that happens and we aren't having people being beheaded during church services, then the Israel lobby can be dealt with.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm saying that it doesn't matter that you are right, not in a practical sense anyway.

[P3ter_Griffin]

I won't challenge you on that. You are correct. But perhaps that is what is necessary to awaken the anti War Left from its coma. As long as a Democrat is in power, the Left will not care so much about the Israel/Palestine issue. The Alt Right will gradually shift opinion toward Israel on the right. They may not oppose Israel's behavior, but they totally see through the hypocrisy of Israel's supporters calling for open borders here but not for Israel and for failing to oppose Israeli immigration laws that allow virtually no non Jews to become citizens of Israel.

I think that's about all you need to say about the 'antiwar' left. They can GFTS for all I care.

It's a little to early to talk about 'what will happen when trump becomes prez' IMO... but I do think this will be an interesting issue if/when it comes closer to that time. As far as I can tell (which trust me... isn't saying much) Iran may be the last ME nation that needs to be flipped to a pro-western aligned government... not including Syria which is in no state to intervene outside its borders... and they (US and Israel) would be able to neuter Hezbollah and Hamas by taking out Iran... leaving Israel in a pretty good position for 'negotiations'.

[AtlantaIconoclast]

Not disagreeing with you, it's just at this stage of the game nobody cares anymore. The Middle East is completely destabilized now, and the negative consequences of it are walking among all of us. At this stage of the game, the issue is Islam, and it will continue to be Islam until it is relegated back to the part of the world where it belongs. After that happens and we aren't having people being beheaded during church services, then the Israel lobby can be dealt with.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm saying that it doesn't matter that you are right, not in a practical sense anyway.

I think one can oppose the Israel Lobby AND oppose massive Muslim immigration AND oppose the arming of Islamic savages by the West, Israel, Turkey, and the Gulf States against secular Arab regimes.

[erowe1]

I do not hate "the Jews." An anti Semite is just someone a Jew hates. Doesn't mean the anti Semite hates Jews. Just that a Jew somewhere finds the person "anti Semitic," even as they oppress Arab Semites in Palestine.

I notice that "Jews" is the antecedent of the pronoun "they" in your last sentence.

Because simply being a Jew is all the proof anyone should need that the person oppresses Arab Semites in Palestine.

[parocks]

That Sheldon Addelson sent Cruz away for not endorsing Trump is a pretty good sign as well. Trump and his compatriots jabber jawing about Iran is a pretty good sign. Would any Trumpsters like to debate me that Trump is not going to be an isreal-firster?

Well, what happens is that they all end up Israel-firsters, right? We're arguing about whether or not we can look at what he says and at least pretend that we might cut down on the wars in the Middle East. It's plausible enough to think that he might cut down on the wars in the Middle East a bit. He has no record at all, so we really don't know at all what he'd do. Typically, they're all bribed, blackmailed or whatever, by Israel. Maybe Trumps not. Most politicians are bribed or blackmailed by Israel these days. You'd want that not to be the case, but you just don't get that. Romney worked with Netanyahu in the 70s. They were good friends. Trump doesn't have anything like that to point to. Someone is going to be President. Hillary is just heinous. It should be apparent that Hillary's long criminal march is not what we want.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Well, what happens is that they all end up Israel-firsters, right? We're arguing about whether or not we can look at what he says and at least pretend that we might cut down on the wars in the Middle East. It's plausible enough to think that he might cut down on the wars in the Middle East a bit. He has no record at all, so we really don't know at all what he'd do. Typically, they're all bribed, blackmailed or whatever, by Israel. Maybe Trumps not. Most politicians are bribed or blackmailed by Israel these days. You'd want that not to be the case, but you just don't get that. Romney worked with Netanyahu in the 70s. They were good friends. Trump doesn't have anything like that to point to. Someone is going to be President. Hillary is just heinous. It should be apparent that Hillary's long criminal march is not what we want.

That is why principles are so much more important than the 'feels' or the desire to be elected. (in reference to you first sentence)

I need to do more research to have an informed conversation on the ME. Is it worthy of a pat on the back, though, that an individual is only going to kill one individual, when that one individual is the last individual alive?



IMO Trump is just a continuation of what we got. He just saw an avenue that would make him appear as if he is not. He saw the public angst for more war, so he 'condemned' the wars in order to finalize the plan that has been put into action.

[AtlantaIconoclast]

I notice that "Jews" is the antecedent of the pronoun "they" in your last sentence.

Because simply being a Jew is all the proof anyone should need that the person oppresses Arab Semites in Palestine.

Well certainly, not all Jews support the oppression of Palestinians, but clearly, a majority of Israelis and American Jewish Zionists do. You got a problem with me calling them out? If you do, then you must think Jews are better than others and have some privilege that exempts them from scrutiny.

If you want Jewish voices against Zionism, look no further than Mondoweiss.

[erowe1]

Well certainly, not all Jews support the oppression of Palestinians, but clearly, a majority of Israelis and American Jewish Zionists do. You got a problem with me calling them out? If you do, then you must think Jews are better than others and have some privilege that exempts them from scrutiny.

If you want Jewish voices against Zionism, look no further than Mondoweiss.

First, I'm not sure if it's true that a majority of Israelis and American Jewish Zionists do. Neither of those groups are monolithic. They have many different views about how do deal with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Second, those were't who you called out. You accused "Jews" in general. Yes, I have a problem with it.

[openfire]

First, I'm not sure if it's true that a majority of Israelis and American Jewish Zionists do. Neither of those groups are monolithic. They have many different views about how do deal with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Second, those were't who you called out. You accused "Jews" in general. Yes, I have a problem with it.

He called out "Jews" in "general" because they "generally" don't oppose the oppression of Palestinians. But he did clarify who he was referring to specifically. What do you have a problem with exactly?

[AtlantaIconoclast]

First, I'm not sure if it's true that a majority of Israelis and American Jewish Zionists do. Neither of those groups are monolithic. They have many different views about how do deal with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Second, those were't who you called out. You accused "Jews" in general. Yes, I have a problem with it.

No I didn't. The "they" referred specifically to Jews who reflexively label Israel's and organized Jewry's critics as "anti Semitic." Jesus Christ, our society simply does not allow any subset of Jews to be called out for their sins. I never said all Jews, but the avg. Zionist is not stupid. He or she knows that the occupation and Jewish privilege in Israel/Palestine is real, even if they use words like "disputed."

And I guess you didn't notice that I shared the name of a an anti Zionist website , owned and run by a Jewish man, Phi Weiss.

[nikcers]

Paul Ryan, Mitch Mcconnel, and establishment pledge devotion to Trump 03/15/16
Donald Trump's Speech to AIPAC Mar 21, 2016 -

Do you guys remember when Trump cancelled the last republican debate to give a speech for APIAC?

[CPUd]

Do you guys remember when Trump cancelled the last republican debate to give a speech for APIAC?

[openfire]

Do you guys remember when Trump cancelled the last republican debate to give a speech for APIAC?

Yup. The Israelis are political terrorists; Pander or else...

[nikcers]

Yup. The Israelis are political terrorists; Pander or else...

Cheney ran attack ads against Rand for not being Pro Israel. Cheney Loves Trump.. Plus the establishment all said they would support Trump right when he gave that speech. That was what put him IN with the establishment.. Paul Ryan, Mitch Mcconnel ect

[CPUd]

[erowe1]

And I guess you didn't notice that I shared the name of a an anti Zionist website , owned and run by a Jewish man, Phi Weiss.

There you go. Your own link proves you were wrong about Jews.

[erowe1]

He called out "Jews" in "general" because they "generally" don't oppose the oppression of Palestinians.

They don't? Got a source for that?

[openfire]

They don't? That a source for that?

The last Israeli election?

[erowe1]

The last Israeli election?

How do you figure?

[openfire]

They re-elected Netanyahu.

[nikcers]

They re-elected Netanyahu.

If they have control over our elections, you think that they have no control over their own?

[erowe1]

They re-elected Netanyahu.

That's a result of the fact that more Israeli voters voted for the Likud than any other party.

Even if we accepted the premise that voting Likud means that someone supports oppressing Palestinians, there are 15 million Jews in the world, and only 885,000 people (not all of whom were Jews) voted for the Likud party. So that comes out to less than 6% of all the world's Jews voting for the Likud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...election,_2013

So how does that prove your claim that Jews in general don't oppose the oppression of Palestinians?

[openfire]

If they have control over our elections, you think that they have no control over their own?

Good point, the elections over there may be (and probably are) "rigged". But have you seen any protests in Israel over rigged elections, voter fraud, etc? I actually did a google search on Israeli "rigged election" right after the vote (because I suspected shenanigans) and I could find nothing... No irregularities reported... Not to say it didn't happen, but there is no evidence.

But let me ask you this: At any time since Israel's inception, have the people risen up and forced the Israeli government to stop oppressing the Palestinians?

[erowe1]

But let me ask you this: At any time since Israel's inception, have the people risen up and forced the Israeli government to stop oppressing the Palestinians?

They haven't done that successfully. But there have definitely been massive demonstrations on behalf of justice for Palestinians, as well as numerous elections that were won by parties that promised more compromising approaches to the Israel-Palestine conflict than the Likud of late.

I imagine that your reasoning must be a lot like the reasoning of Middle-Eastern Muslims who support terrorism against innocent citizens in western nations. "They haven't risen up and overthrown their government, so they must all support what they're doing to us."

[openfire]

That's a result of the fact that more Israeli voters voted for the Likud than any other party.

Even if we accepted the premise that voting Likud means that someone supports oppressing Palestinians, there are 15 million Jews in the world, and only 885,000 people (not all of whom were Jews) voted for the Likud party. So that comes out to less than 6% of all the world's Jews voting for the Likud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...election,_2013

So how does that prove your claim that Jews in general don't oppose the oppression of Palestinians?

Because if the majority of Jews stand against the oppression of the Palestinians, it would stand to reason that at some point in their 60+ year history, they would at least once elect a government that would not oppress the Palestinians. Instead we have this:

[erowe1]

Because if the majority of Jews stand against the oppression of the Palestinians, it would stand to reason that at some point in their 60+ year history, they would at least once elect a government that would not oppress the Palestinians.

Really?

Does that work with American elections too? Does US foreign policy really reflect the will of the American people?

And do you really think that not once have a majority of them voted for a government that would not oppress the Palestinian people? Even in 2013, 77% of Israelis who voted voted for parties other than the Likud. In other elections, like 1999, the Likud lost. And before 1977, the trend of Israeli elections was one of the right wing progressively losing its strength.

Also, what in the world do those maps have to do with your point? They have little or nothing to do with Israeli elections. The first two are from before there were any Israeli elections, and the third one shows the expansion of Israel's borders that came about as the result of their victory in a defensive war. If you don't like what happened in 1967, you should put most of the blame on the alliance of surrounding Arab countries that amassed troops and threatened imminent invasion of Israel, and then subsequently got their butts kicked. More importantly, oppression of Palestinians and Israel's borders are two separate issues. It could well be the case that we could see those dark green regions disappear entirely and be absorbed into Israel and that the Palestinians would be much better off and suffer much less oppression as a result.

[openfire]

I imagine that your reasoning must be a lot like the reasoning of Middle-Eastern Muslims who support terrorism against innocent citizens in western nations. "They haven't risen up and overthrown their government, so they must all support what they're doing to us."

Well, if we allow our government to go over there and kill millions of them, we must support it. We do support it. They are correct in their thinking.

[erowe1]

Well, if we allow our government to go over there and kill millions of them, we must support it. We do support it. They are correct in their thinking.

No. They are incorrect in their thinking. The federal government does tons of things the American people do not support, and for that matter often don't even know about.

Look at the bank bailouts. Public opinion was overwhelmingly against them.

[openfire]

Really?

Does that work with American elections too? Does US foreign policy really reflect the will of the American people?

Yes it does. Wars require the consent of the people; Hence false flags like 9/11.

[openfire]

No. They are incorrect in their thinking. The federal government does tons of things the American people do not support, and for that matter often don't even know about.

Look at the bank bailouts. Public opinion was overwhelmingly against them.

OK sure, but every Israeli, every Jew worldwide, knows exactly what is being done to the Palestinians.