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Thread: East Coast states want to tax drivers’ travel, not their gas

  1. #1

    East Coast states want to tax drivers’ travel, not their gas

    East Coast states want to tax drivers’ travel, not their gas

    By Michael Laris
    June 25

    A group of East Coast states wants to help overhaul the way America pays for its decaying roads, and it’s starting with Monopoly money.

    Delaware, Pennsylvania, Connecticut and New Hampshire are proposing pilots to figure out how they might charge motorists a fee for the miles they travel — rather than taxing their gas, as state and federal officials do today.

    The I-95 Corridor Coalition, which represents transportation officials from 16 states and the District of Columbia, applied for a federal grant last month to test the idea.

    Officials would stitch together the policies and technologies needed to count the miles driven by 50 recruits from each of the four states, including state legislators, transportation officials or other willing guinea pigs. They would send out “faux invoices” monthly. And they would collect the data that legislatures — and the driving public — would require to decide if the change makes sense.

    Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...ecb_story.html
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  3. #2
    Yup, only a matter of time...count on the gas tax not going away.

    Just another way to track you.

  4. #3
    ^^^Some of us have been saying this for years. Especially now that these states have EZ-PASS.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  5. #4
    It's because they aren't getting as much taxes due to improving gas mileages, electric cars, etc.

    In a way it's better because it's an actual usage fee, which I feel is vastly better than other forms of taxes... however, the bad/scary parts are how they're going to do the measuring, and as mentioned if the gas tax will actually go away or if they'll double dip.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It's because they aren't getting as much taxes due to improving gas mileages, electric cars, etc.

    In a way it's better because it's an actual usage fee, which I feel is vastly better than other forms of taxes... however, the bad/scary parts are how they're going to do the measuring, and as mentioned if the gas tax will actually go away or if they'll double dip.
    So are you in favor of taxing our right to use the roads ?
    “[T]he enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.” (Heller, 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S.Ct., at 2822.)

    How long before "going liberal" replaces "going postal"?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    So are you in favor of taxing our right to use the roads ?
    First, I don't think that roads or road usage are a right.

    If roads are provided by government at whatever level (local/state/federal), then they must be paid for. The fairest way to do this is by usage, not by something like a gas tax, because if you tax gas, then people are paying for usage of the roads, even if the gas will not be used to drive on roads. Right now, if you buy gas for your generator, that money is (supposedly) pay for road maintenance and improvement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It's because they aren't getting as much taxes due to improving gas mileages, electric cars, etc.

    In a way it's better because it's an actual usage fee, which I feel is vastly better than other forms of taxes... however, the bad/scary parts are how they're going to do the measuring, and as mentioned if the gas tax will actually go away or if they'll double dip.
    So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

    Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?

    If that's the case, why change anything?

    The gas tax already self adjusts for that.

    This is just a way in which to get Big Brother in your car everywhere you go, nothing more, and there is no upside to it.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    First, I don't think that roads or road usage are a right.

    If roads are provided by government at whatever level (local/state/federal), then they must be paid for. The fairest way to do this is by usage, not by something like a gas tax, because if you tax gas, then people are paying for usage of the roads, even if the gas will not be used to drive on roads. Right now, if you buy gas for your generator, that money is (supposedly) pay for road maintenance and improvement.
    How did you get to the gas station to fill your generator tanks?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

    Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?
    By weight would be ideal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If that's the case, why change anything?

    The gas tax already self adjusts for that.
    The gas tax will not adjust to changes in average fuel economy, or to electric vehicles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This is just a way in which to get Big Brother in your car everywhere you go, nothing more, and there is no upside to it.
    There are ways which do not involve vehicle tracking.

    I don't find the gas tax to be so awful that it needs to be replaced immediately, but at some point a new method will be needed to pay for roads, and as I said, I find usage taxes to be the least offensive method.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    How did you get to the gas station to fill your generator tanks?
    In another vehicle which also burns gas, which means that I already paid the tax for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    First, I don't think that roads or road usage are a right.

    If roads are provided by government at whatever level (local/state/federal), then they must be paid for. The fairest way to do this is by usage, not by something like a gas tax, because if you tax gas, then people are paying for usage of the roads, even if the gas will not be used to drive on roads. Right now, if you buy gas for your generator, that money is (supposedly) pay for road maintenance and improvement.
    In my entire life I have not bought over 1 gallon of gas for a generator and I still happen to have it. If you buy gas for something other than use on the roads apply for a friggin refund. You sir are an idiot.

    Last edited by mrsat_98; 06-25-2016 at 08:01 PM.
    “[T]he enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.” (Heller, 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S.Ct., at 2822.)

    How long before "going liberal" replaces "going postal"?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    In my entire life I have not bought over 1 gallon of gas for a generator and I still happen to have it. If you buy gas for something other than use on the roads apply for a friggin refund. You sir are an idiot.
    Apply for a refund?


    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    Doesn't even make any sense... you're the one who thinks that you have a right to roads, not me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yup, only a matter of time...count on the gas tax not going away.

    Just another way to track you.
    It is a big country.

    There are lots of small counties.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post

    Doesn't even make any sense... you're the one who thinks that you have a right to roads, not me.
    My ancestors built the roads. Government usurped them.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Apply for a refund?




    Doesn't even make any sense... you're the one who thinks that you have a right to roads, not me.
    Most states had a form when gas tax first started for refunds should you purchase fuel that was not for use on the roads. Instead you agree that there should be this huge bureaucracy and invasion of our right to privacy, among other rights so you don't have to pay tax on your generator fuel. What a joke. I don't think I have a right to travel on the roads, I know GD well I do.
    “[T]he enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.” (Heller, 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S.Ct., at 2822.)

    How long before "going liberal" replaces "going postal"?

  17. #15
    If they're trying to encourage folks to move out of the area, I think that's really a very good idea.

  18. #16
    Live Free or Drive.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Live Free or Drive.
    Hitchiking is illegal in the I-95 Corridor. So, uh.....hm.

  21. #18
    Always better to fire bureaucrats (and eliminate their pensions!) than to raise taxes......

  22. #19
    Just off the top of my head , now that I am retired ,half the fuel I buy does not get used on the road. Tractor , Tiller , Chainsaws , Wood splitter , Weed eaters,mower , Generator etc. The generator alone holds 7 gallon and I have filled it up twice the past two times the power was out , basically to run a sump pump and save some freezers full of meat.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

    Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?

    If that's the case, why change anything?

    The gas tax already self adjusts for that.

    This is just a way in which to get Big Brother in your car everywhere you go, nothing more, and there is no upside to it.
    Precisely. The gas tax also encourages --- without being an utter $#@! about it --- people to consider fuel efficiency when purchasing a vehicle. The consideration may amount to "$#@! it; I am getting a muscle car" but it's still in the back of our minds. We went from a small SUV and a Cadillac to two Civics at one point, and the difference was substantial enough to make it a huge consideration going forward.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    So are you in favor of taxing our right to use the roads ?
    If you are using it, then you need to pay for it. That's kind of the point of libertarianism. With the introduction of alternative fuels, a gas tax probably isn't the most efficient way of distributing costs.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

    Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?

    If that's the case, why change anything?

    The gas tax already self adjusts for that.
    It allows propane fueled cars, electric cars and cooking oil powered cars not to pay anything at all. I drove a 1993 Ford Escort. But I am sure I used a lot more gas than a Prius even though I would assume the wear and tear was approximately the same.

    I am (or was, before the Great Recession) a cost accountant by trade, and IMHO the gas tax is not the most effective method of distributing costs.
    Last edited by angelatc; 06-26-2016 at 11:47 AM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    That's kind of the point of libertarianism.
    The point of libertarianism is voluntary transactions - the non aggression principle. Taxes are not voluntary.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yup, only a matter of time...count on the gas tax not going away.
    Just another way to track you.
    Exactly. Its rather Orwellian tracking everybody's travel. One more giant brick in building the police state.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.



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  29. #25
    Turn them into toll roads? Tax by the mile does not account for different types of vehicles causing more or less wear or tear on the highways if you want to properly assess the real costs of each car on the road though. A heaver vehicle like a commercial truck will cause more wear than a Honda Civic. Maybe a different toll for different sized vehicles.

    Tax by the gallon of gas doesn't necessarily capture actual road usage and wear and tear either- a more efficient vehicle will burn less fuel (and pay fewer taxes) than a comparable sized vehicle travelling the same mileage and inflicting the same wear and tear on the road.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Turn them into toll roads? Tax by the mile does not account for different types of vehicles causing more or less wear or tear on the highways if you want to properly assess the real costs of each car on the road though. A heaver vehicle like a commercial truck will cause more wear than a Honda Civic. Maybe a different toll for different sized vehicles.

    Tax by the gallon of gas doesn't necessarily capture actual road usage and wear and tear either- a more efficient vehicle will burn less fuel (and pay fewer taxes) than a comparable sized vehicle travelling the same mileage and inflicting the same wear and tear on the road.
    A lot of the lighter vehicles also happen to be the fuel efficient ones.



    It's a lot better than tracking people around.

    Incidentally, if people are going to nitpick about wear and tear on the roads, then the elephant in the room is that they'd have to track me to see which roads I'm on. If I spend a great deal of time on dirt roads or roads that will need very little/no upkeep to be funded by my fuel tax, I'm still taxed the same under all of the proposed systems.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  31. #27
    Which is why if you want to go in that direction a toll road is better. It directly taxes those who use a specific road. Of course this does not work as well on city streets compared to highways.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    If you are using it, then you need to pay for it. That's kind of the point of libertarianism. With the introduction of alternative fuels, a gas tax probably isn't the most efficient way of distributing costs.
    Oh yes lets convert all our rights to privileges so that we can be taxed equally.Why don't we consider taxing those who actually use the roads i.e. commercially. We don't have the right to use the roads for commercial purposes. Before an intelligent discussion can be had on this topic we must define the word use. Can we decide on what we are discussing before we decide its kewl to tax otherwise I suggest bowing down and licking the hand that feeds you.
    “[T]he enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.” (Heller, 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S.Ct., at 2822.)

    How long before "going liberal" replaces "going postal"?

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    Oh yes lets convert all our rights to privileges
    There is no such thing as a right to roads or the use thereof.


    To explain why, let's think about what it would mean if, hypothetically, Americans had the right to roads. That would mean that someone, somewhere, is obligated to build and maintain roads for us. Likewise, a right to use roads would mean that if someone were to create a road, then immediately all other Americans would be entitled to use their road.

    It's identical to the concept of the right to electricity, water, internet, healthcare, or donuts.
    Last edited by TheCount; 06-26-2016 at 05:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Maybe a different toll for different sized vehicles.
    I'm guessing you don't drive on toll roads.

    They are already set up that way.

    Roughly 10 to 1 has been my experience...if you pay a buck, a full size 5 axle semi will pay $10.

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