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Thread: 2000 Years of Pauline Christianity

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    2000 Years of Pauline Christianity


    2000 Years of Pauline Christianity

    Since the fall of the Roman Empire, the force that has most profoundly affected Western culture is Christianity. Its influence is so pervasive that we don't even realize its effect; we just take its rules for granted. This essay explores the results of that influence, the possibility that they could have been different, and certainly the hope that they may be altered in the future.

    This exploration ends in hope, with the conviction that love, tolerance, acceptance, and compassion were central to Yeshua's teaching and will have a profound effect on mankind in the centuries to come. However, it begins with some negative statements about the Church. Please stay with the explanation past the dark beginning to the light at the end.

    Why are we saying these things now when they weren't said centuries ago? Probably because people were not given access to the Bible until the 17th Century, and even then knowledge of the content of the Bible was not widespread until the 20th Century. The Church has had such a firm grip on spiritual affairs, often combined with the State, that we simply have not been able to rethink it.

    We are also able to look at Christianity, the authorities, and the Bible without fear of being burned at the stake if we disagree with the authorities. That has only been true for a couple of centuries.

    The Early Church

    In the days after Yeshua's death and resurrection, there was no Christian Church as we think of it today. The followers of Yeshua were with James, the brother of Yeshua in Jerusalem, Peter, and the other apostles. Some suggest they were there with the Essenes, in whose movement they may have been a part, although there is considerable disagreement about that, and the author of Luke, the only history of the early church we have, did not mention them. Outside of the core group were followers who were not willing to convert to Judaism and were simply "believers."

    Then Paul, formerly Saul, a Roman citizen and persecutor of the early followers of Yeshua, began publicizing Yeshua widely. Paul never met Yeshua and knew about him only through the stories that were being circulated. Paul and the leaders of the Jerusalem church, Peter and James, the brother of Yeshua, were at odds over whether converts must first convert to Judaism before becoming followers of Yeshua.

    Paul's teachings about Yeshua were very different from those of James, Peter, and the others in the Jerusalem group. It is striking that Paul's letters never quote Yeshua, rarely refer to Yeshua's teachings, and never mention Yeshua's life. Paul taught his own version of Yeshua's teachings and created his own rules. The Christian Church throughout the 2,000 years since Yeshua has been formed by Paul's teachings, not the teachings of James, the brother of Yeshua, and, some say, not the teachings of Yeshua himself.

    The fact that Paul did not present Yeshua's teachings in his epistles or his own preaching has been acknowledged for centuries. Only the Church, built around Paul, fails to admit that fact. To see what prominent theologians, authors, and other great thinkers have said about Paul, click here.

    The Central Difference

    The central difference between Yeshua's teaching and Paul's church was in justification by faith. Paul believed the statement in Ephesians 2:8: "You have been saved by God's love and kindness because you believed. It was not because of anything you did, but it was a gift from God."

    Yeshua said repeatedly what was reported in John 3:3: "'I tell you the truth. No person can see God's kingdom if he is not born again.'" And in another form in Luke 17:20-21: "The kingdom of God does not come visibly, nor will people say 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Humankind was to develop its own salvation by changing within. No one would give it to a person as a gift.

    Yeshua promised the transformation would require work: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7: 13-14) Spiritual development, Yeshua assured us, was going to be hard. He described the thought and behavior that should be characteristic of a spiritual person, but said it would take work to attain it. He never suggested that all a person had to do was swear allegiance to him and nothing else would be required.

    A few passages later in Matthew, Yeshua is reported to have said, "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." (Matthew 7: 24-27)

    Yeshua gave the blueprint, but it would require that those receiving it build the house by putting the lessons "into practice." That means someone might hear the words and have the belief in Yeshua as the Messiah so they build a house on the words, but if the person doesn't grow spiritually, the words are meaningless--they have a foundation of sand, Yeshua said. He made a point of contrasting the two approaches to his teaching: belief is not sufficient, he said; spiritual growth is necessary.

    Yeshua asserts elsewhere that simply making a statement of belief is insufficient to achieve what he describes: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:21-27) Evildoers is an appropriate name for many in the church today who confess belief, but whose actions defy Yeshua's words about living in love; that is especially true of those who sexually abuse children or protect the perpetrators.

    Yeshua states explicitly that the person who will live in the kingdom of God that is within, for eternity, is the one who loves God and loves his neighbor:

    On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
    "What is written in the Law?" [Jesus] replied. "How do you read it?"
    He answered: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"; and, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
    "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." (Luke 10:25-37)
    Yeshua makes no mention of believing in him as the Messiah as a requirement to inherit eternal life, even when asked directly what one must do!

    Because a believer in Paul's church needed only make a statement of belief to fulfill all the requirements of Paul's Christianity, no expectation of spiritual growth was included in the new church. Not surprisingly, after two millennia of Paul's church, little advancement in spiritual maturity among Christians and in the church as a whole has resulted. Neither the church nor the believers have been able to see the kingdom of God within as Yeshua described it. The societies founded on Paul's teaching bear no resemblance to the kingdom of God in Yeshua's teaching.

    Understanding Paul and His Time

    I believe that the scholars have portrayed Paul accurately, and it must be acknowledged that Paul's theology formed the Western Christian church (beginning with the Roman Catholic Church). However, Paul undoubtedly had the best of intentions based on his view of what was happening to humanity. Understanding Paul and his time will explain why he disregarded Yeshua's teachings and created a church based on one creed that was not in Yeshua's teaching: believe in Yeshua as Messiah to be saved.

    Paul's conversion experience described by the author of Luke and alluded to by Paul in his epistles must have had a profound affect on Saul, persecutor of the followers of Yeshua. He left his preoccupations and occupation and embarked on arduous journeys to tell humankind about Yeshua. In the end, he was killed for his belief, without recanting. The experience in which he spoke with Yeshua after his death had been life-changing.

    It had such a profound effect on Paul that he dedicated himself to telling others to believe in Jesus as the Messiah Israel had been waiting for. But he wasn't expecting Yeshua to delay returning for a few decades, and certainly not for two millennia. He was sure Yeshua was going to return in a few days or weeks, but certainly within his lifetime. So there was no time to lose. People had to hear about Yeshua and believe in him to become part of the elect who would inherit the kingdom. Converting the gentiles might also hasten Yeshua's return.

    That being true, talk of brotherly love, ethics, conduct, and spiritual growth was less important, even superfluous. Why would people need to grow to learn how to forgive others, not judge others, pray for their enemies, or follow any of the other spiritual teachings of Yeshua when the Kingdom of God was going to be established in a few days or weeks? There would be no life in which spiritual growth would matter.

    What was important was conversion--belief in Yeshua as the messiah. Paul had a genuine zeal to bring belief to the world before the end. He first wished for conversion among the Hebrews, but that was difficult because of Yeshua's ignominious death, which scandalized the Jews. The Messiah couldn't have been killed by the Romans as slaves were executed: through crucifixion. Paul probably had greater success with the "god fearers," groups of people at every Synagogue who admired Judaism and observed many of its practices, but were not willing to be circumcised or follow Mosaic law. Paul had the answer; they could join a Jewish group without following these requirements. The final group he appealed to was the Greek and Latin gentiles, who could believe in Yeshua as a savior, but wouldn't have to convert to Judaism, follow Mosaic law, or understand the notion of a Jewish Messiah.

    Paul described his zeal and adaptation of his message in I Corinthians 8:19-23:

    Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

    Since the remaining days were few, conduct, Jewish observances, and spiritual growth were subordinated to conversion to the point that they were minimized or discarded. He wrote stirring words about love, especially in I Corinthians 13, but his focus wasn't upon helping the communities grow spiritually; belief meant everything. His admonitions about love and peace came only when the communities had conflict that threatened his mission.

    And so Paul set about with great zeal converting everyone who would listen. He didn't want to lose valuable time explaining Yeshua's teachings; converts simply had to believe. The result was that the church Paul founded focused entirely on belief, with little regard for love, morality, ethics, and spiritual growth. Circumcision and the Mosaic law, especially concerning diet, were obstacles for converting Gentiles, so he expunged them from the new church. Nothing mattered for him except bringing the Jews, the "god fearers," and the Gentiles to belief so they would be part of the kingdom of God. He also likely believed that converting the Gentiles would hasten Yeshua's parousia (second coming).

    Paul was also heavily influenced by the Hellenistic Mystery Religions. These religions were well known to the gentiles he was attempting to convert, and in his willingness to change his message to suit his audience, he re-characterized the Yeshua he never knew to fit the Hellenistic religions. Central to them were the violent deaths of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dionysus that brought eternal life to their initiates. Paul added the interpretation of Yeshua's mission as being killed to save humankind.

    If you wish to learn about what was added to the stories about Yeshua from the Mystery Religions, click here.
    In 48 or 49 CE, he was summoned to Jerusalem by the leaders there to explain why he was abandoning Jewish Torah law and inserting the Greek Mystery Religion atonement death belief system. Paul downplayed the extent of his change from Yeshua's teaching, asking only that the gentiles not be required to convert to Judaism to become followers of Yeshua. He was thus confirmed in the role of "apostle to the Gentiles," with full permission to enroll Gentiles in the messianic movement without requiring full conversion to Judaism. But it is clear that Peter and James had no real understanding of Paul's revolutionary thinking that departed from what they knew of Yeshua's teaching.

    However, when Peter visited Paul in Antioch and became aware of the full extent of Paul's views, a serious rift began between Pauline and Jewish views of Yeshua's teaching. At a second conference in Jerusalem, around 55 CE, James accused Paul of teaching Jews "to turn their backs on Moses" (Acts 21:21). Again, however, Paul evaded the charge by concealing his views, and he agreed to undergo a test of his own observance of the Torah. His deception, however, was detected by a group of "Asian Jews" (probably Jewish Christians) who were aware of his real teaching. A stormy protest ensued. Paul feared for his life and was rescued by the Roman police, to whom he declared that he was a Roman citizen so they would protect him. This announcement surprised the apostles in Jerusalem because the Romans were their chief enemy. It was the end of Paul's association with the Jerusalem Church. And in a sense, it was the beginning of Christianity as we know it today.

    Paul managed to marry the most attractive elements of Judaism and the Greek Mystery Religions, making this new belief in Yeshua attractive to the gentiles, who admired Judaism but were not willing to convert (because of the Mosaic law requirements and circumcision), and who knew and were committed to the Mystery Religions. The new religion was a fabrication containing little of the teachings of the Jewish Rabbi, Yeshua ben Yosef, who taught in the hills of the Galilee.

    The Church Never Reconsidered Paul in Light of Yeshua's Teaching

    Unfortunately, as the years dragged on with no return of the Jesus Christ the church had created, the rigid religion that had evolved would not reconsider Yeshua's teachings. Generations of people were living and dying while waiting for the second coming, and they needed to grow in love and compassion to establish the Kingdom of God Yeshua described. However, focusing on the individual communing with God and growing through understanding and wisdom would have diminished the church's control--people would have grown closer to God and further from the church. The powerful, wealthy church leaders were loathe to give up the control and power they held, so they kept the flock in fear and obedience by subjugating Yeshua to the church's control.

    At the Council of Nicea in 325, nearly three centuries and 10 or so generations after Yeshua's death, the church still focused on belief in the Messiah, preparing for the second coming. Spiritual growth remained superfluous, as it had been for Paul.

    The church had no substance other than the belief and salvation creed, so Yeshua's birth, death, resurrection, and divinity came to dominate everything about the church and church practices. Yeshua's teachings were relegated to meaningless words recited mindlessly in a liturgy that became increasingly complicated and filled with repetitious rituals and regalia. The crucifix became the central icon because of the focus on the sacrifice of Christ and requirement of belief.

    The church based on Yeshua, who focused on love, evolved into an organization based on fear. In countries where the church had more power, there was more fear. Hell gained in prominence to frighten nonbelievers into conversion and keep believers from straying from the church's grasp. The church began selling indulgences by promoting the fear that loved ones were to spend aeons in purgatory or be consigned to hell if the survivors didn't pay. Amid this harsh atmosphere of repression and fear, Mary, the mother of Yeshua, became deified because she was the gentle, feminine figure who could intercede to enhance a worshiper's stature with Jesus to avoid hell and enter heaven.

    And so, for the millennia that followed, Paul's zeal to convert people before what he believed to be the imminent coming of the end in the first century continued to dominate Christianity; time had stood still. In Dark Age Europe after the fall of Rome, the focus remained on conversion and belief, even though Paul's bones, along with his expectation for an imminent return, had been cold and dead for centuries. In the Middle Ages, Yeshua's teachings remained in abeyance while the church built magnificent cathedrals and developed elaborate liturgies. At the Reformation, the Protestant church didn't use the new broom to sweep out the antiquated expectations Paul held and inaugurate an era of spiritual growth based on Yeshua's teachings. During the revivals in American Evangelicalism in the nineteenth century, no firebrand preachers returned to Yeshua's creed to show the world they were his followers by having love for one another; instead, the preachers bellowed that the sinners must repent and believe to avoid hell's fires.

    And today, 2,000 years after Yeshua's death, the church still maintains Paul's focus on a belief that he held because he was sure spiritual growth and conduct were inconsequential--the end times were a few days away.

    However, over the centuries, the requirement to believe has been expanded: people must believe in the church as well as the Messiah. The conversion is not complete or genuine unless the person obeys the rules the Church asserts as dogma. The Christian Church speaks for God. No other approach to God is true; in fact, other interpretations of God, Yeshua, or church doctrines are inspired by Satan. The pages of text you are reading now will be dismissed as Satanic. Because Yeshua's teachings were regarded as inconsequential, the West experienced no spiritual growth for the two millennia since his death. Instead, the Church's requirement for conversion and its burgeoning power and wealth resulted in 2,000 years of pressure to conform, torture, and widespread murder. Since the only worthy people in the universe were those who agreed with Paul's interpretation of Yeshua and followed Paul's rules, all other human beings were pagan rabble who could be conquered, subjugated, and killed unless they converted. Armies led by Christian banners slaughtered Muslims, Native Americans, Jews, suspected witches, reformers, and countless millions on every continent of the globe, all because a religious leader in the first century believed people must be converted to save their souls.

    Even within the Church, groups who do not obey the Pauline rules and believe the Pauline truths are ostracized. The intolerance of the Church has provided justification for ethnic, national, gender, sexual, and racial bigotry, with the assurance that the Church condones condemnation and violence against those the Church-related groups abhor.

    On the interpersonal level, one person to another, Christians, bolstered by the Church's intolerance, lord over other people, castigating them for not following the rules, browbeating them about their lifestyles, and cutting off relationships or sending transgressors out of families because they don't follow religious practices and rules the self-righteous churchgoers require. They could not do that if the Church didn't tolerate it and provide the model for it. The source is the Pauline focus on intolerant belief with no regard for love and compassion.

    In the end, Paul's theology separated man from God. Within the Pauline Church, following Paul's model, the knowledgeable few interpret God for the ignorant many. Until the 16th century, common people were not even permitted to read the Bible, much less seek God and listen to the Holy Spirit individually, in their hearts.

    Those who disagree with the knowledgeable were killed, but today are simply asked to leave the Church. Under no circumstances is an individual to interpret God's will without the intervention of the knowledgeable who derive their power from the writings of the earlier authorities, especially Paul. Common people may pray to God, but the answers they receive must match the answers condoned by the knowledgeable authorities. Anyone who speaks directly to God and receives answers not sanctioned by the knowledgeable authorities was burned at the stake as a heretic (and is today castigated in the media, excommunicated, or denied tenure).

    This unyielding intolerance and the adamantine requirement that all people in all cultures must obey the Church to be considered worthy of even existing, have led Western civilization into a focus on a physical-world religion with external rules and away from the inner realm where Yeshua said we must be born again and the kingdom of God resides. It has created the opportunity for all of the abuses that come from the physical realm: corruption, arrogance, bigotry, intolerance, sadism, and even sexual abuse. And in the end, as people abandon this repressive church, they abandon God.

    The idea that the Church must intervene between man and God, and that the God in all of us isn't powerful enough to speak to us individually, is so much a part of our culture and thinking that we don't question it. We would never think of receiving personal messages from God without the Church, the minister/priest, and the Bible telling us what God is saying. We think someone who says he hears from God is crazy! That isn't what Yeshua taught us or wants for us; it was taught to us by the Church.

    Pauline Christianity, in other words, has profoundly separated man from God.

    At the same time, its arrogance and intolerance have fostered remarkable violence, cruelty, and sexual and psychological abuse. It has effectively separated man from man.

    And it has taught that man cannot trust his own instincts and the inner voice that speaks to him about what it right, good, and compassionate. It has assuredly separated man from himself.

    Yeshua's Teachings

    Love God and Love Others Unconditionally
    Paul's reqirement to profess belief in a creed was not part of Yeshua's teaching, but striving for spiritual growth to have a loving, compassionate society was:

    One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

    At the Last Supper, giving those closest to him the words he wanted them to carry with them to the world about his teachings, a summary of his ministry, he said

    A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another. (John 13:34-35)

    There is no room for telling someone he can't be in the church because he's a homosexual or doesn't go to church every Sunday or doesn't give a dime in the offering plate. Yeshua doesn't say, people will know you follow my teachings if you harass others into converting and coming to church or if you tell someone they aren't welcome in church because of their beliefs or if you rid the church of homosexuals. The intolerance, cruelty, and hate in the last 2,000 years of Christianity and in today's churches comes from Christians, not from Christ.

    Do Not Judge Others--Be Tolerant and Accepting

    The Gospels show that Yeshua taught acceptance, love, tolerance, and compassion, without judgment of others. He undoubtedly said what was reported in Matthew about the requirement never to judge another under any circumstances:

    Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:3-5)

    In effect, we will never be so perfect we can state a judgment to someone else about that person's imperfections--we have a plank of wood ten feet long, twelve inches wide, and two inches thick in our own eye; what nerve we have to tell someone else about the speck of dust in her eye! When we get the plank of wood out of our eye, then maybe we can tell someone else about a little speck in her eye. But we'll never get rid of every speck of that plank from our own eye! That's what Yeshua was saying. We'll never be perfect enough to judge another or cast the first stone. So just don't do it.

    No person was unworthy in Yeshua's eyes. You know the story of the adulteress brought to Yeshua. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Yeshua, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" (John 8:3-6) They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    Here's what's important. Even the Pharisees knew that this man Yeshua, who was astounding everyone with his wisdom, was teaching his followers to be compassionate and tolerant. Yeshua's teaching was so clear about tolerance, love, forgiveness, and acceptance that everyone knew it, even the Pharisees. The law said an adulteress should be stoned. No one defied the law--they wouldn't even think about it. It would be like us today thinking it would be OK to rob a bank or run all of the red lights we come to.

    The Pharisees went to the trouble of setting up this whole thing because they knew he would not condemn even an adulteress, a person who had broken God's law as they interpreted it. Instead, he would accept her. They thought he would say, "I don't care what the law says; don't stone her. She has just made a mistake, but we must forgive and accept her as we must forgive and accept anyone, regardless of what they do or have done." They then would have had cause to stone him because he was party to her guilt; that was the law too.

    They were sure he would fall into that trap because love, compassion, tolerance, and forgiveness were central to Yeshua's teachings and everyone who heard of Yeshua heard that about him, even the Pharisees. There was no Bible with Yeshua's words in it then. It was the way Yeshua lived his life, and the central message of his teachings. The Pharisees chose that teaching of Yeshua to trap him because they knew he was so strong about it that he would never condemn the woman.

    But Yeshua bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. We don't know what he wrote. When they kept questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

    Yeshua took the responsibility from a faceless crowd judging the woman in God's name and placed it in the hands of each individual, saying, "If you can stand before God now having never made a mistake, go ahead, throw the first stone." He was restating his fundamental teaching: "First, take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

    He was saying, yet again, "Unless you're perfect, don't judge." Here, in fact, he was taking it a step further: "If you ever have sinned, don't judge." He put his life in danger to say that.

    Yeshua straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Yeshua declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:10-11)

    Those words should reverberate in the minds of every person who claims to follow Yeshua: "Then neither do I condemn you." Where can those who profess to follow Yeshua find room in that statement to be intolerant of anyone: Jews, atheists, women, rock stars, homosexuals, people of color, people who never go to church, adulterers, thieves?

    He didn't tell her she was wicked and he wouldn't accept her if she didn't change her ways, that she wouldn't go to Heaven, that she shouldn't come to church until she straightens up. The word, "sin," meant "mistake" in the Greek words used to write the original text of the Bible, not what it means today: an act not approved by God. He said, don't make the same mistakes again! And I accept you, unconditionally!

    Yeshua said to his disciples, "As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." The zealots in the church today who condemn people who make mistakes or don't live life the way they require them to live it are, by Yeshua's words, not followers of Yeshua.

    These are Jerry Fallwell's words after the Word Trade Center and Pentagon bombings:

    I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."

    Pat Robertson then said, "Well, I totally concur."

    It is remarkable that today's Christian fundamentalists are viewed as bigoted, intolerant, condemning, judgmental, closed-minded, and insensitive. Whose followers are they?

    People Should Approach God Personally, without the Church and Minister/Priests

    The records of Yeshua's words in the Gospels also show that Yeshua wanted people to approach God individually and commune with God without the layers of rules and intercession of a knowledgeable hierarchy of priests. Of the more than sixty times in the Bible the words pray, prayer, or prayed are said by or descriptive of Yeshua, only three relate to praying in public. He told his followers to commune with God individually, and never said don't trust the answers God gives them. He never once said "Go ahead and pray, but check out the answers you receive from God by getting approval from the priest/minister."

    When Yeshua defied the law in the scriptures and the Church, he asked the people who had assembled planning to stone the adulteress to search their own hearts individually. He said, in effect, "Disregard the law and look inside. Look at your spirit. If you find yourself to be perfect and blameless, then you can cast the first stone." And the converse is equally true: "But if you find that you, yourself, have had mistakes in your life, then you can't administer this Church law. You should be tolerant, accepting, and forgiving over any law set forth by the Church." The rules of the Church are not as important as the personal, inner searching you do about your relationship to God and to those around you.

    The two times Yeshua emphasized the importance of loving God and loving others, he prefaced the teaching with "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" and "A new command I give you." The laws have been replaced by the admonition to love.

    The words reported in Matthew and Luke as spoken by Yeshua resonate with his entire ministry.
    One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples." . . . [Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer and said a parable, then replied,] "So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:1-13)

    Yeshua said ask and God will give you the Holy Spirit with the knowledge you ask for. He didn't reply to the disciple saying "Pray, then ask the priest what God's answer is" or "Pray only in the presence of a minister so the minister can give you God's answer" or "Pray, then study the Scriptures to see what the answer is." Yeshua was answering the question about how the disciples should pray: "Your prayer is a question and your Father will send the Holy Spirit to answer; your prayer is a knock at the door and your Father will send the Holy Spirit to open the door; your prayer is seeking and your Father will send the Holy Spirit to make sure you find."

    The Church ignores these very clear words of Yeshua about love, acceptance, tolerance, and the importance of a personal relationship to God without a Church or minister/priest intervening; the reason is that Paul described a Church hierarchy and the leaders' exclusive power over people. He believed the churches had to stay intact while gaining more converts--Yeshua was returning any minute. Paul was also dynamic. He likely felt he and the leaders of the church could do a better job of evangelism than God within.

    At its root, the Pauline reliance on strict rules, scriptural backing for the injunctions, full-time minister/priests who must tell people about God, and evangelical campaigns to "sell" God, reveal a remarkable absence of trust and faith. It suggests that God simply isn't powerful enough to do the job; God can't get it right. At worst, it is almost agnostic: they don't seem to have confidence that there even is a God who can have any influence over the people. The Church fills the void and presents God in the ways that suit its purposes.

    Yeshua said the Father would send the Holy Spirit to anyone who asked. What is it that the church thinks it can provide that God can't?

    What Could Have Resulted from 2,000 Years of Teaching Tolerance, Love, and Compassion?
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    To be concluded at: http://30ce.com/paulinechristianity.htm
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-25-2016 at 09:15 AM.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Paul never met Yeshua and knew about him only through the stories that were being circulated.
    That's false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Paul and the leaders of the Jerusalem church, Peter and James, the brother of Yeshua, were at odds over whether converts must first convert to Judaism before becoming followers of Yeshua.
    That's also false.

    Notice how the author makes no attempt to support either of these two central claims with any evidence. His entire thesis fails along with them.

  4. #3
    Has anyone else ever noticed that our local Paulinist contingent never provides the level of proof nor evidence of their assertions that they demand and expect of others?
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-25-2016 at 11:11 AM.

  5. #4

    Blocked by Your Own Worldview

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Has anyone else ever noticed that our local Paulinist contingent never provides the level of proof nor evidence of their assertions that they demand and expect of others?
    Christians have provided evidence that Paul affirmed the doctrines of Christ. It's just that people like yourself refuse to accept the evidence.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Christians have provided evidence that Paul affirmed the doctrines of Christ. It's just that people like yourself refuse to accept the evidence.
    I grew up accepting the 'evidence' (so called) on faith, but then I read the book again. The Paulinists AKA Christians (so called) just have no problems with ignoring and arguing the parts of the Bible that they just don't like. That's most of the reasons that I have so many of them here on ignore. They're just a total waste of time and keystrokes. TJ and others were correct, only Jesus matters.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Has anyone else ever noticed that our local Paulinist contingent never provides the level of proof nor evidence of their assertions that they demand and expect of others?
    This statement is also false. I've provided the proof of the claims I made above before. I don't think you read it. Substantive interaction with actual arguments is not your M.O.

    Are you really interested? Or would I be wasting my time by spending much time on this?

    N.B. It takes practically no effort to copy and paste a link, and then expect other people to spend more time reading it than you spent posting it. But actually writing something substantive only to have someone skim it at best, is the opposite of that.
    Last edited by erowe1; 06-25-2016 at 09:31 PM.

  8. #7

    Ronin Truth is a Waste of Intellectual Engagement

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    This statement is always false. I've provided the proof of the claims I made above before. I don't think you read it. Substantive interaction with actual arguments is not your M.O.

    Are you really interested? Or would I be wasting my time by spending much time on this?

    N.B. It takes practically no effort to copy and paste a link, and then expect other people to spend more time reading it than you spent posting it. But actually writing something substantive only to have someone skim it at best, is the opposite of that.
    Exactly, erowe1. That's all Ronin Truth does. He can't give a definitive, comprehensive rebuttal to anything in which he disagrees with. All he knows how to do is copy and paste links. That's why his credibility, especially in these kinds of discussions, is always suspect because of his laziness and ignorant flippancy of facts that he has no intention of researching. He seriously needs to leave these forums and stick to playing Solitaire online or something.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Exactly, erowe1. That's all Ronin Truth does. He can't give a definitive, comprehensive rebuttal to anything in which he disagrees with. All he knows how to do is copy and paste links. That's why his credibility, especially in these kinds of discussions, is always suspect because of his laziness and ignorant flippancy of facts that he has no intention of researching. He seriously needs to leave these forums and stick to playing Solitaire online or something.
    "7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -- (King James Bible, Matthew)

    Bye, bye Paulinist.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Paul never met Yeshua and knew about him only through the stories that were being circulated.
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That's false.
    Paul met Jesus?
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Paul met Jesus?
    Yes. The account of one of their meetings is very famous and mentioned several times throughout Acts and his epistles. Notably, it's clear that this was not disputed by Jesus's other apostles.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Paul met Jesus?
    Only if you can manage to bring yourself to believe Paul. There are several differing versions of the story. Take your pick.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Has anyone else ever noticed that our local Paulinist contingent never provides the level of proof nor evidence of their assertions that they demand and expect of others?
    In rational debate and discourse, the positive claimant (you in this case) is required to provide evidence of a claim. If you are too lazy to do so, fine. But you won't persuade anyone if you choose not to. Cheers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Only if you can manage to bring yourself to believe Paul. There are several differing versions of the story. Take your pick.
    Do you doubt that Peter, and the rest of the twelve knew Jesus personally? Or that Jesus' own brothers knew him? Because they all managed to bring themselves to believe Paul.

    If Paul really didn't meet Jesus, or if he misrepresented Jesus' teachings, none of them realized it.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Yes. The account of one of their meetings is very famous and mentioned several times throughout Acts and his epistles. Notably, it's clear that this was not disputed by Jesus's other apostles.
    This^^ And the people Paul converted/ministered to were in communion with the rest of the Christian world till the Great Schism. This would not have happened if there was a disagreement between what Paul taught and what everyone else taught.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Yes. The account of one of their meetings is very famous and mentioned several times throughout Acts and his epistles. Notably, it's clear that this was not disputed by Jesus's other apostles.
    Are you talking about Paul's hallucination on the road to Damascus? Doesn't count.

    Is there an instance of them meeting in the flesh?
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    "7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -- (King James Bible, Matthew)

    Bye, bye Paulinist.
    Theo didn't do that in this thread. And King James was a "Paulinist" by your deifnition, FYI.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    In rational debate and discourse, the positive claimant (you in this case) is required to provide evidence of a claim. If you are too lazy to do so, fine. But you won't persuade anyone if you choose not to. Cheers!
    You obviously misread my post you quoted. (Intentionally?)

    We've had this conversation before. These ain't debates, rational nor otherwise.

    What is my positive claim, in your fevered mind? Read your Bible. There's your evidence.

    Folks may choose to be persuaded or not.

    Who cares?

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    You obviously misread my post you quoted. (Intentionally?)

    We've had this conversation before. These ain't debates, rational nor otherwise.
    No, you misread my post you quoted right there^^. (Intentionally?) Note I said "debate and discourse".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    What is my positive claim, in your fevered mind?
    The positive claim is the thesis of your copypasta. Did you forget to read it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Read your Bible. There's your evidence.
    I've read it. It doesn't prove what your claiming in this thread.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Who cares?
    Judging by the ridiculous number of threads you post on this topic, you do!
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  22. #19
    Indeed, RT, erowe and hb are correct.

    Peter even speaks highly of Paul in his epistle.

    Paul spent lots of time in Jerusalem with Peter, James, and the other apostles, and was ultimately accepted by them as an apostle himself, called by Jesus Himself.

    The apostles had every reason to not want to accept Paul as an apostle -- yet they did. If they thought he was legit, so should we.

    Ergo, his writings are apostolic and scripture, and preach the same gospel as all the other apostles and Christ himself.

    It's Christianity 101, and this Jesus v. Paul stuff you're messing around with is just wrong.

    Paul and Jesus don't teach a different salvation, or different doctrines. As you're fond of google searches, try something like "the apostleship of Paul" perhaps.

    I found this: http://theos.org/media/category/124/
    The bigger government gets, the smaller I wish it was.
    My new motto: More Love, Less Laws

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Are you talking about Paul's hallucination on the road to Damascus? Doesn't count.

    Is there an instance of them meeting in the flesh?
    That was a meeting in the flesh. You call it a hallucination, but none of the historical records of the meeting call it that.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    No, you misread my post you quoted right there^^. (Intentionally?) Note I said "debate and discourse".

    Most of the potential 'discoursees' I have on ignore. BTW, I still ain't the thread topic. And you are adding nothing 'ON TOPIC' of value, except for thread bumps.

    The positive claim is the thesis of your copypasta. Did you forget to read it?

    Only in an argument or discourse, and then only maybe. Nope, I read it, liked it and chose to share it. THE END.

    I've read it. It doesn't prove what your claiming in this thread.

    What am I claiming in this thread?

    Judging by the ridiculous number of threads you post on this topic, you do!

    Ridiculous to you. Whoever sold you the mind reading course really owes you a refund.
    I just sometimes like rocking the boat.
    //
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-25-2016 at 11:07 PM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by georgiaboy View Post
    Indeed, RT, erowe and hb are correct.

    Peter even speaks highly of Paul in his epistle.

    Paul spent lots of time in Jerusalem with Peter, James, and the other apostles, and was ultimately accepted by them as an apostle himself, called by Jesus Himself.

    The apostles had every reason to not want to accept Paul as an apostle -- yet they did. If they thought he was legit, so should we.

    Ergo, his writings are apostolic and scripture, and preach the same gospel as all the other apostles and Christ himself.

    It's Christianity 101, and this Jesus v. Paul stuff you're messing around with is just wrong.

    Paul and Jesus don't teach a different salvation, or different doctrines. As you're fond of google searches, try something like "the apostleship of Paul" perhaps.

    I found this: http://theos.org/media/category/124/
    Christianity 101 is that Jesus was preaching to the Jewish common people, teaching them how to have a close, personal relationship with God without the hypocrisy of the State and it's oppressive taxation and laws.

    Christianity as we know it today was totally dreamed up by Paul.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Christianity 101 is that Jesus was preaching to the Jewish common people, teaching them how to have a close, personal relationship with God without the hypocrisy of the State and it's oppressive taxation and laws.

    Christianity as we know it today was totally dreamed up by Paul.
    That's your religious dogma. So, from that starting point, of course Paul didn't really meet Jesus in the flesh. The resurrection of Jesus never happened in the first place and was an invention of Paul's.

    Notice the circularity of your argument.

    And you still can't explain why all of the people who belonged to Jesus' inner circle when he was preaching to those common people of Galilee endorsed Paul's gospel as identical with their own. You also have to remove major portions of the teachings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels and say that they were added to the tradition later under the influence of Paul because they match "Christianity as we know it today" too much.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That was a meeting in the flesh. You call it a hallucination, but none of the historical records of the meeting call it that.
    What historical records?

    You mean the writings (many authored by Paul) that were assembled to support Paul's psychotic break with reality? Which then became the State Religion adopted by the most brutal empire the world has ever seen?
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    What historical records?

    You mean the writings (many authored by Paul) that were assembled to support Paul's psychotic break with reality? Which then became the State Religion adopted by the most brutal empire the world has ever seen?
    There's that circularity again.

    The historical records I mean are the only ones that actually exist. Where are your historical records that call it a hallucination?

    Incidentally, during Paul's own lifetime he was opposed by the Roman Empire and ultimately put to death for preaching Christianity.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That's your religious dogma. So, from that starting point, of course Paul didn't really meet Jesus in the flesh. The resurrection of Jesus never happened in the first place and was an invention of Paul's.

    Notice the circularity of your argument.

    And you still can't explain why all of the people who belonged to Jesus' inner circle when he was preaching to those common people of Galilee endorsed Paul's gospel as identical with their own. You also have to remove major portions of the teachings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels and say that they were added to the tradition later under the influence of Paul because they match "Christianity as we know it today" too much.
    What "circularity"?

    The resurrection never happened in the first place because Jesus didn't die on the cross.

    On what are you basing your assertion that Jesus' inner circle endorsed Paul?
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 06-26-2016 at 08:23 AM.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Where are your historical records that call it a hallucination?
    Probably the same historical documents you refer to.

    He was seeing things that weren't there, and hearing voices.

    Merriam Webster
    : something (such as an image, a sound, or a smell) that seems real but does not really exist and that is usually caused by mental illness or the effect of a drug
    : perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD)

    Dictionary.com

    1. a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.
    2. the sensation caused by a hallucinatory condition or the object or scene visualized.
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 06-26-2016 at 06:45 AM.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  32. #28

    What You Don't Know About Paul

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I grew up accepting the 'evidence' (so called) on faith, but then I read the book again. The Paulinists AKA Christians (so called) just have no problems with ignoring and arguing the parts of the Bible that they just don't like. That's most of the reasons that I have so many of them here on ignore. They're just a total waste of time and keystrokes. TJ and others were correct, only Jesus matters.
    Ronin, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about in relation to Paul's theology. It's funny how you consider yourself more educated about the relationship between Jesus and Paul when world-renown Biblical scholars, such as N.T. Wright, have been applauded for their research and writings about Paul's life and theology.

    If you have any serious, objective interest in how Paul's theology was consistent with Christ's doctrines, then I recommend that you watch this lecture from one of the best Pauline scholars in the world, and learn something:

    N. T. Wright approaches the Apostle Paul as the world's first, and greatest, Christian theologian. Much of his lifetime study has had Paul, his life and writings, as the focus. He has offered detailed insights into Paul's life and times for over 30 years, beginning with his dissertation on Pauline Theology and Romans and continuing through his recently released, two-volume Paul and the Faithfulness of God. In between those writings, Wright has produced over 60 books, many of which have dealt with Paul, and another one is soon to be released, Paul and His Recent Interpreters.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Probably the same historical documents you refer to.

    He was seeing things that weren't there, and hearing voices.

    Merriam Webster
    : something (such as an image, a sound, or a smell) that seems real but does not really exist and that is usually caused by mental illness or the effect of a drug
    : perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD)

    Dictionary.com

    1. a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.
    2. the sensation caused by a hallucinatory condition or the object or scene visualized.
    I've seen some speculation that it might have been an epileptic seizure. There are some other speculations about it, perhaps involving Satan.

    Occam's Razor would support the 'Paul Lied' conclusion as being the most likely and most simple.
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-26-2016 at 07:00 AM.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Theo didn't do that in this thread. And King James was a "Paulinist" by your deifnition, FYI.
    NOT THE THREAD TOPIC!

    A word to the wise is usually sufficient.

    Don't push it.
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-26-2016 at 07:31 AM.

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