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Thread: To Anarchists: How do you guard against an elite into manipulating society?

  1. #1

    Question To Anarchists: How do you guard against an elite into manipulating society?

    If we go on the assumption that governments are just puppets of the mega elite, bankers, whatever, then how do you remain free from coercion from their influence?

    Naturally, they will want to seep their tentacles into everything to extract resources for themselves.

    If you disagree with this premise, then obviously this question is moot.

    But I see comments like "voting is meaningless, they decide who wins, both sides get funded" etc etc.



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  3. #2
    Seems like this question is self answerable yet no one wants to see the answer right in front of their face. Explain to me how much power big business has, absent of government coercion?
    Dishonest money makes for dishonest people.

    Andrew Napolitano, John Stossel. FOX News Liberty Infiltrators.


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    Dr. Paul is living rent-free in the minds of the neocons, and for a fiscal conservative, free rent is always a good thing
    NOBP ≠ ABO

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by roho76 View Post
    Seems like this question is self answerable yet no one wants to see the answer right in front of their face. Explain to me how much power big business has, absent of government coercion?
    I see. No government, no mega rich to coerce society.

    Unless they resort to establishing a Brave New World society, where instead of coercion, everyone is distracted by entertainment and pleasure into giving away their rights and sovereignty.

    Is it too far fetched to imagine portions of the mega rich establishing private armies to substitute for government force?
    Last edited by Son_of_Liberty90; 06-23-2016 at 10:48 PM.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    I see. No government, no mega rich to coerce society.

    Unless they resort to establishing a Brave New World society, where instead of coercion, everyone is distracted by entertainment and pleasure into giving away their rights and sovereignty.

    Is it too far fetched to imagine portions of the mega rich establishing private armies to substitute for government force?
    It is also not too far fetched to imagine that those who the mega rich seek to coerce with those private armies and others not effected but motivated to join their defensive cause could establish private armies.

    The greatest thing a government provides is legitimacy. Legitimacy dictates where the men and money will go. Without legitimacy, and with enough steadfast opposition, the end result will be the illegitimate side losing.

    So mega rich individuals do have great power in the absence of government, because they have lots of money and that too can motivate people to risk their lives, but when they fight for injustice they will find a foe that is self plenishing and with less fear of death, and will eventually drain them of their money.

    haha, typing that it kind of reminds me of what we're experiencing with our FP.

  6. #5
    ban religion
    Last edited by timosman; 06-24-2016 at 07:45 AM.

  7. #6
    You shoot when they trespass.

  8. #7
    Get real! Speculations and hypotheticals are still just running at about a dime a truckload.

    How do you manipulate a mere abstraction?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Get real! Speculations and hypotheticals are still just running at about a dime a truckload.

    How do you manipulate a mere abstraction?
    So you're saying not to ask in the first place?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    So you're saying not to ask in the first place?
    Actually, I'm suggesting asking better thought out (preferably unloaded) questions, in all places.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Actually, I'm suggesting asking better thought out (preferably unloaded) questions, in all places.
    TW. Not to be provoking. But I've been hearing you say this stuff for years, but do not hear you speak to what is to take the place of the hypotheticals many people propose and you reject.

    Start splainin'
    The wisdom of Swordy:

    On bringing the troops home
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They are coming home, all the naysayers said they would never leave Syria and then they said they were going to stay in Iraq forever.

    It won't take very long to get them home but it won't be overnight either but Iraq says they can't stay and they are coming home just like Trump said.

    On fighting corruption:
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump had to donate the "right way" and hang out with the "right people" in order to do business in NYC and Hollyweird and in order to investigate and expose them.
    Fascism Defined

  13. #11
    I've always thought of it in limits of law and legitimacy too. Tyranny of the individual or several individuals is preferable to tyranny of an entire Collective group. The least amount of control over another's life the better off people are to escape tyranny.
    The wisdom of Swordy:

    On bringing the troops home
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They are coming home, all the naysayers said they would never leave Syria and then they said they were going to stay in Iraq forever.

    It won't take very long to get them home but it won't be overnight either but Iraq says they can't stay and they are coming home just like Trump said.

    On fighting corruption:
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump had to donate the "right way" and hang out with the "right people" in order to do business in NYC and Hollyweird and in order to investigate and expose them.
    Fascism Defined

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    You shoot when they trespass.
    Bingo! Anarchy makes every man their own master. If someone trespasses on you you have every right to respond as you see fit. I'm sure that these rich bastards would be watching their backs pretty close in a society where they did not have the goonerment goons doing their dirty work for them. There would still be "rich" people but I highly doubt that there would be many "ultra-rich" because quite frankly, I think most of them are crooks and crooks would get their just deserts at some point by someone they crossed...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
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  15. #13
    I always just assumed the anarchist plan on preventing it, was getting rid of roads, to keep things local
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    TW. Not to be provoking. But I've been hearing you say this stuff for years, but do not hear you speak to what is to take the place of the hypotheticals many people propose and you reject.

    Start splainin'
    An example of my hypothetical 'stuff for years' please, would really be very helpful. Thanks!

    I doubt I reject very many non-hypotheticals, out of hand.

  17. #15
    See: feudalism
    Carthago Delenda Est

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I always just assumed the anarchist plan on preventing it, was getting rid of roads, to keep things local
    If we were ever to see an "anarchist" society we wouldn't need roads. Everyone would be flying to their destination in affordable aircraft...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    If we were ever to see an "anarchist" society we wouldn't need roads. Everyone would be flying to their destination in affordable aircraft...
    +Rep!

    "The thought of how far the human race [might] have advanced without government simply staggers the imagination." -- Attributed to Doug Casey, 1979

    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-24-2016 at 02:16 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrestPoliticians View Post
    See: feudalism
    How much of an archy was that?

  22. #19
    Fellow statelessness advocates... I'm seriously thinking about starting a site that numbers these questions and provides the answers in one place. We could refer people to that site when they're asked, and even keep statistics on what the most popular erroneous objections are.

    Son_of_Liberty90, I personally believe that both anarchists and statists have their eyes on the wrong problem. I also admit that the standard answers anarchists give to this particular question generally fall flat.

    First of all, your question basically boils down to "how do we prevent X from doing Y". This is the wrong question because it presumes that it is someone's business to prevent people from doing bad things. I disagree with that, pretty much completely.

    "How do we prevent kids from getting addicted to meth?"
    The answer becomes "We ban all drugs and make everyone's life totally miserable, including cancer patients and children who have 100 seizures per day."

    "How do we prevent people from dying in car accidents?"
    The answer becomes "We force them to shackle themselves to the vehicle, and force their children to sit in boosters until they have high school diplomas, and we fine them heavily for not doing it and take their children from them when they don't do it."

    The basic statist liberty position touches on this by rejecting the notion that the state needs to do anything at all about these problems. But it only touches on it - it doesn't follow through. It rejects the idea of the state interfering in these areas but doesn't suggest an alternative besides "You know what, $#@! it, just ignore the problem".

    Anarchists generally take the "$#@! it" response to its extreme - not just "$#@! this problem" but "$#@! every problem". I think it's a more valid position if you take market forces into consideration. Markets can pick up where the state left off, and markets are always more efficient in solving problems than the state.

    However, the very first thing you have to do if you're solving a problem is to define the problem. As stated above, you're thinking the problem is "how do we throw weight around and stop something from happening".

    This is because you're stuck in a statutory legal system mindset. Our legal systems - pretty much all of them - are hopelessly off-base. Every legal system in the world is designed around the notion of "how do we stop X from doing Y". We're all sent through 12 years of mandatory indoctrination to believe this is right, this is truth, this is laudable. But it's not. It's a crock of $#@!.

    A legal system - a just legal system, a legal system concerned with what is right and wrong and not just pushing people around all the time - would focus on how to remedy situations when they go wrong. There would be little or even no attention paid to stopping X from doing Y.
    A just legal system would concern itself with questions which are totally alien to our current system. Questions like:

    -Is there a victim? Or in other words, was something done which is actually wrong?
    -Can anything be done to make right by the victim?

    And those would fracture off into other important questions, like whether there is any precedent for considering something wrong, and what was done to make it right in those cases.

    There would be no "round them all up and stick them in rape cages and ruin their reputations and chances for employment for the rest of their lives" in such a system.

    Now I'm not blowing smoke here - I'm not talking hypotheticals. This is - IS - what mankind would focus on if given the freedom to organically grow a legal system using market forces. This is - IS - what mankind would consider just.
    I know this because in cases where mankind has been ALLOWED to organically grow a legal system using market forces, this is what happened.

    The problem didn't become "how do we push people around and make them behave". They recognized the fundamental problem as "how do we achieve justice when people don't behave".

    If the latter is your question, there are answers. But you're taking the former question, an overtly statist problem - a problem that has so little market for it that the state has had to monopolize it - and assuming a stateless society would try to solve it. It wouldn't. Because there would be no demand to solve it.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    If we were ever to see an "anarchist" society we wouldn't need roads. Everyone would be flying to their destination in affordable aircraft...
    Without the FAA to keep us safe??!!?

    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Without the FAA to keep us safe??!!?

    How many plane crash deaths and injuries have there been, since we got an FAA?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    How many plane crash deaths and injuries have there been, since we got an FAA?
    Except for that one time in 2001 we're doing pretty good

    Egypt air, Malaysian, not so much - i bet they wish they had FAA
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  26. #23
    How do you guard against an elite into manipulating society?
    Well for starters, you could just laugh at them.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Without the FAA to keep us safe??!!?

    Well, yeah...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.



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  29. #25
    If I were mega rich, I would buy a lot of land, then hire mercenaries to build a mega army. Then I would forcibly take land and property from people. I would start with the weak ones first. You know the anarchists who decide they need no one and stand alone. If people start banding together to oppose me than i would just buy influence from their leaders with my deep pockets.
    A sense of danger gives birth to fear. And fear is the time-honored cross for the crucifixion of liberty.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    If I were mega rich, I would buy a lot of land, then hire mercenaries to build a mega army. Then I would forcibly take land and property from people. I would start with the weak ones first. You know the anarchists who decide they need no one and stand alone. If people start banding together to oppose me than i would just buy influence from their leaders with my deep pockets.
    And without the government monopoly on force you might be dead within a week.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Except for that one time in 2001 we're doing pretty good

    Egypt air, Malaysian, not so much - i bet they wish they had FAA
    How old is the FAA?

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    How old is the FAA?
    It's probably been around since the Wright Brothers, otherwise dunno how they would have taken off safely.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  33. #29
    Running the risk of just summarizing what I stated earlier, I think the principles that answer the heart of the OP's question... as I understand it of course.. is this:

    people are willing to risk their lives in the pursuit of money, people are willing to give their life in the pursuit of justice.

    people are generally good and therefore, if equipped with factual information, will generally support the defender over the aggressor.

    I think this is human nature you can see everyday.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    It's probably been around since the Wright Brothers, otherwise dunno how they would have taken off safely.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa...ration#History

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