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Thread: To Anarchists: How do you guard against an elite into manipulating society?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    If we go on the assumption that governments are just puppets of the mega elite, bankers, whatever, then how do you remain free from coercion from their influence?

    Naturally, they will want to seep their tentacles into everything to extract resources for themselves.

    If you disagree with this premise, then obviously this question is moot.

    But I see comments like "voting is meaningless, they decide who wins, both sides get funded" etc etc.
    How does voting protect against the same thing? Or do you not live in a country where teh corrupt and powerful manipulate the masses? Anarchy gets rid of the tool of mass control- the state



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  3. #32

    Cracks in the Bedrock of Anarchy

    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    If we go on the assumption that governments are just puppets of the mega elite, bankers, whatever, then how do you remain free from coercion from their influence?

    Naturally, they will want to seep their tentacles into everything to extract resources for themselves.

    If you disagree with this premise, then obviously this question is moot.

    But I see comments like "voting is meaningless, they decide who wins, both sides get funded" etc etc.
    When you read much of the literature in favor of anarchism, it seems that anarchism starts off with 5 basic assumptions, philosophically speaking:

    • Truth is relative.
    • Life is random.
    • People are basically good.
    • A person can change his own life if he chooses to.
    • The goal of life is self-satisfaction.

    Building a civic/economic philosophy on those basic assumptions opens the door wide open for an elite group to manipulate society very easily, in my opinion. Thus, anarchism (no matter if it's anarcho-capitalism, anatcho-communism, anarcho-primitivism, or any other school of thought) cannot solve the problem of having an elite manipulating and ruling over society.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    When you read much of the literature in favor of anarchism, it seems that anarchism starts off with 5 basic assumptions, philosophically speaking:

    • Truth is relative.
    • Life is random.
    • People are basically good.
    • A person can change his own life if he chooses to.
    • The goal of life is self-satisfaction.

    Building a civic/economic philosophy on those basic assumptions opens the door wide open for an elite group to manipulate society very easily, in my opinion. Thus, anarchism (no matter if it's anarcho-capitalism, anatcho-communism, anarcho-primitivism, or any other school of thought) cannot solve the problem of having an elite manipulating and ruling over society.
    Jesus Is an Anarchist (pdf)

    Paul WAS a statist.

    The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude (pdf)

    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-25-2016 at 05:48 AM.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Without the FAA to keep us safe??!!?
    But who would; build the runways? 'curb noise pollution? 'maintain inverted wedding cakes?
    'mandate transponders? 'prevent green poop-ice from raining down on unsuspecting children?

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by FindLiberty View Post
    But who would; build the runways? 'curb noise pollution? 'maintain inverted wedding cakes?
    'mandate transponders? 'prevent green poop-ice from raining down on unsuspecting children?
    Who does it now? <shrug>

  8. #36

    Wrong Terms Make for Bad Hermeneutics

    The claims that Jesus was an anarchist and that Paul was a statist are simply anachronisms. As such, they make both of your assertions moot points, so there's no need to argue with you about the merits of your claims.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    The claims that Jesus was an anarchist and that Paul was a statist are simply anachronisms. As such, they make both of your assertions moot points, so there's no need to argue with you about the merits of your claims.
    Not really looking for any arguments, but any old lame excuses will suffice. Just go and keep on arguing with your Bible.

  10. #38
    All societies will have elites who manage to climb their way to the top one way or another. There's no way of preventing that. Better to formalize the elite into an open aristocracy than trying to constantly make sure that there are no elites through whatever schemes you can come up with.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    All societies will have elites who manage to climb their way to the top one way or another. There's no way of preventing that. Better to formalize the elite into an open aristocracy than trying to constantly make sure that there are no elites through whatever schemes you can come up with.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...han-a-Republic

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    The claims that Jesus was an anarchist and that Paul was a statist are simply anachronisms. As such, they make both of your assertions moot points, so there's no need to argue with you about the merits of your claims.
    Seriously, just don't engage Ronin on his unsourced crackpot ideas about Christianity.

    Let's stick to your unsourced crackpot ideas about anarchist writing. I've never read anything that supports those five ideas. I admit that anarchist ideas rely on point 3, that people are basically good. Is your problem with this that it violates your theology? Because yes, people are sinful and they are jerks, but I see the goodness of people winning over their badness in uncontrolled systems on a daily basis and do not consider it up for debate.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  14. #41

    For Goodness' Sake

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Seriously, just don't engage Ronin on his unsourced crackpot ideas about Christianity.

    Let's stick to your unsourced crackpot ideas about anarchist writing. I've never read anything that supports those five ideas. I admit that anarchist ideas rely on point 3, that people are basically good. Is your problem with this that it violates your theology? Because yes, people are sinful and they are jerks, but I see the goodness of people winning over their badness in uncontrolled systems on a daily basis and do not consider it up for debate.
    What "uncontrolled systems" are you referring to, fisharmor?
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  15. #42
    If you think that having an elite subset of society manipulate the rest by force is a bad thing, then that makes you an anarchist. Does it not?

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    What "uncontrolled systems" are you referring to, fisharmor?
    Everything, from the several dozen uncontrolled lines you wait in every month, to the operating system and web server software which are making our current exchange possible.

    To clarify, I do not mean these systems are totally uncontrolled by any means at all: I mean what anarchists here always mean, which is that there is no monopoly control. It is self evident all around you, every single day of your life, that mankind does not need a state to order his affairs.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Because yes, people are sinful and they are jerks, but I see the goodness of people winning over their badness in uncontrolled systems on a daily basis and do not consider it up for debate.
    I'm not so sure that that's what you really are seeing on a daily basis.

    It might be more like this. People do good things more than bad because it's usually in their self-interest. I think this still supports anarchy though, because one of the boons of the free market is that it takes peoples' greed and redirects it into the service of others, so that those who serve others the most also profit the most.

  18. #45
    Right, erowe, so there are only two possibilities there: either people are acting out of goodness and it's a valid anarchist talking point out of Theo's five listed, or they aren't acting out of goodness and it's not a valid observation about anarchist philosophy.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Seriously, just don't engage Ronin on his unsourced crackpot ideas about Christianity.

    Let's stick to your unsourced crackpot ideas about anarchist writing. I've never read anything that supports those five ideas. I admit that anarchist ideas rely on point 3, that people are basically good. Is your problem with this that it violates your theology? Because yes, people are sinful and they are jerks, but I see the goodness of people winning over their badness in uncontrolled systems on a daily basis and do not consider it up for debate.
    Hey, the source of my crackpot Paulinism AKA Christian (so called) ideas is the Sacred Holy Word of God Bible. Do you want to argue with it too? Maybe you and Theocrat can get on opposite sides of some Biblical questions and just have some really fun times with them.

    Folks just seem to want to keep on explaining this stuff to me. They obviously don't really know or understand it themselves, or what they're talking about. I'm neither a child nor an idiot. I can read very well and do and have for some decades now.

  20. #47
    Perhaps you're not a child, but I am also capable of following my own advice and not engaging you. Stop derailing the conversation.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Perhaps you're not a child, but I am also capable of following my own advice and not engaging you. Stop derailing the conversation.
    Stop telling me what to do. No one died and made you shepherd. It's not even your thread and I ain't the thread topic.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    If we go on the assumption that governments are just puppets of the mega elite, bankers, whatever, then how do you remain free from coercion from their influence?

    Naturally, they will want to seep their tentacles into everything to extract resources for themselves.

    If you disagree with this premise, then obviously this question is moot.

    But I see comments like "voting is meaningless, they decide who wins, both sides get funded" etc etc.
    Question. If you assume that governments are just puppets of the mega elite, bankers, whatever, then why do you worry about stopping their influence? If they are going to have coercive influence anyway whether or not there is a government they way pay taxes to have a government? Isn't that like sacrificing captives in order to prevent a solar eclipse and or make it end "early?"
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #50

    The Only Elite is God Himself

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    If you think that having an elite subset of society manipulate the rest by force is a bad thing, then that makes you an anarchist. Does it not?
    No, it doesn't make me an anarchist; it just means that I hold to the view that God rules society, and therefore, He is the One Who delegates authority (those who minister to others) and sets their jurisdictions within a civilized society. That's why an elite subset of society should never manipulate the rest by force. All people should be self-governed by God's Law before they take any position of authority within God-ordained governments (family, church, and state) to ensure that an elite group do not take over society by their own whims. When that happens (as it is currently in American civics), then it is a good indication that people in positions of authority are not self-governing themselves in God's Law.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    No, it doesn't make me an anarchist; it just means that I hold to the view that God rules society, and therefore, He is the One Who delegates authority (those who minister to others) and sets their jurisdictions within a civilized society. That's why an elite subset of society should never manipulate the rest by force. All people should be self-governed by God's Law before they take any position of authority within God-ordained governments (family, church, and state) to ensure that an elite group do not take over society by their own whims. When that happens (as it is currently in American civics), then it is a good indication that people in positions of authority are not self-governing themselves in God's Law.
    And how does one determine a "God-ordained goonerment"? Can you show me a "delegation order" signed by God? What does God's signature look like?

    Was Hitler "God-ordained"? Was Cesar? Or were only certain Ceasars ordained and others (the so-called bad ones) not? Do we have to wait until after a regime to determine if their goon was "God-ordained"?
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    And how does one determine a "God-ordained goonerment"? Can you show me a "delegation order" signed by God? What does God's signature look like?

    Was Hitler "God-ordained"? Was Cesar? Or were only certain Ceasars ordained and others (the so-called bad ones) not? Do we have to wait until after a regime to determine if their goon was "God-ordained"?
    Equally important is whose God?

    I keep reading about this Allah fellow, then there's the state worshipers and the money worshipers....

  27. #53

    By the Only Standard

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    And how does one determine a "God-ordained goonerment"? Can you show me a "delegation order" signed by God? What does God's signature look like?
    If you're a Christian, then you should already know how one determines what governments God has ordained. That's why we have disciplines such as Biblical and systematic theology to delve into the subject on what the Bible teaches about the nature of government. But it is a topic that can be ascertained, and it is one that no other worldview (secular humanism, Islam, etc.) can account for.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    If you're a Christian, then you should already know how one determines what governments God has ordained. That's why we have disciplines such as Biblical and systematic theology to delve into the subject on what the Bible teaches about the nature of government. But it is a topic that can be ascertained, and it is one that no other worldview (secular humanism, Islam, etc.) can account for.
    As a Christian I have trouble squaring the separation of church and state with your approach...

    I believe that this is specified specifically so that no particular religious faction can use their interpretation of scripture to further their aims against people of other religion(s).

    Maybe you'd care to enlighten me with the particular sect of Christianity that you would have govern? (Please be specific)

    If you have the guts to answer the previous question (doubtful) why should that sect prevail over all the others?

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    If you're a Christian, then you should already know how one determines what governments God has ordained. That's why we have disciplines such as Biblical and systematic theology to delve into the subject on what the Bible teaches about the nature of government. But it is a topic that can be ascertained, and it is one that no other worldview (secular humanism, Islam, etc.) can account for.
    Wow, I guess I'm not a "Christian" then because I certainly DO NOT know how to determine what goonerments God has ordained... Is it only those "who do God's will"? If that's the case, show me ONE goonerment that actually does "God's will"...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Equally important is whose God?

    I keep reading about this Allah fellow, then there's the state worshipers and the money worshipers....
    There is of course only "one God" if you refer to "God" as "Creator" (I prefer that term actually). This way you avoid all doctrinal issues. Referring to God as Creator rules out confusion as to whom you are speaking. The Creator is an idea that spans "religion" and makes it clear that you are talking about the one deity that was actually responsible for creation. One can say there is no "Creator" but then one has to either make up some "natural" way for the universe to have come about or simply not speculate at all.

    So in answer to your question "whose God" you really have to change it to "what God" since no one can "own" God. The answer to "what God" is ... The Creator...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.



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  32. #57

    A "Bottom-Up" Approach

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    As a Christian I have trouble squaring the separation of church and state with your approach...

    I believe that this is specified specifically so that no particular religious faction can use their interpretation of scripture to further their aims against people of other religion(s).

    Maybe you'd care to enlighten me with the particular sect of Christianity that you would have govern? (Please be specific)

    If you have the guts to answer the previous question (doubtful) why should that sect prevail over all the others?
    I believe in the decentralization of power, which is a Biblical principle, first derived in Genesis with the formation of the tribes of Israel (I don't have time to delve deeply into that, but it can be proven). So, to answer your question, I would advocate a system that is similar to what we had in our early republic, where local, state, and county governments are formed by Christians from various denominations to assess how crimes should be punished within their respective jurisdictions. So, for example, if a Presbyterian is living in a county full of Roman Catholics, and those Catholics have laws which he believes do not square with Biblical justice, then he can find another county where there are mostly Presbyterians and from there, they can work together to apply God's Law based on their Biblical convictions.

    That's what we had in the earlier days of America, with entire states being composed of one Christian denomination from another state of a different Christian denomination. It's one of the reasons why the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," because their definition of "religion" was related to Christian denominations, understanding that each state was by and large composed of a particular Christian denomination.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    I believe in the decentralization of power, which is a Biblical principle, first derived in Genesis with the formation of the tribes of Israel (I don't have time to delve deeply into that, but it can be proven). So, to answer your question, I would advocate a system that is similar to what we had in our early republic, where local, state, and county governments are formed by Christians from various denominations to assess how crimes should be punished within their respective jurisdictions. So, for example, if a Presbyterian is living in a county full of Roman Catholics, and those Catholics have laws which he believes do not square with Biblical justice, then he can find another county where there are mostly Presbyterians and from there, they can work together to apply God's Law based on their Biblical convictions.

    That's what we had in the earlier days of America, with entire states being composed of one Christian denomination from another state of a different Christian denomination. It's one of the reasons why the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," because their definition of "religion" was related to Christian denominations, understanding that each state was by and large composed of a particular Christian denomination.
    So you're advocating kicking out all other religions and atheists/agnostics?

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    And how does one determine a "God-ordained goonerment"? Can you show me a "delegation order" signed by God? What does God's signature look like?

    Was Hitler "God-ordained"? Was Cesar? Or were only certain Ceasars ordained and others (the so-called bad ones) not? Do we have to wait until after a regime to determine if their goon was "God-ordained"?
    Never mind, Theo much prefers his made up partial Bible to the REAL one.

    Satan rules and controls ALL human governments. Human governments are a rejection of God.

  35. #60
    Hey everyone, here is Theocrat's god at work:



    I'm not so beholden to a single interpretation of a book that I can believe this is the one true god doing his thing.

    Are you familiar with the work of Charlie Eipper, Theocrat? Can I assume you're a fan?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

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