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Thread: My response to Laurence Vance's "Should a Christian support criminalizing prostitution"

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    Overall that was a well worded response to a dubiously argued point by Laurence Vance. Although I've only had time to read through Lawrence Vance's original post once, his problem is that he is not making distinctions between Judicial laws in the OT that have both Moral-Natural and Moral-Positive connotations, in other words, moral precepts that apply at all times and places (natural) and moral precepts that were applied specific to Israel but carried permanent moral teachings. Your response to him could have gotten a bit more specifically into why he was messing up by conflating principles of general equity with ceremonial laws, but that may have been a waste of time since he is falling into the trap of thinking that Christ's coming wiped out the entire Old Testament from any consideration.

    Does Vance identify as a Protestant or a Romanist? Most of Lew Rockwell's writers are Papists and mixing up natural and positive law is a massive problem in Roman theology, but if he's a self-described Protestant, it appears he's been bitten by the Antinomian bug and fixing that mess would be a daunting task.
    Vance is a dispensationalist and "fundamental" baptist, which in my mind isn't much better than some of the better Romanists. These days I only call Presbyterians and other Reformed, Lutherans, and Anglicans "Protestants".... baptists of any stripe are a different breed entirely and while some are faithful Christians, they arent Protestants in any historical sense. Considering Vance's type he may call himself Protestant or be one of those "i'm a baptist not a Protestant" types. Not sure.

    Yeah, I think he has the "only the New Testament is applicable" thing at its root.

    The one area of disagreement on this that we may hold, depending on how much you are relying on Modern Theonomist thought here, is whether or not you think that the magistrate if required to adhere to the regulative principle or if it is simply charged with maintaining the natural-moral law and promoting general equity in light of the True Religion, the latter naturally being a bit dicey since America systematically renounced the True Religion more than 200 years ago.
    I hold to the regulative principle of civil government in some sense though I do not call myself a reconstructionist. This was something I wanted to discuss with you at some point.
    Prostitution should be discouraged civilly via law in the same way that other species of 7th commandment violations that reach a similar level of aggravation, but magistracy in a culture as deformed and depraved as post-Christian America is in a similar situation as the Roman Empire, thus any attempt to enforce biblical law without an eye to practicality of circumstance wherein the positive aspects of judicial law is concerned would be folly. The wisdom of Augustine of Hippo on this point is applicable in this modern context, and if John Calvin were in a societal situation similar to this one, he'd probably come to a similar conclusion.
    I suspect Calvin would agree with you. I am more curious (though in bringing this up I don't mean to deny that you would know better than me) whether George Gillespie would considering, though he did hold to the normative principle of civil magistracy (something I'm not in agreement with) he did believe that all of the judicial death penalties were binding in all nations. That said, I'm not sure that would rule out a (fixed and gradual) transition period. I havent fully developed a theory here beyond saying that only those who led the nation into sin can possibly be punished ex post facto from 2 Kings 23. I welcome any thoughts you might have on any of these points.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Vance is a dispensationalist and "fundamental" baptist, which in my mind isn't much better than some of the better Romanists. These days I only call Presbyterians and other Reformed, Lutherans, and Anglicans "Protestants".... baptists of any stripe are a different breed entirely and while some are faithful Christians, they arent Protestants in any historical sense. Considering Vance's type he may call himself Protestant or be one of those "i'm a baptist not a Protestant" types. Not sure.

    Yeah, I think he has the "only the New Testament is applicable" thing at its root.
    So, basically he's another anti-confessional, independent, apocalyptic Evangelical, there's millions more where that came from. I wonder why Rockwell is employing all of these status quo fools to his ranks, isn't he trying to anti-establishment?

    I hold to the regulative principle of civil government in some sense though I do not call myself a reconstructionist. This was something I wanted to discuss with you at some point.
    I've been rereading some of James Dodson's critiques on both Reconstructionism and also Antinomianism, which is why I asked the question regarding how you treat magistracy. I know you've been transitioning out of a home environment that is not completely friendly to confessional doctrine, so I didn't want to push this issue too hard since most who come to the confessional Reformed position tend to go through a transitional period where they look into Reconstructionist authors.

    I suspect Calvin would agree with you. I am more curious (though in bringing this up I don't mean to deny that you would know better than me) whether George Gillespie would considering, though he did hold to the normative principle of civil magistracy (something I'm not in agreement with) he did believe that all of the judicial death penalties were binding in all nations. That said, I'm not sure that would rule out a (fixed and gradual) transition period. I havent fully developed a theory here beyond saying that only those who led the nation into sin can possibly be punished ex post facto from 2 Kings 23. I welcome any thoughts you might have on any of these points.
    I had this talk with James Dodson at one point and he gave me some literature about Gillespie. As far as I can tell, and I'm not 100% on this, but I am pretty sure he was in agreement with the standard Covenanter stance that the death penalty with regard to breaking the 4th commandment was abrogated, though he did support civil punishments for openly breaking blue laws regarding the Lord's Day.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Gillespie was dealing with a very different situation than what constitutes modern thought, the whole rationalism/skepticism thing that came in with the Scottish Freemasons was not an issue at the time, nor were there people openly denying cut and dry stuff regarding natural law such as openly excusing, let alone condoning sodomy and infanticide. Supporting a normative principle of civil magistracy is a matter of practicality, especially when dealing with a magistrate that is ambivalent on the matter of True Religion, which was the case with the Roman Empire prior to the period of persecution. The notion that one begins by purifying the church and then projecting that purity outward with hopes of swaying the surrounding population and then eventually the magistrate is not a retreat to moral toleration, but a practical way of undermining societal corruption without falling into the Circumcellion error of inviting persecution upon the church out of a distorted view of martyrdom.

    2 Kings 23 is actually a model for what should occur if a head of state were to be converted and had the necessary influence to cleanse a nation of idolatry and moral depravity, but what you've said here has some degree of bearing with regard to judicial punishment in the cases of less aggravated infractions of the moral law. Capitol crimes specifically spelled out in the Pentateuch could still warrant a death sentence if they are of a proper degree of aggravation specific to their moral connotation, but this doesn't not mean that all cases require the maximum penalty, nor that one starts employing type-based modes of execution like stoning, nor does it necessitate any employment of what could be called cruel and unusual punishment. In the example of prostitution, even the OT recognizes a distinction between simple fornication vs. adultery and employs different judicial penalties, even though both are sins under the 7th commandment.
    Last edited by hells_unicorn; 06-23-2016 at 11:03 PM.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    So, basically he's another anti-confessional, independent, apocalyptic Evangelical, there's millions more where that came from. I wonder why Rockwell is employing all of these status quo fools to his ranks, isn't he trying to anti-establishment?
    LOL! I think Rockwell is only concerned with the political aspect and not the theologian, Vance is a radical libertarian, ergo Rockwell is pleased. They don't want the same kind of holistic Reformation we want. Some of his writers are atheists as well.




    I've been rereading some of James Dodson's critiques on both Reconstructionism and also Antinomianism, which is why I asked the question regarding how you treat magistracy. I know you've been transitioning out of a home environment that is not completely friendly to confessional doctrine, so I didn't want to push this issue too hard since most who come to the confessional Reformed position tend to go through a transitional period where they look into Reconstructionist authors.
    Do any of these happen to be available online? Because I'd be curious to read what he says about it if they are available.

    As for my home environment oh very much yes. I'm definitely looking to leave the church I'm in right now (In public I'll simply say that its not the best), though I'll likely have the choice between an OPC or a church that is probably as conservative as the WPCUS but quasi-congregational. I'm leaning towards the latter right now despite very much disliking the form of government, but at any rate i'm likely going to end up in one or the other. Either way I am going to be leaving the baptistic church I'm in right now before too long and am grateful to God that he's allowed me to do so in a mostly peaceful fashion.




    I had this talk with James Dodson at one point and he gave me some literature about Gillespie. As far as I can tell, and I'm not 100% on this, but I am pretty sure he was in agreement with the standard Covenanter stance that the death penalty with regard to breaking the 4th commandment was abrogated, though he did support civil punishments for openly breaking blue laws regarding the Lord's Day.
    Either James is wrong here or Gillespie changed his mind, since I have a direct quote from Wholesome Severity that says otherwise:

    2. That judicial law for having two or three witnesses in judgment (Deut. 19:15, Heb. 10:28), is transferred even with an obligation to us Christians, and it concerns all judgment, as well ecclesiastical as civil (Matt. 18:16; 2 Cor. 13:1), and some other particulars might be instanced, in which are pressed and enforced from the judicial law, by some who yet mind not the obligation of it. To conclude therefore this point, though other judicial or forensical laws concerning the punishments of sins against the moral law may, yea, must be allowed of in Christian Republics and Kingdoms; provided always, they are not contrary or contradictory to God’s own judicial laws; yet I fear not to hold with Junius, De Politiæ Mosis, that he who was punishable by death under the judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now. And so much for the first argument from the Law of God.
    [/QUOTE]

    https://www.naphtali.com/articles/ge...some-severity/

    (Type in the phrase "punished by death" and you should find it... that's how I found it since I've referenced this quote a few different times.)



    One thing to keep in mind is that Gillespie was dealing with a very different situation than what constitutes modern thought, the whole rationalism/skepticism thing that came in with the Scottish Freemasons was not an issue at the time, nor were there people openly denying cut and dry stuff regarding natural law such as openly excusing, let alone condoning sodomy and infanticide. Supporting a normative principle of civil magistracy is a matter of practicality, especially when dealing with a magistrate that is ambivalent on the matter of True Religion, which was the case with the Roman Empire prior to the period of persecution. The notion that one begins by purifying the church and then projecting that purity outward with hopes of swaying the surrounding population and then eventually the magistrate is not a retreat to moral toleration, but a practical way of undermining societal corruption without falling into the Circumcellion error of inviting persecution upon the church out of a distorted view of martyrdom.
    I understand, and I'm under no illusions that theonomy is going to be instituted tomorrow, though I would certainly love it if God would raise up a leader that had the guts to do so. But I still believe that's what civil magistrates are ethically bound to. Maybe that's not practical enough, but I don't think WCF 23.3 in its original form (which I understand doesn't necessarily teach theonomy per say) is particularly "practical" in our current state either, and yet I think you would say civil magistrates are bound to it. That doesn't mean we be revolutionaries, it means we teach the nation, including the government, all that God commands including his judicial laws.
    2 Kings 23 is actually a model for what should occur if a head of state were to be converted and had the necessary influence to cleanse a nation of idolatry and moral depravity, but what you've said here has some degree of bearing with regard to judicial punishment in the cases of less aggravated infractions of the moral law. Capitol crimes specifically spelled out in the Pentateuch could still warrant a death sentence if they are of a proper degree of aggravation specific to their moral connotation, but this doesn't not mean that all cases require the maximum penalty,
    It seems to me that murder, blasphemy, and spreading of damnable heresies (Deuteronomy 13) all always warrant death penalties from my best reading of the text, but I think its possible that all of the other capital crimes were judicial maximums.

    nor that one starts employing type-based modes of execution like stoning,
    I dont think stoning is required, though I think its possible (I am not certain) that a community enforced method would fall under general equity. I'm not sure.

    nor does it necessitate any employment of what could be called cruel and unusual punishment.
    I certainly agree, furthermore, "religious right" types that are OK with torture and life imprisonment need to pay attention.
    In the example of prostitution, even the OT recognizes a distinction between simple fornication vs. adultery and employs different judicial penalties, even though both are sins under the 7th commandment.
    Yes, I realize this, I believe I mentioned it in the blog I wrote. Fornicators were required to marry each other, while adulterers were punished by death (though from what I understand the aggreived party could forgo the punishment.) Any God honoring nation should go back to that, IMO.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    It doesn't matter which of the two tod evans was referring to because both of them are judgments of a sexual act. That was simply my point.

    Now, concerning how that relates to this thread, as Christians, we know the Bible teaches that God is sovereign over His creation, which means that He has authority over every aspect of human life. So, when we are discussing public policy about certain behaviors which are public taboos in our society, then our first question to ask is, "What has God said about it?" From there, we use wisdom from the Scriptures to understand how that behavior ought to be dealt with in society by all levels of government (self, family, church, and civil) in order to please God.
    Asking "What does God say about X" and "Should X be criminalized" are two different things. What does God say about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Worst possible sin. What did Jesus say about the Samaritan village that was actively taking steps in that direction? Shake the dust off your feet and move on. You and other theocrats are trying to live under the old testament and the new testament at the same time. Jesus called that putting new wine in old wineskins. All you do is ruin both. Look at the misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 22 by Christian Liberty early in this thread. He has to misinterpret the old testament in order for his cockamamie theory not to seem totally abhorrent. Rape victims are married to their rapists and if they get married again to someone else they have committed adultery and should be stoned. That is the logical conclusion of the steps Christian Liberty takes to get to his idea of criminalizing prostitution. In order to get around that, he changed the clear meaning of Deut 22 from rape of a virgin to seduction of a virgin. And now that I've busted him on it, he won't reply because he knows he's wrong.

    But that is the problem in general with the way you, he, and to a much lesser extent Sola_Fide, approach the old testament. You do it without any regards to context or to the later words of Jesus. Oh you apply the new testament (badly IMO) when there are parts of the OT that you personally don't believe (remember the Sabbath), but if it's something that affects someone else? The NT doesn't matter. Again go back to Deuteronomy 22. It clearly says the "punishment" for a man who rapes a virgin is that he must marry her and cannot divorce her. It says nothing about killing the man. It says nothing about putting the man in prison. And it says nothing about the age of the rape victim. Would you really apply that standard in 2016? A man rapes a 15 year old girl who is still a virgin and you say "Well God said he has to marry her so I guess they have to get married?" Really?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I don't want to sepak for my family because they're evangelicals and thus we don't agree much on theology.

    But speaking for myself.

    The church should only discipline those who are a part of it. Thus the church, as the church, should not shun homosexuals, fornicators, etc. unless they are identifying as CHristians. If they are identifying as such we should "not even eat" with them, something that is rarely truly followed.

    However, families should discipline their households, and civil governments should discipline their subjects, whether they are believers or not. So yes, as a head of household I would not allow anyone to engage in homosexual contact, nor would I allow them to work the sabbath, etc. And yes, if they continually did these things and didn't repent, I would throw them out.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you on "focus" especially considering how corrupt most of the nation is right now. But that doesn't change the fact that civil magistrates have obligations and "libertarianism" really isnt it in the scripture.
    Cool. Rule your household as you see fit. That's what all people should do. But the Sabbath is not Sunday. It just isn't. Maybe TER will chime in on this, but the Christian historical record is clear. Christians did not believe the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. At some point, TER would say since the apostles but I would say much later, the "Sabbath" and "the Lord's Day" were both kept. Then for the "official" church the Sabbath was by in large phased out.

    So here again we have a problem with applying what you feel is morally right to the larger civil society. So the government enforce the sanctity of Sabbath especially when most Christians are confused as to which day it is?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Cool. Rule your household as you see fit. That's what all people should do. But the Sabbath is not Sunday. It just isn't. Maybe TER will chime in on this, but the Christian historical record is clear. Christians did not believe the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. At some point, TER would say since the apostles but I would say much later, the "Sabbath" and "the Lord's Day" were both kept. Then for the "official" church the Sabbath was by in large phased out.

    So here again we have a problem with applying what you feel is morally right to the larger civil society. So the government enforce the sanctity of Sabbath especially when most Christians are confused as to which day it is?
    You're simply wrong about this Jm, and since you're wrong about this, of course you're not going to agree with my position on it. But the Biblical view is that sunday is the Christian Sabbath.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Asking "What does God say about X" and "Should X be criminalized" are two different things. What does God say about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Worst possible sin. What did Jesus say about the Samaritan village that was actively taking steps in that direction? Shake the dust off your feet and move on. You and other theocrats are trying to live under the old testament and the new testament at the same time. Jesus called that putting new wine in old wineskins. All you do is ruin both. Look at the misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 22 by Christian Liberty early in this thread. He has to misinterpret the old testament in order for his cockamamie theory not to seem totally abhorrent. Rape victims are married to their rapists and if they get married again to someone else they have committed adultery and should be stoned. That is the logical conclusion of the steps Christian Liberty takes to get to his idea of criminalizing prostitution. In order to get around that, he changed the clear meaning of Deut 22 from rape of a virgin to seduction of a virgin. And now that I've busted him on it, he won't reply because he knows he's wrong.
    I don't "know" any such thing ,but talking to you feels like talking to a secular who starts shouting about how terrible scriptures are because they have never been taught basic hermaneutics in their life. I don't know where to start.


    But that is the problem in general with the way you, he, and to a much lesser extent Sola_Fide, approach the old testament. You do it without any regards to context or to the later words of Jesus. Oh you apply the new testament (badly IMO) when there are parts of the OT that you personally don't believe (remember the Sabbath), but if it's something that affects someone else? The NT doesn't matter. Again go back to Deuteronomy 22. It clearly says the "punishment" for a man who rapes a virgin is that he must marry her and cannot divorce her. It says nothing about killing the man. It says nothing about putting the man in prison. And it says nothing about the age of the rape victim. Would you really apply that standard in 2016? A man rapes a 15 year old girl who is still a virgin and you say "Well God said he has to marry her so I guess they have to get married?" Really?
    No I wouldn't say that because that's not actually what scripture teaches.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  10. #68
    I would think many Christians are misled and confused,, if they wish to stand on the side of the accuser.

    or they are not Christians, and know nothing of forgiveness.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  11. #69
    *sigh* all you people commenting on scripture without understanding the basics of how hermaneutics works. Oh well..
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I don't "know" any such thing ,but talking to you feels like talking to a secular who starts shouting about how terrible scriptures are because they have never been taught basic hermaneutics in their life. I don't know where to start.

    No I wouldn't say that because that's not actually what scripture teaches.
    If by hermaneutics you mean "How I can twist scripture from what it actually means to what I need it to mean to support my cockamamie theory" then that is something you need to unlearn! Deuteronomy 22 is not at all about someone who seduces a virgin and then has to marry her. It's about someone who rapes a virgin and then has to marry her. Again you see this borne out in the story of Absalom. His half brother raped his sister. She wanted the half brother to marry her to "take away her shame." He refused to marry her. Absalom killed him not over the rape but over the shaming.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    You're simply wrong about this Jm, and since you're wrong about this, of course you're not going to agree with my position on it. But the Biblical view is that sunday is the Christian Sabbath.
    Find one verse in the Bible that actually backs up your view that Sunday is the Sabbath and I will send you $100. You won't do that because you can't. You can argue from the Bible that the Sabbath is no longer binding on the Christian. It's a weak argument but you can do it. You can argue from the Bible that Sunday is "the Lord's day". Another weak argument since Jesus called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath, but again you can do it. But there is no Biblical evidence to prove that Sunday is the Sabbath. Absolutely none. Of course if you can use hermanutics to "prove" a lie like Deuteronomy 22 is talking about "seduction" when it's talking about "rape" I guess you can "prove" anything.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Find one verse in the Bible that actually backs up your view that Sunday is the Sabbath and I will send you $100. You won't do that because you can't. You can argue from the Bible that the Sabbath is no longer binding on the Christian. It's a weak argument but you can do it. You can argue from the Bible that Sunday is "the Lord's day". Another weak argument since Jesus called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath, but again you can do it. But there is no Biblical evidence to prove that Sunday is the Sabbath. Absolutely none. Of course if you can use hermanutics to "prove" a lie like Deuteronomy 22 is talking about "seduction" when it's talking about "rape" I guess you can "prove" anything.
    You can keep your money, but for the sake of argument it depends on how you define "proof." I believe I can demonstrate from good and necessary consequence that sunday is the Christian sabbath, but if you're looking for a proof text, that I cant give you.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    You can keep your money, but for the sake of argument it depends on how you define "proof." I believe I can demonstrate from good and necessary consequence that sunday is the Christian sabbath, but if you're looking for a proof text, that I cant give you.
    I'm still waiting for you to explain how rape = seduction in your worldview so I'm not expecting much in the way of logic from you. But no. You cannot demonstrate from "good and necessary consequence" that sunday is the Christian Sabbath. The apostles preached on the Jewish Sabbath to Jews on Gentiles on multiple occasions. They knew which day the Sabbath was and it was not Sunday.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #74
    //You can argue from the Bible that Sunday is "the Lord's day". Another weak argument since Jesus called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath, but again you can do it.//

    But since Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, if Sunday is the Lord's Day, I believe it would logically follow that sunday is the Christian sabbath
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    //You can argue from the Bible that Sunday is "the Lord's day". Another weak argument since Jesus called Himself the Lord of the Sabbath, but again you can do it.//

    But since Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, if Sunday is the Lord's Day, I believe it would logically follow that sunday is the Christian sabbath
    Except I never said Sunday is the Lord's day and neither does the Bible. Specifically calling Sunday the Lord's Day came later in church tradition. That said, it is an indisputable fact that the apostles called the Jewish Sabbath "the Sabbath." And I actually have a "proof text."

    Acts 13:42
    And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.


    So we know that this was the Jewish Sabbath due to the reference to the synagogue since that's when the Jews went to synagogue. And note, this would be a perfect time for the apostles to say "Why don't you just come to church with us tomorrow because that's the new Christian Sabbath?" They didn't, because it wasn't. And just so there is no confusion, this is what Paul said to the Jews when he preached to them in that same chapter.

    27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

    Now, what happened the next Sabbath?

    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    *sigh* all you people commenting on scripture without understanding the basics of how hermaneutics hermeneutics works. Oh well..
    Please enlighten us (after you learn how to spell it).
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  20. #77

    The Law Still Applies Because God Does Not Change

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Asking "What does God say about X" and "Should X be criminalized" are two different things. What does God say about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Worst possible sin. What did Jesus say about the Samaritan village that was actively taking steps in that direction? Shake the dust off your feet and move on. You and other theocrats are trying to live under the old testament and the new testament at the same time. Jesus called that putting new wine in old wineskins. All you do is ruin both. Look at the misinterpretation of Deuteronomy 22 by Christian Liberty early in this thread. He has to misinterpret the old testament in order for his cockamamie theory not to seem totally abhorrent. Rape victims are married to their rapists and if they get married again to someone else they have committed adultery and should be stoned. That is the logical conclusion of the steps Christian Liberty takes to get to his idea of criminalizing prostitution. In order to get around that, he changed the clear meaning of Deut 22 from rape of a virgin to seduction of a virgin. And now that I've busted him on it, he won't reply because he knows he's wrong.

    But that is the problem in general with the way you, he, and to a much lesser extent Sola_Fide, approach the old testament. You do it without any regards to context or to the later words of Jesus. Oh you apply the new testament (badly IMO) when there are parts of the OT that you personally don't believe (remember the Sabbath), but if it's something that affects someone else? The NT doesn't matter. Again go back to Deuteronomy 22. It clearly says the "punishment" for a man who rapes a virgin is that he must marry her and cannot divorce her. It says nothing about killing the man. It says nothing about putting the man in prison. And it says nothing about the age of the rape victim. Would you really apply that standard in 2016? A man rapes a 15 year old girl who is still a virgin and you say "Well God said he has to marry her so I guess they have to get married?" Really?
    The only way we can answer the question, "Should X be criminalized," is by, first, answering, "What does God say about X?" The two questions go together, when we are discussing what sexual sins should receive civil sanctions. But, of course, it takes wisdom to understand how to apply those sanctions in our modern world, and that can be challenging at times, I admit. But, nonetheless, it still needs to be considered when we're assessing public policy and its relation to sexual taboos.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that the page marked "New Testament" in our Bibles is not inspired by God. That fact is very important because when we are talking about continuities and discontinuities between the Old and New Covenants, we need to realize that the Old Testament laws still applied when the New Testament was being written. Thus, the authors' approach to how Old Testament laws would apply to them in their own day would not have been riddled with many of the assumptions that we face today in modern Christianity (with ideas such as the "Two-Kingdoms Approach," "Law vs. Gospel" dichotomies, Dispensationalism, and other concepts which inherently but inadvertently pit the Old Testament against the New Testament). Unfortunately, you, yourself, are guilty of those very approaches to the New Testament, which is why you fail at understanding how the Old Testament applies to us today.

    Remember, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16). If sexual acts were condemned with civil penalties in the Old Covenant, then those penalties apply civilly, in some way, in the New Covenant. Otherwise, you would have to say that God made a mistake when He decreed those sexual acts as punishable by civil law under the Old Covenant. But, once again, it takes wisdom to understand how they apply today because the world has changed since the times of the Old Covenant. But the moral indictment against certain sexual behaviors does not change because moral laws are eternal, by nature.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    The only way we can answer the question, "Should X be criminalized," is by, first, answering, "What does God say about X?"
    Why answer it? Why would you seek to criminalize?

    Why would you become the accuser?

    This is not what we are called to do.
    The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #79

    Justice Dictates It

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Why answer it? Why would you seek to criminalize?

    Why would you become the accuser?

    This is not what we are called to do.
    Because if you want to have a just society, then there needs to be an absolute standard for determining what is just and unjust behavior. Once you have established that, then you can deal with how unjust behavior ought to be punished. Why is that? Because God desires holiness from His creatures, not just internally but also externally, which is why God expects us to put away evil from society as it emerges. And, of course, evil is defined by God's Word, not majority opinion nor by current trends of acceptable behavior.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Because if you want to have a just society, then there needs to be an absolute standard for determining what is just and unjust behavior.
    I expect no such thing in this world.

    and history shows that all societies in all the world know the same laws because we are born knowing it.
    And humans have filled the earth.. and with lawful society,,, and corruption.

    No One Gets Any Power in this World except Satan gives it.
    He rules all the kingdoms of this world.. Called "the Prince of this World" by Jesus..

    The End of that is coming. But for now. the theocracy on this world is evil only.

    Why would one want to be on the same side as the accuser of the brethren?
    Last edited by pcosmar; 06-26-2016 at 09:08 AM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Cool. Rule your household as you see fit. That's what all people should do. But the Sabbath is not Sunday. It just isn't. Maybe TER will chime in on this, but the Christian historical record is clear. Christians did not believe the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. At some point, TER would say since the apostles but I would say much later, the "Sabbath" and "the Lord's Day" were both kept. Then for the "official" church the Sabbath was by in large phased out.

    So here again we have a problem with applying what you feel is morally right to the larger civil society. So the government enforce the sanctity of Sabbath especially when most Christians are confused as to which day it is?
    The Old Sabbath was kept briefly after Christ's ascension because the temple was still standing, but its intended purpose had ceased and the apostles kept it as an opportunity to preach the Gospel. When God ordained the destruction of the temple by the Roman authorities, he put an end to the Old Sabbath permanently and there is only The Lord's Day. The only people who deny this are a rag-tag group of unbelieving Jews, many of whom have been deteriorating into secular humanism, and a lone cult that formed out of the ashes of the Millerites and their false prophet.

    No one is confused on the day that Christians are to worship, and anyone who would like to make it seem as though anyone other than Seventh Day Adventists and Christ-hating Jews are confused on this point would do well to read the following tract again.

    Seventh Day Adventism – Of God or of Satan? and The Perpetual Binding Obligation of the Fourth Commandment Defended

    Seventh Day Adventists hold that it was the Emperor Constantine’s Edict in the year A.D. 321 which changed the seventh day of the week to the first day to be observed as the Lord’s Day or the Christian Sabbath. This is quite untrue. Constantine, on becoming a Christian, merely ratified what was the universally established practice from the days of the apostles. Ignatius, in his “Epistle” writeen in A.D. 107, Justin Martyr in his “Apology” A.D. 140, Tertuillian (A.D. 160-230) in his “Answer”, Clement of Alexandria in Book VII, ch. 12, A.D. 168, all clearly state that the first day of the week was observed since the days of the apostles as the Christian Sabbath—the day commemorating the Resurrection of Christ from the dead.

    “It hath been the constant practice of all Christ’s Churches in the whole world ever since the days of the apostles to this day, to assemble for public worship on the Lord’s Day, as a day set apart thereto by the apostles. Yea, so universal was the judgment and practice that there is no Church, no one writer, or one heretic that I remember to have read of, that can be proved even to have dissented or denied it till of late time.” (Baxter on “The Divine Appointment of the Lord’s Day).

    Scriptural Evidences of the Change of Day

    “A certain emphasis seems to be placed precisely upon the fact that it was on the first day of the week that He rose. This is true of all the accounts of His rising; Luke, for example, after telling us that Jesus rose ‘on the first day of the week,’ on coming to add the account of His appearing to His two disciples journeying to Emmaus, throws what almost seems to be a superfluous stress on that also having happened “on that very day.” It is in John’s account, however, that this emphasis is most noticeable. “Now, on the first day of the week,” he tells us “cometh Mary Magdalene early,” to find the tomb empty. And then a little later: “When wherefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week,” Jesus showed Himself to His assembled followers…After this pointedly indicating that it was on the evening of precisely the first day of the week that Jesus showed Himself to His assembled disciples, John proceeds equally sharply to define the time of His next showing of Himself to them as ‘after eight days’; that is to say, it was on the first day of the week that His disciples were again within, and Jesus manifested Himself to them. The appearance is strong that our Lord, having crowded the day of His rising with manifestations, disappeared for a whole week to appear again on the first day of the week. George Z. Gray seems justified, therefore, in suggesting that the full effect of our Lord’s sanction of the first day of the week as the appointed day of His meeting with His disciples can be fitly appreciated only by considering with His manifestations also His disappearances…Is it possible to exaggerate the effect of this blank space of time, in fixing and defining the impressions received through His visits…There is an appearance at least that the first day of the week was becoming under this direct sanction of the risen Lord the appointed day of Christian assemblies. That the Christians were early driven to separate themselves from the Jews (observer Acts 19:9) and had soon established regular times of ‘assembling themselves together’ we know from an exhortation to the Hebrews. 1 Corinthians 16:2: ‘Upon the first day of the week let everyone of you lay by Him in store, as God hath prospered him,” ect., suggests that their ordinary day of assembly was on the first day of the week. It is clear from a passage in Acts 20:7, that the custom of “gathering together to break bread was “upon the first day of the week.”…We learn, from a passing reference in Revelation 1:10 that the designation ‘the Lord’s Day’ had already established itself in Christian usage…With such suggestions behind us, we cannot wonder that the Church emerges from the Apostolic age with the first day of the week firmly established as its day of religious observance. Nor can we doubt that apostolic sanction of this establishment of it is involved in this fact”—(“The Foundations of the Sabbath in the Word of God.” By Rev. Prof. B.B. Warfield, D.D., L.L.D.).

    Is it not also most significant that not only was the first day of the week the day of which the risen Lord made His appearances to His disciples, but that it was on the first day of the week at Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was poured forth and three thousand added to the Church? His appearances on the first day of the week after His resurrection, and His outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the first day of the week after His ascension, point to the first day of the week as the appointed day of worship. And how often since then in times of revival has the Lord owned and acknowledged the first day of the week by pouring forth the Holy Spirit! And along with these indisputable facts we have the unanimous testimony of the early fathers, as has been already observed, confirming that the first day of the week was in apostolic times kept as the weekly Sabbath. Ignatius, who lived in the days of the apostles and who was martyred in A.D. 107, says: “Be not deceived…for if we still live according to Jewish law we acknowledge that we have not received grace. Those who have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observe the Sabbath, but living up in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death.”

    That the change was made in the time of Emperor Constantine is one of the hallucinations of Mrs. Ellen G. White the founder of this false “ism”. It has been observed that Seventh Day Adventism, Christian Science and Theosophy have one thing in common at least—they all had hysterical, neurotic women as their founders. Both Dr. William Russell and Dr. Fairfield, physicians at the Seventh Day Adventist Sanitarium at Battle Creek, attributed Mrs. White’s “visions” as “the result of a diseased organization or condition of brain or nervous system” and were “simply hysterical trances.” (“Seventh Day Adventism Tested by Scripture,” page 15, by A.J. Pollock.)

    “Damnable Heresies”

    1. In her book, “Patriarchs and Prophets,” Mrs. White writes: “The blood of Christ…was not to cancel sin.” Her co-worker, Uriah Smith, writes: “Christ did not make the atonement when He shed His blood upon the Cross. Let this be forever fixed in the mind.” (Looking Unto Jesus, p. 237) What folly, what madness to build for eternity on the diabolically anti-scriptural views of a neurotic woman! What saith the Scriptures? “The blood maketh atonement for the soul” (Leviticus 17:11): “In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace: (Ephesians 1:7); “Made peace through the blood of His cross” (Colossians 1:20); “Redemed by the precious blood of Christ” (1 Peter 1:19).
    2. Mrs. White writes: “Satan bore…the weight and punishment of the sins of the redeemed.” Again what saith the Scriptures? “Who (Christ) His own self bore our sins in His own body on the tree” (1 Peter 2:26). “But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him: and with His stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5).
    3. Not only does Mrs. White rob Christ of the glory of having redeemed His people by His precious blood, but she blasphemously asserts that He inherited a sinful nature. “In His humanity, Christ partook of our sinful, fallen nature…On His human side, Christ inherited just what every child of Adam inherits—a sinful nature.” (“Bible readings for the Home Circle,” p. 115). What an awful perversion of the Word of God which testifies that “He was holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners” (Hebrews 7:26) and “without sin” (Hebrews 4:15).
    4. Soul sleep is another delusion taught by this sect. And yet the apostle Paul plainly affirms that to depart and to be with Christ is far better (Phil. 1:23). “Absent from the body, present with the Lord.”
    5. When the World of God respecting the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work is so blasphemously distorted and denied, is it any wonder that Seventh Day Adventists also deny the doctrine of everlasting punishment? Mrs. White says that it is “opposed to the teaching of the Scriptures, to the dictates of reason, and to our feelings of humanity. “The theory of eternal punishment.” She continues “is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abominations of Rome…They received it from Rome, as they received the false Sabbath.” Will Mrs. White or any of her disciples, asks Wm. C. Irvine in his book “Heresies Exposed,” dare to set up “the feelings of humanity” against the plain word of the Living God.” “These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” “It is absolutely cruel,” writes Dr. A.A. Hodge, the renowned theologian, “to follow the example of the devil with Eve in persuading people that after all God may be more benevolent than the language of His Word implies” (Genesis 3:3-4)

    “Seducing Spirits”

    The views of Seventh Day Adventists are largely based on the “visions” which Mrs. White claimed she had from God. The following extract from “Wake up S.D.A.s,” by F.C. Payne, reveals clearly that her “visions” were from Satan as an angel of light (See 2 Corinthians 11:13-14). “Surely God has given us ample warnings in both the Old and New Testament against false prophets that would arise. Note the details of his warning in 1 Timothy 4:1-3; “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from meats.” It would be difficult to find a false prophet who fulfilled this prophecy more emphatically that Mrs. Ellen G. White. First she rose up in the latter times. For forty years she condemned all who preached salvation by faith alone. She outright discouraged marriage, and condemned bearing children (yet she had four). Listen to this inspired message: “I was shown that Brother and Sister…The missionaries had better set the people an example in these things that correspond with “our faith.” The time is and has been for years that the bringing of children into the world is more an occasion of grief than joy…Satan controls these children, and the Lord has but little to do with them.”

    “Abstaining From Meats”

    And to complete the fulfillment of this prophecy from 1 Timothy, “Commanding to abstain from meats,” Mrs. White was not content with interfering with God’s items of food, including “tea, coffee, flesh-meats, butter, spices, rich cakes, mince pies, cheese”…”Eggs should not be placed upon your table. They are an injury to your children.” She warned parents that God would not answer the prayers if they fed their children butter, eggs, or meat.”

    The Ban On Eggs Lifted

    In 1909, after 39 years, the ban on eggs was lifted, for she now gets a revelation that eggs are not only good food, but, quote, “Eggs contain properties that are remedial agencies in counteracting certain poisons” (“The Testimony of Jesus,” p. 64). Needless to say, medical science had this knowledge many years before that eggs were the preventive and cure for the great scourge of rickets in children. Thus their prophetess was responsible for the suffering or death of children contracting rickets between 1870 and 1909 whose parents obeyed the demon-directed instructions of their prophetess. I have already given Mrs. White’s own testimony that anything she wrote was given her by the Spirit of God. One thing is certain it was not from the Spirit of the God of heaven.
    Enough has been written to show that Seventh Day Adventism is not of God but of the devil. Its doctrines are “doctrines of devils” and all who will not, renounce and forsake it will assuredly find themselves among those who will hear the dread sentence, “Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41) If you have been ensnared in this delusion act now on the exhortation given you by God in His word, “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.” (2 Corinthians 6:16-17).

    The Sabbath

    The Fourth Commandment is an integral and permanent part of the Moral Law and is therefore universally binding upon all men as a rule of life and conduct as surely as the other commandments in the Decalogue. The Sabbath is not a temporary Jewish ordinance, as some falsely aver. Its institution pre-dates The Fall, and is “made for man” as the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath declares. The ceremonial law pertaining to the sacrifices and carnal ordinances of the Old Testament Church was typical and therefore temporary. It was not engraven in tables of stone. It was the law of the shadows of the things to come, and having been fulfilled in Christ it passed away.

    But not so the Moral Law. The Ten Commandments engraven in tables of stone by the finger of God, as proof and evidence of their permanency, remain the unchanged and unchangeable divine rule of life and manners. The change of the day to the first day of the week did not in the least degree interfere with the spirit, the substance and complete authority of the Fourth Commandment—to keep one whole day in seven holy to the Lord. “The precepts of the Decalogue,” writes Dr. Hodge, “bind the Church in all ages; while the specific details contained in the book of Moses, designed to point out the way in which the duty they enjoyed was then to be performed, are no longer in force. The Fifth Commandment still binds children to obey their parents; but the Jewish law giving fathers the power of life and death over their children, is no longer in force. The Seventh Commandment forbids adultery, but the ordeal enjoined for the trail of a woman suspected of that crime is a thing of the past. The same principle applies to the interpretation of the Fourth Commandment. The command itself is still in force; the Mosaic laws respecting the mode of its observance have passed away with the economy to which they belonged. It is unjust therefore to represent the advocates of the continued obligation of the Fourth Commandment, as Judaizers. They are no more Judaizers than those who hold that the other precepts of the Decalogue are still in force.” (“Systematic Theology,” Part 3, p. 337).

    The Sabbath Days of Colossians 2:16

    Appeal is made to Colossians 2:16; “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days,” by those who deny the perpetual obligation of the Fourth Commandment. “Everyone knows,” writes Dr. Hodge, “that the apostolic churches were greatly troubled by Judaizers, who insisted that the Mosaic law continued in force, and that Christians were bound to conform to its prescriptions with regard to the distinction between clean and unclean meats, and its numerous feast days, on which all labor was to be intermitted. These were false teachers and this was the false doctrine against which so much of Paul’s epistles was directed. It has no ference to the weekly Sabbath, which had been observed from the Creation and which the apostles themselves introduced and perpetuated in the Christian Church.” (“Systematic Theology,” Part 3, p. 332).

    The Believers’ Relationship to the Law

    The view that the Fourth Commandment is no longer binding in New Testament times flows from an erroneous interpretation of the believers’ relationship to the law, as set forth in the texts as, “Ye are not under the law, but under grace.” Believers are not under the law as a covenant of works to be thereby justified or condemned, but under the covenant of grace, and therefore “under the law of Christ” (1 Corinthians 9:21) as the Head and Mediator thereof, and they seek the grace of the covenant to give obedience to what Christ their Lord and Master requires of them, when He says, “If ye love Me, keep my commandments.” John Howe, the Puritan divine, expresses the Scriptural view held by the Church of God in all generations of the law. He saves us from the wrath of God, not from his government. (Galatians 3:13-14; Romans 8:3-4) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, in order that the promised Spirit might be given (Galatians 3:13-14) who should write the law in our hearts, fulfill the righteousness of it in us: regenerating us; begetting us after God’s image, and making us partakers of a God-like nature. So we through the law become dead to the malediction and curse of it, that we may live to God more devoted lives than ever.” “For this is the love of God that we keep his commandments.” (1 John 5:3).

    A Challenging Question

    Did you ever meet with a lively believer,” asks the saintly Robert Murray McCheyne, “in any country under heaven—one who loved Christ and lived a holy life—who did not delight in keeping holy to God the entire Lord’s Day””

    An Appeal

    “My fellow traveler to eternity, it is commanded, when God says, “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.” He claims all the day as much as any part in it. To profane the morning or evening is as much rebellion against God as to profane the whole, and unless you religiously improve the day, you have no share in the blessings promised to those who improve not the morning nor the afternoon but who remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. As to making too much of this sacred day, do they who are in heaven think that this can be done? Do they who are lost in hell? Or will you when death and eternity are near? You do not complain that six days are too long for serving the world: you are contented all the week without the house of God, but not one day without the world. If you are not awefully blind to your own state, you must perceive this; and while you are a lover of the world, the love of God is not in you. If on e Sabbath is a burden to you what would an eternal Sabbath be? If you cannot be content for a few hours without the world, what happiness would you find even in heaven, where all is spiritual and devout? That you are indisposed for religious exercises is both your sin and your misery, and confirms the importance of a change in you, great as a second birth. They that are after the flesh, the Lord declares, do mind the things of the flesh: and this is your case while it is so you are a perishing sinner, and never can be happy, unless you become a new creature in Jesus Christ.
    Improve your Sabbaths. Forsake not the regular assembling with the children of God; but keep in sight the day that fast approaches, the day when the guilt of broken Sabbaths must be answered for. But if your Sabbaths are improved, a day when the worship of earth shall be exchanged for the worship of heaven, the praises of time for those of eternity, a day of blessedness for you shall dawn that never more shall end.” (Rev. J.C. Pike).
    “If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day: and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord honorable; and shalt honor Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words; then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.” (Isaiah 58:13-14).

    (William “Ergatees” Maclean)

  26. #82
    Oh please, Unicorn. That tract is over-the-top. Tell me this: exactly how many Adventist children died horrible deaths from rickets between 1870 and 1909?

    Could it be.... zero?

    When it tosses out a baseless accusation like that to prove how demon-directed and Satanic the murderous prophetess was, slaughtering vast mountains of children with egglessness and stomping over the carcasses, it discredits the entire rest of the tract, showing the author is just not a serious person and not concerned with intellectual honesty.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    baptists of any stripe are a different breed entirely and while some are faithful Christians, they arent Protestants in any historical sense.
    I can't speak for other Baptists, but in my case you hit the nail on the head. "Protestant" is not a good label for what I am.

    I'm a Christian. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. Protestantism has only been around for 500. Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have each been around about 1,400 or so.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    But since Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, if Sunday is the Lord's Day, I believe it would logically follow that sunday is the Christian sabbath[/COLOR]
    What kind of ridiculous contorted logic is that?

    You might as well say that it logically follows that Sunday is the Christian Monday, or Tuesday, or any other day.

    Yes, Sunday is the Lord's Day. Yes, it has been revered as a day of remembering the resurrection since the time of the apostles. Yes, it's true that no Christians since Pentecost have ever been obligated to observe the Sabbath according to the covenant God made with Israel, whether on the 7th day of the week or the 1st. Those who had been raised as Torah observant Israelites continued to observe it as they always had. But when Gentiles came to faith in Jesus, they were no more obligated to observe the Sabbath than they were to get circumcised. However, neither the apostles nor any other Christians whose writings we have from at least the first two centuries of Christianity made an equation like the one you did, that Sunday is the new Sabbath. In fact, they distinguished the two.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I can't speak for other Baptists, but in my case you hit the nail on the head. "Protestant" is not a good label for what I am.

    I'm a Christian. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years. Protestantism has only been around for 500. Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy have each been around about 1,400 or so.
    It of course depends on what you mean by Protestantism. I obviously believe the apostles taught the same doctrine we do, but in a historical sense you' enot wrong here.
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    What kind of ridiculous contorted logic is that?

    You might as well say that it logically follows that Sunday is the Christian Monday, or Tuesday, or any other day.

    Yes, Sunday is the Lord's Day. Yes, it has been revered as a day of remembering the resurrection since the time of the apostles. Yes, it's true that no Christians since Pentecost have ever been obligated to observe the Sabbath according to the covenant God made with Israel, whether on the 7th day of the week or the 1st. Those who had been raised as Torah observant Israelites continued to observe it as they always had. But when Gentiles came to faith in Jesus, they were no more obligated to observe the Sabbath than they were to get circumcised. However, neither the apostles nor any other Christians whose writings we have from at least the first two centuries of Christianity made an equation like the one you did, that Sunday is the new Sabbath. In fact, they distinguished the two.
    The reason given for following the sabbath is that God created the earth in six days and rested one, so to say we are not bound by it makes little sense. I don't believe the sabbath was a ceremonial law but rather a moral one
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    The reason given for following the sabbath is that God created the earth in six days and rested one, so to say we are not bound by it makes little sense. I don't believe the sabbath was a ceremonial law but rather a moral one
    The day he rested was the 7th (which is incidentally, also the day Jesus rested immediately before his resurrection). That is a historic fact that will never change. The sabbath law was never just to rest one day out of 7, but to rest on the same day God did, the 7th. If that's not the day you're resting, then you're not observing the sabbath law.

    The apostle did treat the sabbath command as not obligatory. But they never suggested that the sabbath day could ever be any other day than the 7th. Nor did they relate it in any way to the Lord's Day.
    Last edited by erowe1; 06-27-2016 at 11:20 AM.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    The day he rested was the 7th (which is incidentally, also the day Jesus rested immediately before his resurrection). That is a historic fact that will never change. The sabbath law was never just to rest one day out of 7, but to rest on the same day God did, the 7th. If that's not the day you're resting, then you're not observing the sabbath law.

    The apostle did treat the sabbath command as not obligatory. But they never suggested that the sabbath day could ever be any other day than the 7th. Nor did they relate it in any way to the Lord's Day.
    //8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to theLord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.//

    I believe the good and necessary consequence for observance on the first day of the week is sufficient, but even if not, how in the world does this just go away? I could understand saying its the seventh day, or that you just have to pick a day, but I can't fathom how you could look at the reason God gave that law and still say we can just totally ignore it.

    However, since the sabbath was a day of holy convocation (worship) and the apostles worshipped on the Lord's Day (and also Isaiah 58 refers to the sabbath as "my" [the Lord's] holy day) there's a clear good and necessary consequence that the sabbath should be observed the first day of the week. Of course if baptists were good with good and necessary consequence, they would also have their whole households baptized.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  32. #88
    Also I believe the switch to the first day was in honor of the resurrection (while still keeping the one in seven principle established at creation) so it makes sense that Christ would have rested in the tomb the seventh day.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    //[FONT="]8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to theLord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.//

    I believe the good and necessary consequence for observance on the first day of the week is sufficient, but even if not, how in the world does this just go away? I could understand saying its the seventh day, or that you just have to pick a day, but I can't fathom how you could look at the reason God gave that law and still say we can just totally ignore it.
    [/FONT]

    However, since the sabbath was a day of holy convocation (worship) and the apostles worshipped on the Lord's Day (and also Isaiah 58 refers to the sabbath as "my" [the Lord's] holy day) there's a clear good and necessary consequence that the sabbath should be observed the first day of the week. Of course if baptists were good with good and necessary consequence, they would also have their whole households baptized.
    According to the very passage you quoted, if you don't observe the Sabbath on the 7th day, then what you're doing is not observing the Sabbath, but something else.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Also I believe the switch to the first day was in honor of the resurrection (while still keeping the one in seven principle established at creation) so it makes sense that Christ would have rested in the tomb the seventh day.
    I agree that early Christian setting apart of the 1st day was primarily in remembrance of the resurrection. But we have absolutely zero evidence that any early Christians (at least throughout the first two centuries) thought of this as a sabbath, and abundant evidence that they distinguished it from the sabbath.

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