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Thread: Trump: "Profiling" Of Muslims "Is Something We're Going To Have To Start Thinking About"

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    No, I'm talking about the principle. Profiling makes sense whether it's a state or a private entity doing it. Businesses profile all the time, as they should.


    Harassment of citizens is a red herring.

    If your task was dealing with street gangs in your neighborhood, would you pay equal attention to blacks, whites, Jews, Asians, and Indians? If so, you will do a terrible job. There's no way around that.
    Muslims account for only about 1 percent of the U.S. population but account for about half of terrorist attacks since 9/11. They are ripe to commit heinous acts, especially if that includes a deep state handler as well.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    No, I'm talking about the principle. Profiling makes sense whether it's a state or a private entity doing it. Businesses profile all the time, as they should.


    Harassment of citizens is a red herring.

    If your task was dealing with street gangs in your neighborhood, would you pay equal attention to blacks, whites, Jews, Asians, and Indians? If so, you will do a terrible job. There's no way around that.
    Whether it makes sense or not (to you) government is woefully inefficient in almost everything it does. You will be very disappointed if you expect efficient use of resources. I would expect more waste, but I'm a realist.

    And far from a red herring, law enforcement (or whatever agency would carry out this profiling) would use this as an excuse to further harass certain segments of the population whether that person is guilty of something or not. But what do you care? It's not your demographic.

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    No, I'm talking about the principle. Profiling makes sense whether it's a state or a private entity doing it. Businesses profile all the time, as they should.


    Harassment of citizens is a red herring.

    If your task was dealing with street gangs in your neighborhood, would you pay equal attention to blacks, whites, Jews, Asians, and Indians? If so, you will do a terrible job. There's no way around that.
    Some believe that if you wish to thwart right-wing extremist terrorist that the government should profile militias, Ron Paul supporters, those that reference the Constitution or have a Gadsden flag displayed. Do we really want to go down this road?

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Thats not how the government works, they will demagogue these terror attacks until mccains bill passes. Its not even about Muslims, its about people like you and me. They are more afraid of us then they are afraid of ISIS. Make sure to pat yourself on the back when we are all on a list.
    That's also a red herring that distracts from the principle.

    Imagine we lived in whatever your ideal society is: minarchist, ancap, constitutionalist, whatever. In said society, law enforcement (DROs, private police, militia etc) have to deal with a crime wave of a real and serious crime; something against person or property. We'll call this crime X. The affected area is mostly comprised of group A and group B. Group A is the majority, but group B is massively over-represented among the perpetrators of X. Should this ideal law enforcement agency take this into account or not? If yes, that's profiling. If not, said agency will be much less efficient than it could be. I don't see any reason for that.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  6. #95

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    Whether it makes sense or not (to you) government is woefully inefficient in almost everything it does. You will be very disappointed if you expect efficient use of resources. I would expect more waste, but I'm a realist.
    You're not hearing me. Let's say it was a ruthlessly efficient DRO in ancapistan. Would profiling make sense then? If government is always going to be wasteful (and I agree, it is), why force them to use even less efficient methods?

    And far from a red herring, law enforcement (or whatever agency would carry out this profiling) would use this as an excuse to further harass certain segments of the population whether that person is guilty of something or not. But what do you care? It's not your demographic.
    No, it is my demographic. I'm a young white man. If I walked into a convenience store followed by an old Asian woman and the security guard paid more attention to me than her, I would just think he's doing his job well. The young commit more crimes than the old, whites commit more crime than Asians and men commit more crime than women. This is just a sensible policy to take what we know about the world and applying it.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Some believe that if you wish to thwart right-wing extremist terrorist that the government should profile militias, Ron Paul supporters, those that reference the Constitution or have a Gadsden flag displayed. Do we really want to go down this road?
    Considering whites are underrepresented when it comes to terrorist attacks (let alone right-wing whites specifically), I don't think that's a particularly pertinent question. Right-wing whites to be less violent than the general population.

    If there was, in fact, an attack by a rightist militia group, it wouldn't make much sense to profile Asian teenagers, would it?
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Considering whites are underrepresented when it comes to terrorist attacks (let alone right-wing whites specifically), I don't think that's a particularly pertinent question. Right-wing whites to be less violent than the general population.

    If there was, in fact, an attack by a rightist militia group, it wouldn't make much sense to profile Asian teenagers, would it?
    Lol, if we are to set conspiracies aside, Timothy McVeigh makes what Marteen, the Tsarnaev brothers and pretty much every Islamic attack besides 9/11 look like pikers in terms of fatalities. Even if you combine them all.

    So profiling everyone in the MIAC report isn't a hard stretch. In fact not a stretch at all. So be careful what you wish for.

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    You're not hearing me. Let's say it was a ruthlessly efficient DRO in ancapistan. Would profiling make sense then? If government is always going to be wasteful (and I agree, it is), why force them to use even less efficient methods?


    No, it is my demographic. I'm a young white man. If I walked into a convenience store followed by an old Asian woman and the security guard paid more attention to me than her, I would just think he's doing his job well. The young commit more crimes than the old, whites commit more crime than Asians and men commit more crime than women. This is just a sensible policy to take what we know about the world and applying it.
    We're not talking about the behavior of young white men vs. older Asian women in convenience stores. We're talking about profiling people as possible terror suspects. read @phill4paul 's post again. Some of us on this site belong to a group that the government would love to put on a list. They're going to do this anyway, I'm not going to give them my blessing for it.

    In your first paragraph, I don't know what you mean by "ruthlessly efficient DRO in ancapistan." Define your terms please.

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Antischism View Post
    I thought this had to be a joke, but no. It's real. And he sounds so much like some of the folks who are populating RPF lately:



    A campaign sign in Polk County is stirring up a lot of controversy.

    The sign, located off Highway 411 near Benton, says "Make America White Again" and was put there by Rick Tyler, an independent candidate in the race for Tennessee's 3rd congressional district seat currently held by Chuck Fleischmann.


    Tyler told Channel 3 he has no hatred in his heart for "people of color." He says the sign's message is that America should go back to a "1960s, Ozzie and Harriet, Leave it to Beaver time when there were no break-ins; no violent crime; no mass immigration." << (I swear, I've seen someone here say this just recently in almost the exact same words.)


    Several Channel 3 viewers have called or sent messages to our newsroom, saying the signs do not reflect the feelings of the entire county and that they want them down.


    Tyler said, "I respect their right to have an opinion. I believe the majority of the people in the county like it."


    "I saw people taking pictures beside it right after I posted it," added Tyler.


    Channel 3 asked Tyler if he feared for his safety or backlash from the campaign sign. He said, "I don't fear it. I welcome it, and I will respond with the application of truth." Tyler said on Wednesday he had been receiving death threats.


    Tyler posted a second sign on Highway 64 with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous "I Have a Dream" quote written over a White House surrounded by Confederate Flags.


    The sign was taken down less than 12 hours after being put up, but not by Tyler.


    Even so, that was enough time to get the public's attention and cause some controversy.


    The owner of the billboard will not confirm if or why his company removed the signage. Tyler wants it to be put back up, he said he paid for the signs to be there until after the November election.


    "If i could I'd have hundreds of these billboards up across the 3rd District," he said.


    Party officials and elected officials are speaking out against the signs.


    Tennessee Republican Party Chairman Ryan Haynes said in a statement, "There's no room for this type of hateful display in our political discourse. Racism should be rejected in all its heinous forms in the Third Congressional District and around the country."


    Today, Congressman Chuck Fleischmann also released a statement regarding the billboards.


    “I totally and unequivocally condemn the billboard and Mr. Tyler’s message and will vigorously fight any form of racism in the 3rd district of Tennessee or anywhere else in the nation,” said Fleischmann.


    Fleischmann is facing Allan Levene and Geoffery Suhmer Smith for the GOP nomination.


    Michael Friedman, George Ryan Love and Melody Shekari are vying for the Democratic nomination.


    Tyler is running as an independent candidate along with Topher Kersting and Cassandra Mitchell.


    Voters will head to the polls for Tennessee's primary elections on August 4.


    The general election will be held November 8.
    http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/32277324...rsy-in-polk-co
    Last edited by cajuncocoa; 06-22-2016 at 06:01 PM.

  13. #101
    "Profiling Christians is just something we have to start thinking about."
    Would that get the same reaction around here? Then they came for the Jews.... sound familiar?

    This way of thinking has a way of escalating on down the line and while I am no fan of Islam, I cannot support this type of reaction.

    LP, people. Vote LP in the general.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Indian View Post
    "Profiling Christians is just something we have to start thinking about."
    Would that get the same reaction around here? Then they came for the Jews.... sound familiar?

    This way of thinking has a way of escalating on down the line and while I am no fan of Islam, I cannot support this type of reaction.

    LP, people. Vote LP in the general.
    +rep

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Lol, if we are to set conspiracies aside, Timothy McVeigh makes what Marteen, the Tsarnaev brothers and pretty much every Islamic attack besides 9/11 look like pikers in terms of fatalities. Even if you combine them all.

    So profiling everyone in the MIAC report isn't a hard stretch. In fact not a stretch at all. So be careful what you wish for.
    +rep to you too.

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Lol, if we are to set conspiracies aside, Timothy McVeigh makes what Marteen, the Tsarnaev brothers and pretty much every Islamic attack besides 9/11 look like pikers in terms of fatalities. Even if you combine them all.
    Yeah, it was a very destructive attack. Whites are still underrepresented among terrorists, and rightist whites even more so by default.

    So profiling everyone in the MIAC report isn't a hard stretch. In fact not a stretch at all. So be careful what you wish for.
    Again, if there is an attack or a credible threat of an attack by a right-wing militia group, it would make sense to profile whites. Going in to an investigation like that and pretending it could just as likely be a bunch of Japanese men would be ridiculous, and I think you know that.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    We're not talking about the behavior of young white men vs. older Asian women in convenience stores. We're talking about profiling people as possible terror suspects. read @phill4paul's post again. Some of us on this site belong to a group that the government would love to put on a list. They're going to do this anyway, I'm not going to give them my blessing for it.
    Good lord, don't you understand what illustrating a principle is? It's not about the specifics of the situation. You could switch out the demographics and the crime to anything else and the principle would be the same.

    In your first paragraph, I don't know what you mean by "ruthlessly efficient DRO in ancapistan." Define your terms please.
    I don't know if you're an ancap, so I'll put this another way. Demographics do not commit crimes at the same rate. This is a fact. Taking that into account, should your ideal law enforcement agency use that fact to help their investigations, or should they completely ignore it and thereby make themselves less effective?
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  19. #106
    "The Yakuza have taken credit for this killing... But it could just as easily be a Guatemalan woman as a Japanese man! Lets not profile, now."
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Yeah, it was a very destructive attack. Whites are still underrepresented among terrorists, and rightist whites even more so by default.


    Again, if there is an attack or a credible threat of an attack by a right-wing militia group, it would make sense to profile whites. Going in to an investigation like that and pretending it could just as likely be a bunch of Japanese men would be ridiculous, and I think you know that.
    Oh, I understand what you are saying, don't get me wrong. If there is an Amber alert for a white Ford Taurus it doesn't make much sense pulling over a black Chevy pick-up. The difference is that the driver of the car in an Amber Alert is a known threat. While the number of American Muslims that are terrorists are in the thousands percentile of the group as a whole.

    And I'm going to have to challenge you with regards to your assertion that whites are underrepresented. Poplawski, Loughner, Kaczynski, McVeigh, Dylan Roof, $#@! I could spend the rest of the night filling in the blanks.

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    I thought this had to be a joke, but no. It's real. And he sounds so much like some of the folks who are populating RPF lately:

    http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/32277324...rsy-in-polk-co
    Precisely my point. ;]

    Who needs The Onion when you have real life?

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Good lord, don't you understand what illustrating a principle is? It's not about the specifics of the situation. You could switch out the demographics and the crime to anything else and the principle would be the same.


    I don't know if you're an ancap, so I'll put this another way. Demographics do not commit crimes at the same rate. This is a fact. Taking that into account, should your ideal law enforcement agency use that fact to help their investigations, or should they completely ignore it and thereby make themselves less effective?
    Good Lord, do you understand that you can't just plug in that to illustrate a principle here? It's not anywhere close to being the same thing.

    I don't want law enforcement to predict criminal behavior. That's a slippery slope, and I don't want to go there.

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Oh, I understand what you are saying, don't get me wrong. If there is an Amber alert for a white Ford Taurus it doesn't make much sense pulling over a black Chevy pick-up. The difference is that the driver of the car in an Amber Alert is a known threat. While the number of American Muslims that are terrorists are in the thousands percentile of the group as a whole.
    I'm not saying that Muslims should be randomly targeted, but any investigator needs to take the demographics of what he's investigating into account. It would be ridiculous to not do that.

    You're probably familiar with the case of Lee Rigby. If not, he was a British soldier who was decapitated by a Muslim in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses. The perpetrator was radicalized by a homegrown British Islamist named Anjem Choudary. He also encouraged British Muslims to join ISIS by praising their extremist Muslim version of socialism (yes, really). For the longest time, there was no evidence that he had done anything illegal. I don't think it's at all illegitimate to look into that guy. Not to drag him off to a black site prison in the middle of the night, but to look into just what it is he's doing. That's not some authoritarian violation of anything.

    And I'm going to have to challenge you with regards to your assertion that whites are underrepresented. Poplawski, Loughner, Kaczynski, McVeigh, Dylan Roof, $#@! I could spend the rest of the night filling in the blanks.
    I'm going by the data that the progs wave around when they crow that whites commit more terrorist attacks than Muslims. If I recall correctly, it was Muslims committing around 20% of attacks, and whites committing around 40%.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  24. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    Good Lord, do you understand that you can't just plug in that to illustrate a principle here? It's not anywhere close to being the same thing.
    You actually have to illustrate why the circumstances change the principle, you can't just assert it.

    I don't want law enforcement to predict criminal behavior. That's a slippery slope, and I don't want to go there.
    So you just want law enforcement to show up after a crime has been committed, you don't want any sort of prevention. Well, that's ridiculous. Ounce of prevention vis a vis pound of cure and such...
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    You actually have to illustrate why the circumstances change the principle, you can't just assert it.


    So you just want law enforcement to show up after a crime has been committed, you don't want any sort of prevention. Well, that's ridiculous. Ounce of prevention vis a vis pound of cure and such...
    Illustration in post #99. And to your second point, yes. Exactly. Everything else is dangerous to liberty.



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  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Ounce of prevention vis a vis pound of cure and such...
    We agree on the symptoms, but not the illness, not whats causing the symptoms. We're all Ron Paul republicans, the only way to prevent it is to stop causing it.

  28. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post

    So you just want law enforcement to show up after a crime has been committed, you don't want any sort of prevention. Well, that's ridiculous. Ounce of prevention vis a vis pound of cure and such...
    Minority Report, Dude- your talkin' guilty until proved innocent.

    What you want is pretty much what happened to the Jews. So much for freedom.
    There is no spoon.

  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    I'm not saying that Muslims should be randomly targeted, but any investigator needs to take the demographics of what he's investigating into account. It would be ridiculous to not do that.

    You're probably familiar with the case of Lee Rigby. If not, he was a British soldier who was decapitated by a Muslim in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses. The perpetrator was radicalized by a homegrown British Islamist named Anjem Choudary. He also encouraged British Muslims to join ISIS by praising their extremist Muslim version of socialism (yes, really). For the longest time, there was no evidence that he had done anything illegal. I don't think it's at all illegitimate to look into that guy. Not to drag him off to a black site prison in the middle of the night, but to look into just what it is he's doing. That's not some authoritarian violation of anything.


    I'm going by the data that the progs wave around when they crow that whites commit more terrorist attacks than Muslims. If I recall correctly, it was Muslims committing around 20% of attacks, and whites committing around 40%.
    For me it comes down to that thin line separating pogroms from investigations. We already profile to some extent. Mosques have been watched in this country. They are still watched. Even with no credible threat. Neo-Nazi, militias and biker groups are infiltrated all the time. Even with no credible threat. It's called "fishing."

    As I've pointed out the MIAC report laid out who the government should profile for. Have you read it? It's a hoot.

    And I have no idea what the prog press spews. I do remember at least two times in the years I've been on this forum in which there was a shooting in which the name "Ron Paul" came into play and I thought "Oh, $#@!. Here we go."

  30. #116


    Subject matter aside this is one strange video for a "professional" TV station. It's a very unusual square aspect ratio and the sound man must have been off that day since there's no microphones and all the background sounds are overwhelming at times. Looks to me like it was recorded with a cell phone using the built in mic and even recorded with the wrong "sideways" aspect ratio and then edited to the square look.

    Just my take on the technical side of this video...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  31. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post


    Subject matter aside this is one strange video for a "professional" TV station. It's a very unusual square aspect ratio and the sound man must have been off that day since there's no microphones and all the background sounds are overwhelming at times. Looks to me like it was recorded with a cell phone using the built in mic and even recorded with the wrong "sideways" aspect ratio and then edited to the square look.

    Just my take on the technical side of this video...
    It's a small Chattanooga station, they probably have more field reporters than van crews.
    I dont think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president, he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. Hes the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  32. #118
    http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files...tah-v-strieff/
    "the majority's opinion sanctions police stops that corrode all our civil liberties and threaten all our lives." -Sonia Sotomayor
    This is all in the context of the fourth amendment getting rolled away. Trump's stances on the police state and the fourth amendment make him too much of a Chris Christie hugger to me.

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    Illustration in post #99. And to your second point, yes. Exactly. Everything else is dangerous to liberty.
    So what, the problem is the list? So if there was no list, profiling would be okay?
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  34. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    We agree on the symptoms, but not the illness, not whats causing the symptoms. We're all Ron Paul republicans, the only way to prevent it is to stop causing it.
    That's a separate question.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.



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