Jesus vs Paul

[Ronin Truth]

Jesus vs Paul

There are remarkable differences between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus. Paul taught his followers not to observe the Jewish Law:

Galatians 2:15-16

We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Paul's doctrine (faith not works) is central to modern Christianity, but, fundamentally different to Jesus' doctrine (works not faith):

Matthew 19:16-17

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only one who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

As far as Jesus was concerned, Christians were to follow the Jewish Law until heaven and earth disappeared:

Matthew 5:17-19

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Bible clearly states, that Jesus did not intend for his doctrine to be superseded by Paul's:

Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.

Most Christians are left with the amazing contradiction; that they are following Paul's doctrine (faith not works), rather than Jesus' (works not faith). When one factors in:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'

And,

Matthew 25: 41, 46.

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

It seems surprising that more fundamentalist Christians aren't observing the Jewish Law and all its precepts.

http://www.christianitydisproved.com...s-vs-paul.html

[erowe1]

Matthew 5:17-19
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

It says right there, "until everything is accomplished."

Also, notice that not one of those quotes from Jesus says that the Law of Moses is to be amended to apply to anyone outside of the original parties of the covenant, God and the nation of Israel.

[donnay]

It says right there, "until everything is accomplished."

Also, notice that not one of those quotes from Jesus says that the Law of Moses is to be amended to apply to anyone outside of the original parties of the covenant, God and the nation of Israel.

So are we part of the house of Israel or the house of Judea?


2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[erowe1]

So are we part of the house of Israel or the house of Judea?


2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Church is neither of those. Nor is it Gentile. It is something new (1 Corinthians 10:32; Ephesians 2:15).

[Ronin Truth]

So are we part of the house of Israel or the house of Judea?


2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

FWIW, I'll SWAG the House of the Roman Empire.

[donnay]

FWIW, I'll SWAG the House of the Roman Empire.

Christians are the house of Israel. Ten tribes that were scattered over the Caucasus mountains that settled in Europe and Canada and the US.

[The Rebel Poet]

Jesus vs Paul

There are remarkable differences between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus. Paul taught his followers not to observe the Jewish Law:

Well right there in the first sentence there is an error. Jesus did in fact tell his followers not to observe the Jewish law. All of the quotes provided show Jesus telling his followers to follow biblical Law. Biblical Law and Jewish law are not the same thing. Here is but one example of Jesus giving the smackdown to Jewish law:

Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”

Galatians 2:15-16

We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Paul's doctrine (faith not works) is central to modern Christianity, but, fundamentally different to Jesus' doctrine (works not faith):

Matthew 19:16-17

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only one who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

No both of their doctrines are faith AND works. Paul doesn't say not to follow the Law, he says that it won't save you. He goes on to say that we absolutely should follow the Law:

But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

.
And Jesus is simply following the man's own beliefs until they come to a dead end (like the Socratic method). He eventually leads the man to realize he either can't or won't actually follow the Law. And if you keep reading to the end of the story, Jesus says explicitly that no one will be saved by following the Law:

When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

As far as Jesus was concerned, Christians were to follow the Jewish Law until heaven and earth disappeared:

Matthew 5:17-19

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Wrong. Jesus taught that biblical Law should be followed, not Jewish law.

The Bible clearly states, that Jesus did not intend for his doctrine to be superseded by Paul's:

Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.

No argument here.

Most Christians are left with the amazing contradiction; that they are following Paul's doctrine (faith not works), rather than Jesus' (works not faith).

As proven above, Paul's doctrine is not devoid of obedience, and Jesus' doctrine isn't faithless.

When one factors in:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'

And,

Matthew 25: 41, 46.

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

It seems surprising that more fundamentalist Christians aren't observing the Jewish Law and all its precepts.

http://www.christianitydisproved.com...s-vs-paul.html

What's weird about that? Both Jesus and Paul clearly taught that Jewish law should have no part in Christianity. Or if this was meant as a reference to biblical Law, then it's still unsurprising; the author apparently doesn't realize how little respect the Church has for Christianity. This would explain why he can't tell the difference between biblical Law and Judaism, or the difference between faith and disobedience.

[The Rebel Poet]

The Church is neither of those. Nor is it Gentile. It is something new (1 Corinthians 10:32; Ephesians 2:15).

Too bad you guys can't partake in the New Covenant. Sucks for y'all.

[Ronin Truth]

Well right there in the first sentence there is an error. Jesus did in fact tell his followers not to observe the Jewish law. All of the quotes provided show Jesus telling his followers to follow biblical Law. Biblical Law and Jewish law are not the same thing. Here is but one example of Jesus giving the smackdown to Jewish law:



No both of their doctrines are faith AND works. Paul doesn't say not to follow the Law, he says that it won't save you. He goes on to say that we absolutely should follow the Law: .
And Jesus is simply following the man's own beliefs until they come to a dead end (like the Socratic method). He eventually leads the man to realize he either can't or won't actually follow the Law. And if you keep reading to the end of the story, Jesus says explicitly that no one will be saved by following the Law:

Wrong. Jesus taught that biblical Law should be followed, not Jewish law.



No argument here.



As proven above, Paul's doctrine is not devoid of obedience, and Jesus' doctrine isn't faithless.



What's weird about that? Both Jesus and Paul clearly taught that Jewish law should have no part in Christianity. Or if this was meant as a reference to biblical Law, then it's still unsurprising; the author apparently doesn't realize how little respect the Church has for Christianity. This would explain why he can't tell the difference between biblical Law and Judaism, or the difference between faith and disobedience.

Wasn't Jesus a Jew? What are the differences between old testament biblical law and Jewish law?

[The Rebel Poet]

Wasn't Jesus a Jew? What are the differences between old testament biblical law and Jewish law?

The term "Jew" is a confusing one, as it can refer to a race (anyone descended from Judah), and/or a religion (practicers of Judaism). Jesus was of the Jewish race, but he did not practice Judaism per se, as can be seen in his many many disagreements with the Jewish leaders. Judaism is a combination of the Old Testament, the Talmud (which is another set of rules and laws), the Midrash (which is a set of commentaries and interpretations of the OT), and an extensive oral law passed down through various traditions. One good example of the difference is the Jewish rule that forbids eating meat and dairy together (the strictest Jews even have separate refrigerators and utensils for meat and dairy). This rule isn't from the Bible, so Christians don't observe it.

That's the best I can explain Judaism. Any Jews on the forum can correct any inaccuracies or omissions I may have made.

There certainly would be overlap between Jesus' practices and Judaism, but he clearly rejected all the extra traditions and omissions Judaism was making. It would be like comparing Catholicism to Islam. Is there similarity? Yes. Do they share some common foundations? Yes. Are they the same thing? No.

[Ronin Truth]

The term "Jew" is a confusing one, as it can refer to a race (anyone descended from Judah), and/or a religion (practicers of Judaism). Jesus was of the Jewish race, but he did not practice Judaism per se, as can be seen in his many many disagreements with the Jewish leaders. Judaism is a combination of the Old Testament, the Talmud (which is another set of rules and laws), the Midrash (which is a set of commentaries and interpretations of the OT), and an extensive oral law passed down through various traditions. One good example of the difference is the Jewish rule that forbids eating meat and dairy together (the strictest Jews even have separate refrigerators and utensils for meat and dairy). This rule isn't from the Bible, so Christians don't observe it.

That's the best I can explain Judaism. Any Jews on the forum can correct any inaccuracies or omissions I may have made.

There certainly would be overlap between Jesus' practices and Judaism, but he clearly rejected all the extra traditions and omissions Judaism was making. It would be like comparing Catholicism to Islam. Is there similarity? Yes. Do they share some common foundations? Yes. Are they the same thing? No.

I'll take that as a yes, Jesus was a Jew.

“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” -- Albert Einstein

[The Rebel Poet]

I'll take that as a yes, Jesus was a Jew.

“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” -- Albert Einstein

Oversimplifying things to the point of inaccuracy is just as bad. Hence the "but no simpler" part. Were you referring to religion? If so, then you should take it as a NO.

[Ronin Truth]

Oversimplifying things to the point of inaccuracy is just as bad. Hence the "but no simpler" part. Were you referring to religion? If so, then you should take it as a NO.

Was Mary a Jew? Was Joseph a Jew? Was James a Jew? Were the apostles Jews. Did Jesus teach and lecture in the synagogue as a child?

Are the Jews God's chosen people?

Nope, YES is a much simpler conclusion for Jesus.

[erowe1]

Too bad you guys can't partake in the New Covenant. Sucks for y'all.

We can't take the place of Israel or Judah in the New Covenant, but that doesn't mean we have no place in it. I see it as something similar to the blessings promised to all nations in the Abrahamic covenant.

[erowe1]

Christians are the house of Israel. Ten tribes that were scattered over the Caucasus mountains that settled in Europe and Canada and the US.

I don't understand how you can connect those two sentences together. If Christians are the house of Israel, then that means that when anybody, no matter what their lineage is, becomes a Christian, they become part of the House of Israel. But where do you get that idea?

[Jamesiv1]

Are the Jews God's chosen people?

No. The Israelites are Yahweh's chosen people - not God's.

Yahweh is not God Almighty. He is a Canaanite god of war - as evidenced all through the Old Testament and evidenced by all the wars since.

Yahweh had been trying to make a deal with the descendants of Jacob for generations, and finally got 'er done on Mount Sinai.

Noah and Abraham worshiped God Almighty - the God of Gods. That explains the animosity between the descendants of Ishmael who worship the God of Abraham, and the descendants of Jacob who serve Yahweh (not all of them do).

Follow the money. More specifically, follow the gold.

[donnay]

I don't understand how you can connect those two sentences together. If Christians are the house of Israel, then that means that when anybody, no matter what their lineage is, becomes a Christian, they become part of the House of Israel. But where do you get that idea?

http://worldeventsandthebible.com/20...who-claim.html

[Theocrat]

Jesus vs Paul

There are remarkable differences between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus. Paul taught his followers not to observe the Jewish Law:

Galatians 2:15-16

We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Paul's doctrine (faith not works) is central to modern Christianity, but, fundamentally different to Jesus' doctrine (works not faith):

Matthew 19:16-17

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only one who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

As far as Jesus was concerned, Christians were to follow the Jewish Law until heaven and earth disappeared:

Matthew 5:17-19

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Bible clearly states, that Jesus did not intend for his doctrine to be superseded by Paul's:

Matthew 28:19-20

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.

Most Christians are left with the amazing contradiction; that they are following Paul's doctrine (faith not works), rather than Jesus' (works not faith). When one factors in:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.'

And,

Matthew 25: 41, 46.

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

It seems surprising that more fundamentalist Christians aren't observing the Jewish Law and all its precepts.

http://www.christianitydisproved.com...s-vs-paul.html

I hope you realize that the verse divisions in our current Bibles were not inspired by God. Therefore, when you lift the verses off the pages and study them within their respective contexts, you can clearly see that there are no contradictions between Jesus and Paul. I thought you knew that basic hermeneutic, at least.

But, of course, you won't do that because you always seek to engage in cheap and lazy scholarship (copy and paste, copy and paste, copy and paste...), Ronin. It's time to put your "samurai sword" down, and go read some books in a seminary library.

[Ronin Truth]

I hope you realize that the verse divisions in our current Bibles were not inspired by God. Therefore, when you lift the verses off the pages and study them within their respective contexts, you can clearly see that there are no contradictions between Jesus and Paul. I thought you knew that basic hermeneutic, at least.

But, of course, you won't do that because you always seek to engage in cheap and lazy scholarship (copy and paste, copy and paste, copy and paste...), Ronin. It's time to put your "samurai sword" down, and go read some books in a seminary library.

Thanks anyway, but no thanks, I have many better and more interesting things to read than Paulinist bogus propaganda and tripe.

Saving Jesus from the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus (pdf)

[Theocrat]

Thanks anyway, but no thanks, I have many better and more interesting things to read than Paulinist bogus propaganda and tripe.

Saving Jesus from the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus (pdf)

Spoken like someone who is a follower of Satan.

[Ronin Truth]

Spoken like someone who is a follower of Satan.

You're the voting statist, not me.

Jesus vs. Paul - Christianity’s Greatest Lies Exposed

[Theocrat]

You're the voting statist, not me.

Jesus vs. Paul - Christianity’s Greatest Lies Exposed

Yeah, right. I'm a follower of Satan for voting, but you're the one posting something entitled, "Christianity's Greatest Lies Exposed."

[Ronin Truth]

Yeah, right. I'm a follower of Satan for voting, but you're the one posting something entitled, "Christianity's Greatest Lies Exposed."

Admitting your problem (sin) is the beginning of a solution.

Jesus Is an Anarchist (pdf)

[Theocrat]

Admitting your problem (sin) is the beginning of a solution.

Jesus Is an Anarchist (pdf)

Voting isn't a sin, neither is having a representative government. But I don't expect you to understand why that's true because you're not interested in truth, and scholarship is not one of your fortes. So, just keep yourself busy with your "copy and pastes," like a good little boy.

[Ronin Truth]

Voting isn't a sin, neither is having a representative government. But I don't expect you to understand why that's true because you're not interested in truth, and scholarship is not one of your fortes. So, just keep yourself busy with your "copy and pastes," like a good little boy.

A plethora of scriptural evidence exists to confirm the above conclusion that Satan is in control of human governments and all worldly authority.

For starters:

1 John 5:19: We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of Satan.
According to John, the world is under the control of Satan, just as Satan himself claimed during Jesus’ temptation.
A constant theme throughout the New Testament is the warning against becoming too involved with Satan’s world. The earthly world is identified as Satan’s realm, while Christians are called to reject the world and follow God. The following are just a couple of such passages:

James 4:4-7: You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God… Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

1 John 2:15-17: Do not love the world or anything in the world… For everything in the world… comes not from the Father but from the world…

Rather than following earthly authority, that authority which comes from Satan, Christians are called upon to follow God’s authority, and the authority of the teachings of God’s son, Jesus.

This world is not my home. I'm just passing through.

[Theocrat]

This world is not my home. I'm just passing through.

Thank you for proving my point about your lack of scholarship.

[Ronin Truth]

Thank you for proving my point about your lack of scholarship.

Not really much of a point, since I never claimed to be. Nor would I ever want or need to be. Science is much more interesting.

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian." -- Mark Twain, "Notebook"

BTW, and thank you for proving my point about your not being a Winter Olympics women's ice skating champion.