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Thread: Dog behavioral issues....

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by bunklocoempire View Post
    Or a safe space.


    Late to the party here, but here's another positive result for the food denial/allow, behavior mod method.

    Earlier this year I hopped over to our son's place to help him paint the house. The paint job was outdoors and so was our son's underfoot, large pit-mix. I hadn't seen the dog for a while, and then only very briefly. I was working by myself that week and only had time for the prep/paint -zero time for dog training, and zero time to deal with a constantly underfoot dog dragging my stuff all over the place with his lead/run.

    Dog did not respond well to my "hands on", show domination over dog routine. Dog treated all physical contact like a friendly, intense, wrestling game, no behavior change, and dog had no clue as to what I was trying to accomplish. lol

    I then tried what Presence mentioned, and what I had seen dog whisper guy do.

    I told our son that I would feed Apa each day I was staying with him, and then I spent about 5 minutes, twice a day, in between Apa and his food bowl.

    The old "allow them to eat trick".

    The effects were immediate. It was my first time ever using that trick with Apa, and I was pretty amazed at the results, Apa wasn't doing algebra or anything, but he was much, much more attentive to my directions during the day, as I power-washed and painted around him. Apa isn't a rescue pit, but he does have his pack-maintaining challenges due to our son's schedule. Apa isn't doing poorly, but he could be doing so much better as far as training and being a more satisfied dog.

    That 5 minute food allow/deny thing is the quickest, easiest, dog behavior mod method I've ever experienced.
    Thanks for that. I can't agree more. Newman today decided to challenge the dog feeding. But, much gentler. Newman has been eating from the bowl, in my hands not on the floor, and from my hand. Towards the end of the feeding he lied down. Thinking I would put it on floor, which is the point he becomes possessive. I put the bowl on the table, turned around and made a post and when I turned around again he was back up and accepted the way I was serving.



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  3. #62
    @phill4paul - Amazing the power of associating calmness with events or objects, huh? Dog training isnt supposed to be stressful for either humans or dogs. If it is, we are doing something wrong, but if we do it right, then it becomes an easy way for both of us to "chillax"!
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  4. #63
    Something that is very important which also carries over to a more responsive dog during training time is to take time to bond with dogs when not training them. That's something else. It goes a long way.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Something that is very important which also carries over to a more responsive dog during training time is to take time to bond with dogs when not training them. That's something else. It goes a long way.
    Yup. Doing that. I'm working out a system. Each is getting some play/bonding time. It's very important. Just as important as not responding. I crated Lilly. First night. I've worked with her through the afternoon. At first I had to pull her to the crate then entice her in. She hated it. Always clawing at the door. I'd give her 5 mins. or so then go and open her crate. Once she got over the dragging and responded to "come" I put her in but left the door open. Listening closely from the next room and correcting her to go back in if she moved out. I put her in for the last about 45 mins ago. I was willing to leave the door open but she came out twice and so I secured it. She wasn't digging at the cage like she did before. All she did was whine. From the other room I just kept responding "quite now." Here we are and she is asleep. Newman's asleep on his bed. Life's good.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post

    Crate training. Personally, Im not fond of them. Mostly, its an upsell, but we can turn anything into a crate by the power of association. It could be something as simple as a pillow on the floor and doesnt necessarily mean "cage". Angela did have good advice by making the dogs "crate" (or pillow, or bed) their safe space where they can rest, since they associate that with a place that is their own and has no negative associations of punishment or corrections as best as we can provide. Personally, I like to let the dog associate the whole house as their crate, but not to 100% levels of safe space. Helps with potty training also. The anxiety you mentioned I think may be the result of a negative association that currently exists, and is also very similar to anxiety when you leave the house, so lets whack both of those at the same time.

    This actually sounds more like Separation Anxiety when Lilly is in the bathroom crate, which is causing the negative association with the crate. I dont think its fully associative with the crate itself, but you leaving that is causing the anxiety. This one will take some patience to resolve. First thing is to rebuild the association of you leaving with being isolated for long periods of time. And I think we are gonna need two different tricks to fix this. We need to have an association between the crate and the state of mind you want her to be in when she is in there. Have her go to her crate and lay down. Next, just sit on the floor and be very relaxed until she emulates your state of mind. Once she relaxes, praise, then move about a bit. I suspect when you get up, she will want to get up also. So you'll have to sit back down again until you can get up and she stays in her crate. Next is to break the Separation Anxiety. Have Lilly in her crate and you have to leave very briefly, then come right back. Start with 5 seconds tops. Just in and out of the bathroom where her crate is at. That will build her confidence that "you will return" and replace the association of you leaving with being isolated for long periods of time. The key to both methods here is that you leave only when their state of mind is calm, and build that confidence by coming right back. Ive met people who took their dogs to the vet for pills to treat their Separation Anxiety. One couple had a dog that started to get wound up when one went to the bathroom while we were in the waiting room. Dog started getting wound up. So I had them make fools of themselves by walking in and out of the bathroom for five minutes. Duration of bathroom visit was to walk in and walk out, like 5 seconds tops. The dog eventually got bored of going into that excited state every time they left their immediate sight. Their dog didnt need pills, just to be taught that leaving does not mean long periods of isolation.

    "OMG! Youre leaving? Noooooo! Hey, wait, youre back, did you forget something? Youre leaving again? Where did you go? Oh, youre back already? Oh boy, not again, are you gonna come back? Yep, youre right there. What was that all about? Now where are you going? Oh wait, youre already back? Oh, I see, as soon as you leave you just come right back. Humans are crazy. Okay, this is boring. *sigh* Im just gonna lay here while you do your crazy human in and out crap." Once a variation of that goes thru a dogs mind, you can practice leaving for longer periods of time. Be very incremental about leaving. Very briefly at first, then add a few seconds each time. A lot of it is to only leave when the dog is in a relaxed state because leaving while they are in an excited state reinforces the Separation Anxiety. Thus, when Lilly is in her crate in the bathroom, only leave when she is as calm as you can get her, and only very briefly at first. Separation Anxiety can be caused by a lack of "Return Confidence". In and out for such brief periods of time is not normal behavior for us because we leave to do things, then return. Those brief periods of time while we do our human things is associated with isolation and with a lack of Return Confidence (where you return to them), they start to question if you are ever coming back. In and Out answers that question that "you will return" no matter what. All of that is pretty well amplified by being a puppy which means lack of context on which to build correct associations with, and dogs are pack animals who don't enjoy long periods of isolation with an unknown factor of "Return" factored in.

    But yeah, crates in general I think is associative on human part with "cage", and may be better associated with "bed" when it is treated like a bed and not a prison.
    You are spot on with separation anxiety. We had no choice to leave her anywhere but the crate if both were out of the house. Giving her free reign meant furniture, rug, trim damage upon return. She will have to learn larger freedom comes with good behavior. That said, I think I was pretty successful this day. We went from having to be dragged to the crate, to coming to the crate. I got her used to it. Staying in the room with her as you suggested. Praising for being in. We fed her in it. When all was said and done and I locked the door this evening she only cried for 45 mins. then went to sleep.
    I'm counting that as a one day victory. I'll see what tomorrow brings.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Yup. Doing that. I'm working out a system. Each is getting some play/bonding time. It's very important. Just as important as not responding. I crated Lilly. First night. I've worked with her through the afternoon. At first I had to pull her to the crate then entice her in. She hated it. Always clawing at the door. I'd give her 5 mins. or so then go and open her crate. Once she got over the dragging and responded to "come" I put her in but left the door open. Listening closely from the next room and correcting her to go back in if she moved out. I put her in for the last about 45 mins ago. I was willing to leave the door open but she came out twice and so I secured it. She wasn't digging at the cage like she did before. All she did was whine. From the other room I just kept responding "quite now." Here we are and she is asleep. Newman's asleep on his bed. Life's good.
    Yeah, they'll adapt to what you're doing pretty quick. Sounds like you have it under control anyway. But dogs are great, though, aren't they? They're like kids, really. They'll test you, for sure.

    I still have some stuff to straighten out with my Malinois, too. He's barely a year old but he's a freaking ferrari, man. Very high drive. And igrant, too. Sometimes I'll just be sitting back on the couch lounging and the igrant ass will just come up to me and box me in the face with his paw. He just wants to play but he doesn't know his own strength.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    He just wants to play but he doesn't know his own strength.
    Cassie is like that still,, and she is 7.

    She behaves differently with me and with Carol..
    I'm her chew toy,, Honey is her best friend.

    Not mean at all,, but she may knock you down to lick your whole face.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Any ideas?
    Difficult to say. You probably don't know the addition's history, correct? Assuming so, you have little to no idea what he may have been through. Some of these critters have an "on" switch that, when triggered, brings the wild beast out for some play time. My friend Mike has a cat I call "Bill". Bill is a very sweet, friendly cat... except there's this switch. When it turns on, you need to be VERY careful around him because the feral monster has awakened. Bill is large and very strong. He went after "the baby" (another cat) the other day and when I intervened, he made fillet-o-fish of my left wrist. First time he ever went that far, but I now have a sliced up arm, yet did nothing provocative. Your dog may have something similar going on - just guessing and tossing it out for your consideration. Is the dog very young? It could just be the impulses of youth at play.

    Whatever the case, you need to firmly establish with him that YOU are the alpha.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.


  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Difficult to say. You probably don't know the addition's history, correct? Assuming so, you have little to no idea what he may have been through. Some of these critters have an "on" switch that, when triggered, brings the wild beast out for some play time. My friend Mike has a cat I call "Bill". Bill is a very sweet, friendly cat... except there's this switch. When it turns on, you need to be VERY careful around him because the feral monster has awakened. Bill is large and very strong. He went after "the baby" (another cat) the other day and when I intervened, he made fillet-o-fish of my left wrist. First time he ever went that far, but I now have a sliced up arm, yet did nothing provocative. Your dog may have something similar going on - just guessing and tossing it out for your consideration. Is the dog very young? It could just be the impulses of youth at play.

    Whatever the case, you need to firmly establish with him that YOU are the alpha.
    The addition is the younger one. Lilly is female/6 months. Newman is male/3 yrs. We got her through a pit bull rescue. She was found at a dumpster at a few weeks old. She is ok. She has no problem being the lowest in the pack order. Newman the older is being the aggressor. More than likely because we humans screwed up. He loved her when she first came and would sleep with her, play, etc. Then he turned on a dime. I guess she just got older and he is wanting to establish her as his sub. We allowed her to sleep on his bed and both to get on the couch. I would also feed her first as it was simply more convenient. Dogs don't think like humans and these things indicated to her that we were allowing her to move up in the pack order.

    As far as today went. Was a bit busy. Still made time for play and obedience training with Newman and Lilly separately. About 30 mins. each. Did a bit of crate training with Lilly.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 06-02-2016 at 05:51 PM.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I would also feed her first as it was simply more convenient.
    the dog that wins the tug of war; receives but doesn't give kisses to the other dog, steals toys, humps ...
    that dog gets fed first, asked to do the most, and praised first always.
    this way you maintain natural structure; that dog is top dog... under you.

    then 1st dog under you will will appreciate its position under you and will hump less, steal less, and be less aggressive... because as alpha in your pack you reinforce the notion of the omega "pack leader" as #2 to you; you let that dog know that you endorse its position; you recognize that it can hump, win tug o war, and earn kisses.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    the dog that wins the tug of war; receives but doesn't give kisses to the other dog, steals toys, humps ...
    that dog gets fed first, asked to do the most, and praised first always.
    this way you maintain natural structure; that dog is top dog... under you.

    then 1st dog under you will will appreciate its position under you and will hump less, steal less, and be less aggressive... because as alpha in your pack you reinforce the notion of the omega "pack leader" as #2 to you; you let that dog know that you endorse its position; you recognize that it can hump, win tug o war, and earn kisses.
    Yup. Establishing the pack every day now. Also making sure he is in no doubt the alpha. And as alpha Lilly is under my protection. I brook no discord in my pack.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The addition is the younger one. Lilly is female/6 months. Newman is male/3 yrs. We got her through a pit bull rescue. She was found at a dumpster at a few weeks old. She is ok. She has no problem being the lowest in the pack order. Newman the older is being the aggressor. More than likely because we humans screwed up. He loved her when she first came and would sleep with her, play, etc. Then he turned on a dime. I guess she just got older and he is wanting to establish her as his sub. We allowed her to sleep on his bed and both to get on the couch. I would also feed her first as it was simply more convenient. Dogs don't think like humans and these things indicated to her that we were allowing her to move up in the pack order.

    As far as today went. Was a bit busy. Still made time for play and obedience training with Newman and Lilly separately. About 30 mins. each. Did a bit of crate training with Lilly.
    Oh yeah... all THAT will do it. My Oliver is head of the house and he eats first, gets cookies first, loved first. It is important to them and we have to think as dogs in order to be fair to them. This can probably be repaired, but "convenience" may have at times have to take a back seat.

    Best of luck in your endeavor.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.




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  16. #73
    I think the next very important step is to create and build a positive association between all dogs.

    Supervise interaction and have both of them in a neutral area when both are relatively calm. If either starts to misbehave, minor corrections only as we dont want negative associations to be built here. Unless one of them is in "red zone" levels of aggression and if minor corrections dont work, use Redirection to put the focus of the dogs somewhere else that is more positive, such as taking both for a walk at the same time.

    Pack leader is always fair. If any dog feels that they are not being treated fairly and equally, they start to act out. Animals have an absolute ability to tell fairness in their treatment. Being treated fairly around each other will help to build the sense that they are "part of the pack" and not being excluded or treated unfairly. Walking them together helps to build the entire pack as a whole instead of focusing on the individual parts of it. For many humans, leading a Pack Walk is very empowering, so it is just as rewarding to us as should be to them. Bonus Points if you have a cat that wants to join you on the Pack Walk.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    I think the next very important step is to create and build a positive association between all dogs.

    Supervise interaction and have both of them in a neutral area when both are relatively calm. If either starts to misbehave, minor corrections only as we dont want negative associations to be built here. Unless one of them is in "red zone" levels of aggression and if minor corrections dont work, use Redirection to put the focus of the dogs somewhere else that is more positive, such as taking both for a walk at the same time.

    Pack leader is always fair. If any dog feels that they are not being treated fairly and equally, they start to act out. Animals have an absolute ability to tell fairness in their treatment. Being treated fairly around each other will help to build the sense that they are "part of the pack" and not being excluded or treated unfairly. Walking them together helps to build the entire pack as a whole instead of focusing on the individual parts of it. For many humans, leading a Pack Walk is very empowering, so it is just as rewarding to us as should be to them. Bonus Points if you have a cat that wants to join you on the Pack Walk.
    I agree. I'll be working on that. I have kept them separate since I first posted. Separate in the sense of never together unsupervised. But, also in the sense of being physically separated. Newman does not like bare floors. Terrified of it. By removing some throw rugs I have created safe zones for Lilly. The spare bathroom where she is crated and the kitchen area where we do NOT give treats. We make here lie on a rug that is away from us so Newman does not think we are favoring him when she is there and the one rug that leads outside is at the back of my chair and he can come to me if he wishes. So there is no jealousy in this arrangement. Only that she and him are separated by 5' of bare flooring. Lol. I always thought it was a pain in the ass because Newman had this neurosis but it is coming in handy now.
    But, yes, a supervised "get together" will take place this weekend. I want it on leash. Beth will have lil' Lilly and I will have Newman. We'll do some "pass-by's" and if that workes out we will allow them to interact a bit.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I agree. I'll be working on that. I have kept them separate since I first posted. Separate in the sense of never together unsupervised. But, also in the sense of being physically separated. Newman does not like bare floors. Terrified of it. By removing some throw rugs I have created safe zones for Lilly. The spare bathroom where she is crated and the kitchen area where we do NOT give treats. We make here lie on a rug that is away from us so Newman does not think we are favoring him when she is there and the one rug that leads outside is at the back of my chair and he can come to me if he wishes. So there is no jealousy in this arrangement. Only that she and him are separated by 5' of bare flooring. Lol. I always thought it was a pain in the ass because Newman had this neurosis but it is coming in handy now.
    But, yes, a supervised "get together" will take place this weekend. I want it on leash. Beth will have lil' Lilly and I will have Newman. We'll do some "pass-by's" and if that workes out we will allow them to interact a bit.
    How does the Mrs do with dog walking?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    How does the Mrs do with dog walking?
    Mrs. starts tomorrow. Would have been today but she went to a friends 60th last night and pulled a Suzanimal by downing a bottle of wine. In her condition I wasn't going to push it.

    So tomorrow. Starting with the new 6 month Lilly. 5-7 days of that and the same for me to work with Newman more and I think she will be set to take on Newman.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Mrs. starts tomorrow. Would have been today but she went to a friends 60th last night and pulled a Suzanimal by downing a bottle of wine. In her condition I wasn't going to push it.

    So tomorrow. Starting with the new 6 month Lilly. 5-7 days of that and the same for me to work with Newman more and I think she will be set to take on Newman.
    Hmm, might have her practice a solo walk first, just until they both get the hang of it...
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  21. #78
    Some non-beat-your-dog but strong physical means to assert yourself as alpha over the pack leader:

    Get on all fours and put one arm over the back of the dominant dog. As dog escapes... crawl forward and put your arm and weight of body back over the dog. The dog interprets this as your intent to hump; therefore dominance.

    Another good way is any time u see your pack leader laying down grab a hold of one of its rear legs and say "lemme see" then do a mandatory belly flea check and belly rub... even if you know there are no fleas; a mother dog would do this to a pup; therefore dominance.

    Any time alpha is acting up, pinch its ear just hard enough to create a sense of cringe. If you were momma dog or pack leader u would do the same with a nip instead of pinch.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    They'll probably eventually sort it out, on their own. If not euthanize the pit.
    Prescient.
    Training had been progressing wonderfully. Newman progressed that I took him off the harness and just used a collar. Keep them seperated was ended. Broke out the tug-tug and they ran all around the yard in play mode. Newman played awhile then backed off so I called it.

    Inside for feed time. Lilly went into the cage. I tried to feed Newman as I since this began. I'd put the food in my hand down by his face and he quit wagging tail and growled. I quit for a bit and then tried again. This time he showed teeth. This wasn't a bull$#@! challenge. He was at the point of biting my hand, I truly felt. I immediately put him down and straddled him. Took about 15 minutes but he got up, ran around in the next room for 5 minutes, then came back and in "good dog mode" accepted his dinner from my hand. S.O. even commented "how the hell does a dog go from the way he was to the way he is?"

    So, seems things are good. I go into the bedroom to bond. He seems all good. Grabs a toy and becomes possessive of it. I can tell a difference between play growl and possessive growl. I put the toy up. We have a good moment.
    Lilly wants in. He's non-aggressive. So I let her. She comes in behind me. I'm on my knees and petting Newman. Out of nowhere Lilly nips at him. I've never seen this before. Perhaps she was the one that has been causing trouble from the beginning. In fact, having witnessed it, I'm 100% sure.

    So he went for her. I moved to separate and my forearm arm was laid open. Not terribly so. Deep punctures without tearing. Enough for peroxide, neo-sporin and a gauze wrap. Feel it a bit on the muscle while typing. Most might want a stitch but I've had worse and know it will heal. Hella mad.
    So, Lilly is GONE. Tomorrow. Called the adoption agency and told them come and get her or she is gone. They are coming tomorrow.
    Now to Newman. A dog that bites is not a dog anyone should allow to live. Honestly, I'm a bit pissed and contemplating digging a resting place. But, I will put that decision off until tomorrow.

    My plan at this point is getting Lilly away tomorrow. But, even then, Newman is not off the hook. We will go through the motions without her present. If he continues to growl and show aggression with food I will offer him back to the adoption agency with full disclosure.
    Or I will dig a grave. I do not countenance a dog bite. For any reason. Except my S.O. But, if after Lilly is gone and he does not improve then if the adoption agency does not take him back then I'm picking up a shovel and a .22.

    But, I'm giving it a night to sleep on. My arm is throbbing and I'm highly pissed off. But, I need a night to sleep on it. Newman is outside in his kennel. And tonight he will stay there. All night. Lilly is in her cage. And she will stay there. Me...I'll try to calm a bit.
    He acted like he wanted to bite me over food. I put him on his back. Once I let him up he was a dog that obeyed every command. But, no mistake, when he was on his back he wanted to bite. I could see it in his eyes. I could see it in his mouth. Until, he settled.

    I dunno. Getting rid of Lilly may allow things to be as they were before. Maybe not. My arm hurts like $#@!. My fugue has faded a bit. But, at this moment I have no problem burying Newman at this point.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 06-06-2016 at 09:50 PM.

  23. #80
    @phill4paul - That sucks about Lily. I have my fair share of scars from dog bites too. Left hand is currently healing from a Mallet Finger from a hyperactive pitbull that kicked me while he was on his back. They didnt know, but were red zone excited level and there went my finger. Six weeks in a finger splint, not sure if it will fully heal yet.

    This sounds like a case where I believe I would have to be there in person to pick up on everything that we are missing by communicating by text. One of them is setting the other one off. Could very well Be Lilly, could be Newman. Problem is if either one has an issue, they both end up feeding off of it. All dogs give signs that they are about to strike, with the exception of a Startle. Ears up pointed at target of focus, shackles up, hyper focus, head cocked back, mouth closed, etc. Doesnt sound like either are truly aggressive, and Newman sounds like he is possessive.

    At this point, I would definitely recommend a professional. Not a schmuck at PetSmart whose job depends on selling you $#@! you dont need. I mean a true professional. I might even go so far as to ask a Cop who they know with K9 Units and talk to them about finding a truly qualified handler.

    Every problem can be resolved, it is now a matter of finding someone with experience in this specific type of problem, and the effort it takes to solve it.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Prescient.
    Training had been progressing wonderfully. Newman progressed that I took him off the harness and just used a collar. Keep them seperated was ended. Broke out the tug-tug and they ran all around the yard in play mode. Newman played awhile then backed off so I called it.

    Inside for feed time. Lilly went into the cage. I tried to feed Newman as I since this began. I'd put the food in my hand down by his face and he quit wagging tail and growled. I quit for a bit and then tried again. This time he showed teeth. This wasn't a bull$#@! challenge. He was at the point of biting my hand, I truly felt. I immediately put him down and straddled him. Took about 15 minutes but he got up, ran around in the next room for 5 minutes, then came back and in "good dog mode" accepted his dinner from my hand. S.O. even commented "how the hell does a dog go from the way he was to the way he is?"

    So, seems things are good. I go into the bedroom to bond. He seems all good. Grabs a toy and becomes possessive of it. I can tell a difference between play growl and possessive growl. I put the toy up. We have a good moment.
    Lilly wants in. He's non-aggressive. So I let her. She comes in behind me. I'm on my knees and petting Newman. Out of nowhere Lilly nips at him. I've never seen this before. Perhaps she was the one that has been causing trouble from the beginning. In fact, having witnessed it, I'm 100% sure.

    So he went for her. I moved to separate and my forearm arm was laid open. Not terribly so. Deep punctures without tearing. Enough for peroxide, neo-sporin and a gauze wrap. Feel it a bit on the muscle while typing. Most might want a stitch but I've had worse and know it will heal. Hella mad.
    So, Lilly is GONE. Tomorrow. Called the adoption agency and told them come and get her or she is gone. They are coming tomorrow.
    Now to Newman. A dog that bites is not a dog anyone should allow to live. Honestly, I'm a bit pissed and contemplating digging a resting place. But, I will put that decision off until tomorrow.

    My plan at this point is getting Lilly away tomorrow. But, even then, Newman is not off the hook. We will go through the motions without her present. If he continues to growl and show aggression with food I will offer him back to the adoption agency with full disclosure.
    Or I will dig a grave. I do not countenance a dog bite. For any reason. Except my S.O. But, if after Lilly is gone and he does not improve then if the adoption agency does not take him back then I'm picking up a shovel and a .22.

    But, I'm giving it a night to sleep on. My arm is throbbing and I'm highly pissed off. But, I need a night to sleep on it. Newman is outside in his kennel. And tonight he will stay there. All night. Lilly is in her cage. And she will stay there. Me...I'll try to calm a bit.
    He acted like he wanted to bite me over food. I put him on his back. Once I let him up he was a dog that obeyed every command. But, no mistake, when he was on his back he wanted to bite. I could see it in his eyes. I could see it in his mouth. Until, he settled.

    I dunno. Getting rid of Lilly may allow things to be as they were before. Maybe not. My arm hurts like $#@!. My fugue has faded a bit. But, at this moment I have no problem burying Newman at this point.
    Sucks man. The solution is not to shoot the dog though. If there wasn't such a big body of water in between us as well as all sorts of customs crap and import regulations I'd have said you could bring him to me. Maybe there's another member on the forums who'd like to take care of him in case you're thinking of digging a hole for him.

    Not here to critique you but I personally can't understand how you could kill/euthanize your pet when they are not suffering from something horrible. To me, pets are an extended part of my family and I'll raise hell to take care of them and make sure they're okay.
    "I am a bird"

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    Sucks man. The solution is not to shoot the dog though. If there wasn't such a big body of water in between us as well as all sorts of customs crap and import regulations I'd have said you could bring him to me. Maybe there's another member on the forums who'd like to take care of him in case you're thinking of digging a hole for him.

    Not here to critique you but I personally can't understand how you could kill/euthanize your pet when they are not suffering from something horrible. To me, pets are an extended part of my family and I'll raise hell to take care of them and make sure they're okay.
    Dog bites of that magnitude will rock ones world, so him being angry should not really come as any sort of surprise. It indicates a major setback, and that takes time for the mind to process and cope with. We cant really get angry at him for being angry, especially when he is doing the right thing and giving time for the anger phase to pass. If no permanent choices are made during that phase, then depression and bargaining will be much less severe to deal with. Phill needs time to be angry, then make a responsible decision. I've wanted to seriously injure some dogs too, but we all know better.

    For the record, uttering swear words literally helps us deal with physical pain.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Dog bites of that magnitude will rock ones world, so him being angry should not really come as any sort of surprise. It indicates a major setback, and that takes time for the mind to process and cope with. We cant really get angry at him for being angry, especially when he is doing the right thing and giving time for the anger phase to pass. If no permanent choices are made during that phase, then depression and bargaining will be much less severe to deal with. Phill needs time to be angry, then make a responsible decision. I've wanted to seriously injure some dogs too, but we all know better.

    For the record, uttering swear words literally helps us deal with physical pain.
    ^^ Which is why I curse a lot.

    I'm not angry at Phil, I have no reason to.
    "I am a bird"

  28. #84
    Headstrong dog.

    Headstrong man.

    You have the ability to reason and manipulate, to work toward long term goals.

    So the real decision you must make is if you want a dog that's as headstrong and loyal as you........(All dogs are loyal)

    Sucks that it's got to this point but my advice is to give it a rest, get rid of the pup, pen the dog and totally ignore him for at least two days beyond food and water, don't do the hand trick, don't even acknowledge him beyond his being an obstacle to placing food and water in his pen. After two days try interacting again, if he's not receptive or if you're uncomfortable in the slightest then, and only then, explore your options...

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Prescient.
    Training had been progressing wonderfully. Newman progressed that I took him off the harness and just used a collar. Keep them seperated was ended. Broke out the tug-tug and they ran all around the yard in play mode. Newman played awhile then backed off so I called it.

    Inside for feed time. Lilly went into the cage. I tried to feed Newman as I since this began. I'd put the food in my hand down by his face and he quit wagging tail and growled. I quit for a bit and then tried again. This time he showed teeth. This wasn't a bull$#@! challenge. He was at the point of biting my hand, I truly felt. I immediately put him down and straddled him. Took about 15 minutes but he got up, ran around in the next room for 5 minutes, then came back and in "good dog mode" accepted his dinner from my hand. S.O. even commented "how the hell does a dog go from the way he was to the way he is?"

    So, seems things are good. I go into the bedroom to bond. He seems all good. Grabs a toy and becomes possessive of it. I can tell a difference between play growl and possessive growl. I put the toy up. We have a good moment.
    Lilly wants in. He's non-aggressive. So I let her. She comes in behind me. I'm on my knees and petting Newman. Out of nowhere Lilly nips at him. I've never seen this before. Perhaps she was the one that has been causing trouble from the beginning. In fact, having witnessed it, I'm 100% sure.

    So he went for her. I moved to separate and my forearm arm was laid open. Not terribly so. Deep punctures without tearing. Enough for peroxide, neo-sporin and a gauze wrap. Feel it a bit on the muscle while typing. Most might want a stitch but I've had worse and know it will heal. Hella mad.
    So, Lilly is GONE. Tomorrow. Called the adoption agency and told them come and get her or she is gone. They are coming tomorrow.
    Now to Newman. A dog that bites is not a dog anyone should allow to live. Honestly, I'm a bit pissed and contemplating digging a resting place. But, I will put that decision off until tomorrow.

    My plan at this point is getting Lilly away tomorrow. But, even then, Newman is not off the hook. We will go through the motions without her present. If he continues to growl and show aggression with food I will offer him back to the adoption agency with full disclosure.
    Or I will dig a grave. I do not countenance a dog bite. For any reason. Except my S.O. But, if after Lilly is gone and he does not improve then if the adoption agency does not take him back then I'm picking up a shovel and a .22.

    But, I'm giving it a night to sleep on. My arm is throbbing and I'm highly pissed off. But, I need a night to sleep on it. Newman is outside in his kennel. And tonight he will stay there. All night. Lilly is in her cage. And she will stay there. Me...I'll try to calm a bit.
    He acted like he wanted to bite me over food. I put him on his back. Once I let him up he was a dog that obeyed every command. But, no mistake, when he was on his back he wanted to bite. I could see it in his eyes. I could see it in his mouth. Until, he settled.

    I dunno. Getting rid of Lilly may allow things to be as they were before. Maybe not. My arm hurts like $#@!. My fugue has faded a bit. But, at this moment I have no problem burying Newman at this point.
    Been following this thread.

    Sorry to read the problems you are dealing with concerning your dog(s). It's good to sleep on things, but I can relate as any dog that bit over aggressiveness I shot. But I have been bit before by breaking up fights too. Personally, if you feel the dog bit you on accident trying to bite her, I'd say try to work with your head in a good place. Flip side, if you feel he bit you on purpose, blow his brains out.

    I'm a fan of the bulldog breeds as well. I used to be one of those "pits are a crazy breed, and should all be killed" until I actually spent time around one my sister owned. That dog opened my eyes to how social and loving they are. On that note, if things go bad with Newman, look into Olde English Bulldogs. They were extinct, until they brought them back with some serious breeding plans. The Old English were the first bulldogs, and all breeds of bulldog stems from them (pit, American, English, Rott, Mastiff, ect). They are medium size (my male is about 50lbs and knee high), have that stout bulldog build, extremely good temperment, and very intelligent.
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Headstrong dog.

    Headstrong man.

    You have the ability to reason and manipulate, to work toward long term goals.

    So the real decision you must make is if you want a dog that's as headstrong and loyal as you........(All dogs are loyal)

    Sucks that it's got to this point but my advice is to give it a rest, get rid of the pup, pen the dog and totally ignore him for at least two days beyond food and water, don't do the hand trick, don't even acknowledge him beyond his being an obstacle to placing food and water in his pen. After two days try interacting again, if he's not receptive or if you're uncomfortable in the slightest then, and only then, explore your options...

    The bold reminds me of something I heard a guy say describing Chows Chows once....

    "So loyal they'd die protecting you, but so independent they won't listen to a word you say"
    "Self conquest is the greatest of all victories." - Plato

  31. #87
    Well, time and sleep does wonders to clear an angry mind though my arm still hurts like an S.O.B.

    Lilly will be leaving today. Her foster had expressed the desire to take her back if there were ever any reason. So, she will be going back to live with the foster permenantly. Sad, really. She is not so bad a dog. However, given the situation we feel this is the best solution.

    As far as Newman goes time will tell. He is penned and will stay there the rest of the day. Aside from giving food and water I have not interacted with him. I may decide to bite the bullet and send him to a professional trainer we have been recommended. It's a $600 bullet, but, again, we feel this is the best solution. I don't believe he intended to bite me. I just happened to be in the middle. We do have young grand kids that visit though. So that was where my largest concern lie. He has never acted aggressive towards humans or other dogs before though so I don't anticipate that he will again. Having been a witness to her being the aggressor towards him first has much to do with this decision. However, we do think professional training is the best course of action regardless.

    Thanks everyone for all the advise. There have been good and bad days during this training session. I wish that it could have a fairy tale ending, but it is just not in the cards.

  32. #88
    That's too bad.

    I may be way off base, I'm not a dog expert or anything but my doge doesn't really like other dogs. He's never been aggressive with them but I can tell he doesn't like them - especially puppies or hyper dogs. He will growl if he sees other dogs "fighting", even if they're obviously playing, or getting too excited. I used to take him to the dog park and we had to go in the big dog area because he hated the little yappy dogs. He would just sit there miserable and growl. I dunno why. He's never shown any aggression otherwise. Maybe Newman just prefers people company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  34. #89
    In light of the HOA banning thread I thought I should update this one from the dustbin: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-11-dog-breeds.

    Well, I probably should have posted this earlier, other things became more important and so I let the thread die. Let me take the time to thank everyone for their advise and well wishes.

    To put a bow tie on this package let me quickly summarize where things stand. With a little help from a pit-bull rescue volunteer we have been able to create a much better companion. The whole problem came down to the other adopted dog Lilly. Like most of us Newman would just not quietly submit to being attacked from the new addition.

    Things became instantly better once she was gone. The were still some behavioral issues we wanted to address and thankfully a rescue volunteer came and spent some time with us. I first asked her to access Newman to make sure there were not violent tendencies. After an afternoon, she said there was nothing wrong with him. He would be a fine pitty with a little training.

    And so we trained. I'm not talking about sitting or lying down or some such though he has since learned that to. Mostly with the food issue. She said that was paramount. So we worked on that and now there is no trouble with it. I can give him food, take it away, pet his butt or head while he eats and his tail wags the whole time and no growls. He understands the term "gentle" and immediately calms down if excited. He will bark from the porch if a car drives up but a simple command of "pen up" sends him to his fenced in space where he will stay without having to close the door until called out.

    All in all he has become a fine dog and has even become more mellow with age. He loves it when the grand kids come and he loves it when they wear him out pulling a little Red -Flyer wagon. I swear this dog was meant to be a sheep herder. He'll run forever behind that wagon making circles first to bark at the left side and then the right. Back and forth. I can even give him a "gee" or a "haw" to tell him which side I want him to bark at. It's hilarious but gives him a lot of exercise with minimal effort.

    Wouldn't trade him for the world. So, I guess the moral of the story is that, before shooting a living creature that you are dear to, out of anger, perhaps, sleep on it if you are able. Or as a sage friend once told me "If you're gonna shoot someone at least dig the hole to bury them in first. By the time you're done digging you might not be inclined to do the shooting."

  35. #90
    No surprise a vicious undisciplined man ends up with a vicious undisciplined dog.

    How about facing up to being psychologically unfit to own a pet?

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