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Thread: Dog behavioral issues....

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Alright, I have a couple of things for you to work on.

    Lets start with building trust. Have the dog eat the dog food out of your hand, literally. Its a calm way that you establish your leadership and authority as well as a source of all things positive. It will be kind of annoying but getting them to eat out of your hand builds that trust and helps them to understand what state of mind you want them to be in when they take the food.

    Next, lets redirect some of that negative energy and burn off the dogs. Need to have daily walks, on a leash. Same thing as above, it shows them who is the boss, and what being the boss means. Being boss means youre the source of all things positive. From the dog's point of view, it takes a hell of a lot of stress off of them knowing that someone else very capable is in charge, and allows them an opportunity to relax and see that submitting is a good thing.

    It is a pain as having a dog is a full time job. To be balanced, they are like kids and need almost constant attention.

    I believe you arent a dog abuser, and even harsh corrections arent abuse. We both know what abuse truly is and what it truly is not. Not worried about that at all. But what youre saying that youre doing isnt working, and its just a matter of learning why things arent working that hold us back from moving forward. Easy thing to do is look at everything from the dogs point of view with limited understanding of language and as a "child". That is when most people find that inner leader, and its just a matter of presenting things to a dog in a context they can understand.

    As far as what Gunny said, also very worth while to check out. I have a point of view and to get a better understanding of what goes on between a dogs ears, the more points of view of experienced handlers you can get, the better. If they are local, that is probably the best since Im west coast here...
    I think your methods are in accord with DTC. It's a pretty intense reward/stimulus routine. Negative correction does almost nothing for dogs, who seem to remember all the good things and instantly forget all the bad things, so even 30 seconds away they barely know what they are being punished for. Negative correction only really works "in the moment" and only insofar as you 'snap like alpha dog,' and even then it only works with certain things and not with others. Some negative correction is necessary of course, but insofar as I understand it 95% of moving a dog is "acting like their god (literally)" and "motivation by reward."



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Alright, I have a couple of things for you to work on.

    Lets start with building trust. Have the dog eat the dog food out of your hand, literally. Its a calm way that you establish your leadership and authority as well as a source of all things positive. It will be kind of annoying but getting them to eat out of your hand builds that trust and helps them to understand what state of mind you want them to be in when they take the food.

    Next, lets redirect some of that negative energy and burn off the dogs. Need to have daily walks, on a leash. Same thing as above, it shows them who is the boss, and what being the boss means. Being boss means youre the source of all things positive. From the dog's point of view, it takes a hell of a lot of stress off of them knowing that someone else very capable is in charge, and allows them an opportunity to relax and see that submitting is a good thing.

    It is a pain as having a dog is a full time job. To be balanced, they are like kids and need almost constant attention.

    I believe you arent a dog abuser, and even harsh corrections arent abuse. We both know what abuse truly is and what it truly is not. Not worried about that at all. But what youre saying that youre doing isnt working, and its just a matter of learning why things arent working that hold us back from moving forward. Easy thing to do is look at everything from the dogs point of view with limited understanding of language and as a "child". That is when most people find that inner leader, and its just a matter of presenting things to a dog in a context they can understand.

    As far as what Gunny said, also very worth while to check out. I have a point of view and to get a better understanding of what goes on between a dogs ears, the more points of view of experienced handlers you can get, the better. If they are local, that is probably the best since Im west coast here...
    Ok. I'm definitely game and fully engaged. I owe that to them. I'll feed fro hand starting at the morning feeding. I've done this before. He is fine with taking hand offerings. For his own reasons once it is in a bowl and on the ground it becomes his food. Possessive.

    Now let me give a bit of background which may make some difference. Newman is "special." We were told he was from a large litter in which the pups fought for teat access. Perhaps he got a bit rough but at some point his mother bit his head and shook him. This caused eye damage and neck damage. He honestly couldn't make out shapes enough not to run into them. He has worked this out and even though one eye is always dialated is able to run through the woods without running into trees. His head cock has also worked itself out. He was actually in water therapy before we got him. I just worked with him doing massage. But, this took some time and Trust. He did not even like being touched three years ago. Now he seeks it if only for a brief time.

    The leash walking? OK. We'll revisit that. He doesn't like it and since we live deep in the woods there wasn't much need for it. But, as a training tool, I see your point.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 05-30-2016 at 02:33 AM.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Ok. I'm definitely game and fully engaged. I owe that to them. I'll feed fro hand starting at the morning feeding. I've done this before. He is fine with taking hand offerings. For his own reasons once it is in a bowl and on the ground it becomes his food. Possessive.

    Now let me give a bit of background which may make some difference. Newman is "special." We were told he was from a large litter in which the pups fought for teat access. Perhaps he got a bit rough but at some point his mother bit his head and shook him. This caused eye damage and neck damage. He honestly couldn't make out shapes enough not to run into them. He has worked this out and even though one eye is always dialated is able to run through the woods without running into trees. His head cock has also worked itself out. He was actually in water therapy before we got him. I just worked with him doing message. But, this took some time and Trust. He did not even like being touched three years ago. Now he seeks it if only for a brief time.

    The leash walking? OK. We'll revisit that. He doesn't like it and since we live deep in the woods there wasn't much need for it. But, as a training tool, I see your point.
    Yeah, from what I understand training a dog to heel (whether you would ever need such a thing or not) establishes you as firmly and repetitively as the pack alpha, from which point a gazillion little other issues flow. Think of it like training your little fighter jet to fly in formation.

  6. #34
    If one of his eyes is damaged, then he should probably heel on the side that puts his good eye towards you, so he can see what you are doing.

  7. #35

  8. #36
    Neutering the pit may just mellow him out a bit.

    I know it seemed to really work for me (or was that just a result of natural aging? ).

  9. #37
    I didnt know he had vision problems. None the less, I think the walk, even if not very far, will help. Dogs see the world more thru their noses than their eyes, so it is still mental stimulation for them. It also helps to burn off that excess energy as well. One thing I think it will do is teach him that you are his guide, so Newman will look to you for that guidance when he is in a new area for him to smell and explore. That turns the leash into a tool of communication instead of a device for restraint. He will learn that light tugs on the leash are your way of telling him that he is too far ahead or whatever the case may be, and once he understands that, he will become the one that tries to make sure he isnt pulling you around. Walks also builds a lot of confidence and self esteem, which could already be compromised if he has vision problems and is unable to explore his environment as well as he would like. I think walks do wonders for dogs, even if it isnt very long. Fifteen minutes can do wonders.

    Once you try these things, tell me how both hand feeding and walking are going.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  10. #38
    Some really good tips here, in how to train compliance & obedience.

    Thanks!
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    I didnt know he had vision problems. None the less, I think the walk, even if not very far, will help. Dogs see the world more thru their noses than their eyes, so it is still mental stimulation for them. It also helps to burn off that excess energy as well. One thing I think it will do is teach him that you are his guide, so Newman will look to you for that guidance when he is in a new area for him to smell and explore. That turns the leash into a tool of communication instead of a device for restraint. He will learn that light tugs on the leash are your way of telling him that he is too far ahead or whatever the case may be, and once he understands that, he will become the one that tries to make sure he isnt pulling you around. Walks also builds a lot of confidence and self esteem, which could already be compromised if he has vision problems and is unable to explore his environment as well as he would like. I think walks do wonders for dogs, even if it isnt very long. Fifteen minutes can do wonders.

    Once you try these things, tell me how both hand feeding and walking are going.

    Hand feeding and walking are progressing well. I try to play a little "tug-tug" w/ him for about 15 mins. before I do the leash training to get some of the energy out of him. Today after about 15 min. on the leash, after we came back inside, he came back over to me with a questioning look on his face. I asked if he wanted to go for another walk and he did a couple of circles to indicate desire so we did another 10 mins. Less pulling. Stop/Sit commands obeyed. A little less treats and a bit more positive affirmations.
    I hold the bowl in my hands while he eats. Occasionally bringing it away from him, giving positive affirmations and head strokes than promptly return it. He doesn't seem to have a problem with this. Tail up and no hackles.
    I am still keeping his pen closed, unless I tell him to pen up and then make him sit before I open the door and let him enter.
    I keep both separated for the time being. Only allowing one out at a time. I want to give it a few more days before I supervise them playing together.
    Another week worth and then I will have the S.O. start training him on the leash. A friend of ours gave us an "Easy-Walk" harness and it seems to put him in his place when he decides to throw a conniption. Which has become less everyday and not at all on the second walk today.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 05-31-2016 at 06:34 PM.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Hand feeding and walking are progressing well. I try to play a little "tug-tug" w/ him for about 15 mins. before I do the leash training to get some of the energy out of him. Today after about 15 min. on the leash, after we came back inside, he came back over to me with a questioning look on his face. I asked if he wanted to go for another walk and he did a couple of circles to indicate desire so we did another 10 mins. Less pulling. Stop/Sit commands obeyed. A little less treats and a bit more positive affirmations.
    I hold the bowl in my hands while he eats. Occasionally bringing it away from him, giving positive affirmations and head strokes than promptly return it. He doesn't seem to have a problem with this. Tail up and no hackles.
    I am still keeping his pen closed, unless I tell him to pen up and then make him sit before I open the door and let him enter.
    I keep both separated for the time being. Only allowing one out at a time. I want to give it a few more days before I supervise them playing together.
    Another week worth and then I will have the S.O. start training him on the leash. A friend of ours gave us an "Easy-Walk" harness and it seems to put him in his place when he decides to throw a conniption. Which has become less everyday and not at all on the second walk today.
    Good to hear! Why are you hand feeding him? Has shown food aggression?

    My doge is having issues, too, but I think he's just scared. Ever since he got lost, he goes outside, does his bizness, and then stands there and barks until someone goes out and leads him back in the house.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Good to hear! Why are you hand feeding him? Has shown food aggression?

    My doge is having issues, too, but I think he's just scared. Ever since he got lost, he goes outside, does his bizness, and then stands there and barks until someone goes out and leads him back in the house.
    Yes. If the bowl is on the floor he becomes possessive. It was my fault I let that bad trait progress for too long. Trying to correct my bad parenting skillz.

    I thought your doge was going blind? Cataracts from age? Perhaps, this?

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Yes. If the bowl is on the floor he becomes possessive. It was my fault I let that bad trait progress for too long. Trying to correct my bad parenting skillz.

    I thought your doge was going blind? Cataracts from age? Perhaps, this?
    Best of luck with your doge. He sounds like a smart fella, he'll get it. He's also cute as hell. I would've had a hard time disciplining him. Props to you for taking the initiative and getting it straightened out before he really hurt your other pup.

    Yeah, cataracts. He is old, blind, and a little crazy, bless heart. I just realized he's almost 16. I guess he's entitled to get a little special treatment.

    It doesn't show up in photos but he's got a lot of gray around his muzzle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  16. #43
    Im glad things are going well.

    First thing, get rid of those damn harnesses. Its just more Marketing BS because they are more expensive than simple collars. Problem with harnesses is it reinforces a dogs instinct to pull on the harness. The best way for leash training is with a simple collar. No pain chains or fancy to-do harnesses. Collar should be high up on the dogs neck, and that will reign in any desire to pull you along. Throats are more sensitive than shoulders are to pressure so only light tugs are needed. Shoulders tend to cause "Atlas Syndrome" where the dog thinks it can put the weight of the world on their shoulders.

    Food Aggression in general. Dogs that become possessive of food often have experienced or currently see food as a limited resource. As always, the hardest part of dog training is communicating an idea to a dog in a context that they can understand. I've got a couple of really really big dogs and one cup of dog food will not fill either one of them up. I end up free feeding them. For this particular case, if your dog eats dry food, as soon as the food bowl is empty, put a small portion back in. After a while, their perspective will change as they gain "food confidence" in that they dont feel that food is a scarce resource they need to protect. Again, this is in general.

    For Phil's dog, I'd stick with the hand feeding for a while. This is more about creating an association of your Dominance = Positive Experience for them. This is also an opportune time to reinforce calm behavior over submission. Allow the dog to eat from your hand when they are calm creates another positive association between their current state of mind (calm) and food as a bit of a reward, which also teaches them, in a context they can understand, that calmness is what is expected.

    When you feel they are ready to be reintroduced, you need to be absolutely hyper aware of what the dog's body language is saying. Anything more than a glance is Focus. Focus can be either good or bad. You should be able to break that Focus by simply touching either of them, snapping your fingers, a leash tug, or doing something to garner their attention over each other. Watch very carefully the position of the ears, neck and tail. Standing straight up, ears pointed toward another dog (or any object of Focus), and tail held all the way up is dominance. The position of a balanced dog is about level with the floor, not too high, not too low. Sitting without being told to sit is good. Refusal to sit is possessive. It is probably a good idea to walk one by another one while restrained until they ignore each other at least a little bit. They can work things out with each other, but walking by with one dog on a leash and the other restrained teaches both at the same time you are the boss and expect calmness from both of them. If they are both being calm, don't forget to calmly reward both for that. Thats probably the one thing most people forget is to reward them when they are calm, or seemingly benign states. If they arent as calm as you would like, then lead by example and take a seat yourself while still holding the leash. That shows them you want them to just relax, and hopefully they will try to emulate your expressed state.

    Sounds like progress is being made however, and thats a good thing. Im especially glad to see you are putting forth the effort it takes to train them in a way that offers a positive solution to the issues at hand.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Good to hear! Why are you hand feeding him? Has shown food aggression?

    My doge is having issues, too, but I think he's just scared. Ever since he got lost, he goes outside, does his bizness, and then stands there and barks until someone goes out and leads him back in the house.
    Simple solution.

    Dogs see the world thru their noses. When their eyes start to go, start building him a "Smell Map". Smell is mainly how most canines navigate, sight is secondary. Use some items that arent going to be moved outside and have familiar smells and guide the dog to the locations so they can remember the smells of how to get back home. If you dont have any objects with enough smell, try using a small bit of ammonia on specific locations in your yard, or to identify a boundary. Problem with ammonia is it will need to be reapplied frequently. If you do use the ammonia, dont change brands. Hopefully, the result will be that when you guide them around and let them sniff where you put the objects or poured a cap of ammonia, he will start to get his navigation confidence back without being overconfident.

    Think of it this way, when you rearrange the furniture in your house, both dogs and cats immediately have to run around and "smell" where the furniture was moved to. All they are doing is updating their "smell map" for navigation. Cats typically do this more than dogs do because of size differences, but smell is such an important sense to animal navigation that both cats and dogs nearly on it. Hence all the whizzing on fire hydrants, trees, bushes, annoying Yard Gnomes, etc. Its not always marking territory, but creating a smell map they can navigate by.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Simple solution.

    Dogs see the world thru their noses. When their eyes start to go, start building him a "Smell Map". Smell is mainly how most canines navigate, sight is secondary. Use some items that arent going to be moved outside and have familiar smells and guide the dog to the locations so they can remember the smells of how to get back home. If you dont have any objects with enough smell, try using a small bit of ammonia on specific locations in your yard, or to identify a boundary. Problem with ammonia is it will need to be reapplied frequently. If you do use the ammonia, dont change brands. Hopefully, the result will be that when you guide them around and let them sniff where you put the objects or poured a cap of ammonia, he will start to get his navigation confidence back without being overconfident.

    Think of it this way, when you rearrange the furniture in your house, both dogs and cats immediately have to run around and "smell" where the furniture was moved to. All they are doing is updating their "smell map" for navigation. Cats typically do this more than dogs do because of size differences, but smell is such an important sense to animal navigation that both cats and dogs nearly on it. Hence all the whizzing on fire hydrants, trees, bushes, annoying Yard Gnomes, etc. Its not always marking territory, but creating a smell map they can navigate by.
    I think he may be losing his sense of smell. When I go out to fetch him, he keeps barking until I touch him and sometimes he jumps, like I scared him. I'm not sneaking up on him, I'm talking and calling him the the whole time. He also keeps walking into the beer cooler - it sits right next to the door his doggy door is on. I've noticed his vision slowly deteriorating over the past few years but he seemed to get around fine. However, this past year, especially the last six months, he's really gone downhill. I hate to say it but when he's been sleeping for too long, I wake him up to make sure he's still alive. He doesn't even wake up when someone comes in the house anymore. My neighbor came over (stepped over the doge) and sat on the porch with me drinking one night - doge was sleeping right there and didn't notice until an hour or two later when he woke up. At that point we were in the kitchen standing at the island and the doge started woofing (he finally smelled him) and looking for him. It took the poor doge 5 laps around the island to locate him and that was only because he ran into the side of his leg.

    The more I think about it, I do think his sniffer is broken. He generally tries to stay on the driveway, porch, or walkway and only barks for assistance if he wanders into the yard. He won't poop in the yard anymore, either. Much to Mr Animal's dismay, he started pooping right next to his driver side car door. Up until a few years ago, he would go in the woods to poop but after he got stuck on a retaining wall (I had to go get him and carry him down), he quit going in the back yard.

    I tell people he's retired from doging. He's done a fine job keeping us safe from postal employees, squirrels, and doorbells all these years and I figure it's my turn to take care of him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  19. #46
    Sadly, I don't think he has long. Once the sniffer goes, he only has a matter of months at most. Im sure you and Mr Animal will make the best of what time he has left to spend with you.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Im glad things are going well.

    First thing, get rid of those damn harnesses. Its just more Marketing BS because they are more expensive than simple collars. Problem with harnesses is it reinforces a dogs instinct to pull on the harness. The best way for leash training is with a simple collar. No pain chains or fancy to-do harnesses. Collar should be high up on the dogs neck, and that will reign in any desire to pull you along. Throats are more sensitive than shoulders are to pressure so only light tugs are needed. Shoulders tend to cause "Atlas Syndrome" where the dog thinks it can put the weight of the world on their shoulders.

    Food Aggression in general. Dogs that become possessive of food often have experienced or currently see food as a limited resource. As always, the hardest part of dog training is communicating an idea to a dog in a context that they can understand. I've got a couple of really really big dogs and one cup of dog food will not fill either one of them up. I end up free feeding them. For this particular case, if your dog eats dry food, as soon as the food bowl is empty, put a small portion back in. After a while, their perspective will change as they gain "food confidence" in that they dont feel that food is a scarce resource they need to protect. Again, this is in general.

    For Phil's dog, I'd stick with the hand feeding for a while. This is more about creating an association of your Dominance = Positive Experience for them. This is also an opportune time to reinforce calm behavior over submission. Allow the dog to eat from your hand when they are calm creates another positive association between their current state of mind (calm) and food as a bit of a reward, which also teaches them, in a context they can understand, that calmness is what is expected.

    When you feel they are ready to be reintroduced, you need to be absolutely hyper aware of what the dog's body language is saying. Anything more than a glance is Focus. Focus can be either good or bad. You should be able to break that Focus by simply touching either of them, snapping your fingers, a leash tug, or doing something to garner their attention over each other. Watch very carefully the position of the ears, neck and tail. Standing straight up, ears pointed toward another dog (or any object of Focus), and tail held all the way up is dominance. The position of a balanced dog is about level with the floor, not too high, not too low. Sitting without being told to sit is good. Refusal to sit is possessive. It is probably a good idea to walk one by another one while restrained until they ignore each other at least a little bit. They can work things out with each other, but walking by with one dog on a leash and the other restrained teaches both at the same time you are the boss and expect calmness from both of them. If they are both being calm, don't forget to calmly reward both for that. Thats probably the one thing most people forget is to reward them when they are calm, or seemingly benign states. If they arent as calm as you would like, then lead by example and take a seat yourself while still holding the leash. That shows them you want them to just relax, and hopefully they will try to emulate your expressed state.

    Sounds like progress is being made however, and thats a good thing. Im especially glad to see you are putting forth the effort it takes to train them in a way that offers a positive solution to the issues at hand.
    Thanks again for the advice. The harness is only for the initial stage. He cannot stand to be leashed. The harness allows me to control him better as it somehow shifts his weight to the side causing him to roll over on his ass. After one or two attempts he stops and allows the walk to proceed. I figured I would do it a couple of more days then switch to a simple leash/collar. I do understand the "Atlas" principle. Truthfully he would pull anyway. Even if it meant passing out. Rewards and positive affirmations seem to be getting him to the point of not pulling. It's a day to day situation so I will report back on it.
    I will watch for the "Focus" and try to break that. Also I've read that the body language of stiffed legged/ head and tail high is a dominant posture indicating possible aggression that needs to be broken when attained.
    Thanks again for all the tips!

  21. #48
    @DamianTV what are your suggestions for puppy crating. I have decided that the two need different areas and sleep spaces. Newman needs his bed back. I want to create a space for Lilly in a crate that is located in a side bathroom right off of the living room. This I think will serve two purposes. One Newman get his place in the pack re-established. His bed will be his again. Second Newman will not walk across flooring that is not carpeted. By removing the throw rug to the bathroom it creates a safe room that I know Newman will not be able to go after her.
    Problems: I have just put her in the crate and there is agitation/anxiety over being crated. Whining. Clawing at the door. What are some possible solutions for this? I have added a blanket over the crate to make it feel more enclosed and have also given a chew treat. Still does not like it. Not one bit.I do not wish to create a situation where she hates the crate so advise is appreciated.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The pen is a 20' x 20' enclosure. He would rather spend most of his time in it. It seems to be his "safe-space." And it has been a good tool. Anytime a stranger shows up he will bark and guard until I tell him to "pen up" at which point he will head directly to it. But, like I mentioned he became aggressive about it so I had to put him out of it and close the door for a bit. To his much agitated consternation. When I went to open and let him in again I made him sit, then lie down, before I granted him access. He was none to happy but eventually complied. I think perhaps he needs to realize that his favorite place is a privilege that only I can grant.
    Same with food, toys, even affection. Make him earn everything. The dog toys belong to you - you get them out to initiate playtime, and then put them away when playtime is over.

    There are lots of good videos on crate training. Easiest tip is start feeding her in it. Never use it to punish her.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Same with food, toys, even affection. Make him earn everything. The dog toys belong to you - you get them out to initiate playtime, and then put them away when playtime is over.

    There are lots of good videos on crate training. Easiest tip is start feeding her in it. Never use it to punish her.
    Yes. Everything has become this in these dogs lives now. Everything. I have removed her from the crate now. Once she had settled a substantial amount I put her on a leash and took her to a kitchen rug, make her, sit, lie down and stay. Took her 3 times but she is now sleeping. During this I made Newman stay, lieing down, on his bed. HIS bed. It is fully his now. Except that it is mine and saying "YOUR bed." seems to emphasize this. I used that with him when he was a small puppy and he is remembering this reminder that the couch, the human bed and damn near anywhere else is off limits unless I allow it.
    There is peace in this house at this particular moment. Both dogs are shagged-out after a day of intermittent training lessons.

  25. #51
    I use a 6' Leerburg leather leash for training. It's the best you'll find. Hand made.

    Either 3/"4 or 1/2" depending on the size of your dog.

    http://leerburg.com/amishleashes.htm

    And these are the correct training collars - http://leerburg.com/746.htm Just a quick pop and release with it to get his attention along with the right voice command. So, for me, it's pop/nein/fuss. Fuss being heal or on my left leg's pace. Just like that. Then, he's back where he should be. Eventually he won't try to lead because he'll anticipate the pop. Once he does that you'll never need to pop again. So, then, just a couple of days on that. I train in German personally but you don't have to. Reason I do that is so that he knows that I'm talking to him and only him. As well, other people don't interfere with his training that way during random group situations.

    Two days it takes to have them know their place. Which, btw, is left side right at your left leg. If you stop, then, he stops. If you go, then, he goes. Eventually you'll be able to move to off leash training and hand signals.

    P in the front with the training collar since he's supposed to be on your left side. Which means that when you put the training collar on him while facing him, it should look like a P. If you train him on your right side, then, Q in the front. But you should train him on the left side.

    I don't even hold my dog's leash. I either put it over my shoulder or he carries it himself.

    Every one of my dogs has been Schutzhund trained. So, I 'm speaking from experience here. You're going to get good advice and you're going to get bad advice. I've seen a mix of both in the thread. So, be careful with advice. But, yes, reward him for doing good. End of the day all your dog wants to do is please you. And dogs already know the way. It's us who need to learn the way. Which I say respectfully. When I'm training I have a belt pouch tht I keep rewards in. Here is the belt pouch and traing treats that I use - http://leerburg.com/trainingtreat.htm


    Here is a good youtube channel if you have some time to browse around - https://www.youtube.com/user/leerburg

    Food wise, I only feed Honest Kitchen. The Force variant. http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/force But sometimes I'll switch it up to the grassfed beef or wild fish variants.






    Once a day. 4 cups if he's active and 3 if he's not. And you can put some raw meat in there with it, too. But it's already mostly free range anomal meat. Grain free/GMO free. It's human grade food with all of the organic veggies and fruits in there, too. Main ingredient, though, is free range meat. Your dog will likely live noticeably longer. He'll be healthier. Which I know you're not asking about, I'm just tossing it in there.

    Kibble is basically just meal. And even the kibble that says meat is its main ingredient is just the ground up beaks and feet and garbage parts.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-01-2016 at 04:34 PM.

  26. #52
    While I'm thinkng of it, check out the way they make the leashes that I mentioned. They use the old fashioned tools.

    http://leerburg.com/amish.htm

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    I use a 6' Leerburg leather leash for training. It's the best you'll find. Hand made.

    Either 3/"4 or 1/2" depending on the size of your dog.

    http://leerburg.com/amishleashes.htm

    And these are the correct training collars - http://leerburg.com/746.htm Just a quick pop and release with it to get his attention along with the right voice command. So, for me, it's pop/nein/fuss. Fuss being heal or on my left leg's pace. Just like that. Then, he's back where he should be. Eventually he won't led because he'll anticipate the pop. Once he does that you'll never need to pop again. So, then, just a couple of days on that. I train in German personally but you don't have to. Reason I do that is so that he knows that I'm talking to him and only him. As well, other people don't interfere with his training that way during random group situations.

    Two days it takes to have them know their place. Which, btw, is left side right at your left leg. If you stop, then, he stops. If you go, then, he goes. Eventually you'll be able to move to off leash training and hand signals.

    P in the front with the training collar since he's supposed to be on your left side. Which means that when you put the training collar on him while facing him, it should look like a P. If you train him on your right side, then, Q in the front. But you should train him on the left side.

    I don't even hold my dog's leash. I either put it over my shoulder or he carries it himself.

    Every one of my dogs has been Schutzhund trained. So, I 'm speaking from experience here. You're going to get good advice and you're going to get bad advice. I've seen a mix of both in the thread. So, be careful with advice. But, yes, reward him for doing good. End of the day all your dog wants to do is please you. And dogs already know the way. It's us who need to learn the way. Which I say respectfully. When I'm training I have a belt pouch tht I keep rewards in. Here is the belt pouch and traing treats that I use - http://leerburg.com/trainingtreat.htm


    Here is a good youtube channel if you have some time to browse around - https://www.youtube.com/user/leerburg

    Food wise, I only feed Honest Kitchen. The Force variant. http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food/grain-free But sometimes I'll switch it up to the grassfed beef or wild fish variants.

    Once a day. 4 cups if he's active and 3 if he's not. And you can put some raw meat in there with it, too. But it's already mostly free range anomal meat. Grain free/GMO free. It's human grade food with all of the organic veggies and fruits in there, too. Main ingredient, though, is free range meat. Your dog will likely live noticeably longer. He'll be healthier. Which I know you're not asking about, I'm just tossing it in there.

    Kibble is basically just meal. And even the kibble that says meat is it's main ingredient is just the ground up beaks and feet and garbage parts.
    Thanks! I may invest in the collar. Right now what I have seems to work. I will see. I just took Newman up to the playground. He obeyed and even enjoyed being put into his chest harness. We were able to walk to the play ground with him heeling correctly with only a few voice corrections. No treats. His reward was the toy and 20 mins. of tug-tug. He enjoyed the hell out of it and at the end promptly sat and accepted the leash for the return. Half-way I treated him to fresh water from the well tap. It was a good walk.
    Next up. Time to take Lilly out for her play time and obedience/leash training. Then dinner. I'll be feeding her in her crate tonight.
    Actually they are both doing well, considering. I expect an earth-quake or something to shatter the calm any minute now.

  28. #54
    They'll work it out eventually. If they do get into a fight, the best way to break it up is to grab them by the tail and pull them away from one another. But when you pull them away by the tail, walk backwards and walk them by the tail backward and in a circular motion. It'll take their attention off of the other dog. If only one is being aggressive, then, do him. If both are fighting you kind of need two people present to break it up that way. But it works.

    Good luck, though. They are a job, for sure, when they are being that way. Stressful for you and them, really.

  29. #55
    Both Angela and Natural Citizen are correct, but I think it would help to dig a bit deeper and understand why the methods they mentioned work.

    I'll get to crates in a sec, but it is a very similar principle. First lets tackle why he doesnt like the collar / leash yet. Its also a major concept that needs to be understood.

    We experience everything in our lives associatively. That means that we either create new associations for new experiences or use previous experiences with existing associations, and that goes for every object and situation we encounter. So it isnt just about specific items like leashes, toys or food, but everything. This goes for humans and animals, and is the foundation of how we learn to expect outcomes of situations through individual experiences. Ouch, fire bad, fire cause pain, negative association, see fire again, dont put hand in fire. Well, fire actually has a pretty deeply rooted instinctual desire to run away from, so probably poor example. Baby birds are fed worms by parent birds, thus, association is formed that worms is yummy, find worms, eat worms, yummy. The experience each individual experiences, whether human or animal, can create an associative response. I know a guy that uses a rolled up newspaper to make loud noises that he uses to intimidate his dog into submission. I dont like what he does, but what he is doing is building a negative association with newspapers. A lot of dogs have certain things they are afraid of because of a previous experience that created a negative association with the item. This can include Collars and Leashes. One good thing about associative memory is that we can change the emotional context of all of these associations. And that is going to be key in getting him "leash trained".

    So now we know that the first step in what needs to be done is to create a new emotional context with the collar and leash. Next time you want to take Newman for a walk, bring the collar and leash but dont put it on him just yet. Put them in front of him, then we need to make the whole thing a positive experience for him. Offer your own calmness and praise when he sees the collar / leash and his response isnt one of fear. If he is fearful, put it the leash on the ground and show him that you are ignoring the collar and leash but giving him attention. That teaches that what you expect him to focus on is you, not the leash or collar. He will base his replacement associative response on your current expressed state. If you are agitated or angry when the collar is put on, then he associates the collar with you being angry. Likewise, if you are calm and dont pay much attention to the collar, he will associate the collar with something that can be ignored and will give you his focus instead of the collar. Once you are both relatively calm, you can pick up the collar and even rest the collar on his side, then start to ignore the collar again. It will break his focus on you initially, but when you start to ignore the collar, he should start to ignore it also. If the response is more negative than you like, keep working with the harness, but try putting the collar on his neck while communicating that you intend on taking him for a walk. Although the collar can be on, you can still use the harness for control while wearing the collar. When the walk is done, take the collar and leash off, but leave the harness on. This will start to create an association with collar and leash = walk. In general however, when trying to replace a negative association with a positive one, dont use any negative reinforcement or dominance at all during the process of putting the collar on, just calmness, and let him choose from the limited choice of ignore it that you offer.

    Cesar Millan - Slip Leash
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7gllm38sLI

    Yes, lots of words for a short 10 second process. Next part is the walk itself. Goal here is that the leash has zero tension on it so Newman focuses on you while he walks by your side. I believe the leash should be secondary in control during a walk, so issue verbal commands and corrections first. If they start to pull, give a semi firm "Hey" or Cesar's "Shh", give a respond chance to respond and stop pulling, then if they dont, give a noticeable tug on the leash. If pulling continues at that point, turn around and walk the other direction. The whole process should only take maybe two or three minutes at most. If they dont respond as you expect within just a few minutes, then the issue isnt the dog, the issue is what you are communicating to the dog thru the leash. Check your own body language and posture again. Is the dog putting tension on the leash or are you? (Harness or Collar) The more wound up and agitated you are, the more they feel that and the more they become excited and disobedient themselves. The self-recheck just means you are expressing Calm Dominance here, a balance between the two states, and the arm holding the leash should be relaxed and not putting tension on the leash. Then its just a matter of walk 10 feet, they get in front, verbal command to turn around, fair chance to respond, and turn around. Wash, rinse, repeat. If you are doing things correctly and are both Calm and Dominant, then they should start to heel as you expect, with Calm Submission. Turning around after a correction is a means of Redirection. Many people think that intensifying the correction would be effective, but that starts a war of escalation. Redirection is a term that talks about redirecting their focus or energy, not necessarily a physical redirection. Redirection I think is highly effective because it doesnt require any increase in negative reinforcement.

    We have the ability to heavily influence others by the body language we express. It isnt just limited to dogs, but people as well, including Cops and Judges and Employees. Our greatest difficulty as humans is that we have developed a very complex spoken language and have mostly forgotten about our body language, which is all other social species of animals primary form of communication. The concept of associative memory also extends to both body language and complex spoken language. For example, the word "apple" creates an image in your mind of a real apple, but the word "apple" itself is not an apple. The word brings up the image of an apple because it is associative with the sounds and the shapes of our letters with our experiences of real apples. Same thing with body language, some is learned, some is instinctual, but both are associative. Body postures can be interpreted as "words" in body language, which means everything is always speaking, and they are telling you how they are currently feeling about their current situation. Being able to read that body language is just a matter of practice. I remember a phrase but not sure where I got it from: "to hear what a dog is saying, all one has to do is listen". Lots gets lost as we try to translate body positions in to words that we have existing associations with, so we do make lots of mistakes. Its just continued efforts as we regain our ability to "speak body language" by building new associations with body positions and movements. This is what gives us the ability to tell whether we are the source of an excited dogs excitedness, or if the dog is reacting to something else. It is also why I am saying Calm Dominance over and over again. Actually, repeating is a Brain Hack so it is remembered, but point being that we remember Calm Dominance while in a leadership position with a dog.

    Crate training. Personally, Im not fond of them. Mostly, its an upsell, but we can turn anything into a crate by the power of association. It could be something as simple as a pillow on the floor and doesnt necessarily mean "cage". Angela did have good advice by making the dogs "crate" (or pillow, or bed) their safe space where they can rest, since they associate that with a place that is their own and has no negative associations of punishment or corrections as best as we can provide. Personally, I like to let the dog associate the whole house as their crate, but not to 100% levels of safe space. Helps with potty training also. The anxiety you mentioned I think may be the result of a negative association that currently exists, and is also very similar to anxiety when you leave the house, so lets whack both of those at the same time.

    This actually sounds more like Separation Anxiety when Lilly is in the bathroom crate, which is causing the negative association with the crate. I dont think its fully associative with the crate itself, but you leaving that is causing the anxiety. This one will take some patience to resolve. First thing is to rebuild the association of you leaving with being isolated for long periods of time. And I think we are gonna need two different tricks to fix this. We need to have an association between the crate and the state of mind you want her to be in when she is in there. Have her go to her crate and lay down. Next, just sit on the floor and be very relaxed until she emulates your state of mind. Once she relaxes, praise, then move about a bit. I suspect when you get up, she will want to get up also. So you'll have to sit back down again until you can get up and she stays in her crate. Next is to break the Separation Anxiety. Have Lilly in her crate and you have to leave very briefly, then come right back. Start with 5 seconds tops. Just in and out of the bathroom where her crate is at. That will build her confidence that "you will return" and replace the association of you leaving with being isolated for long periods of time. The key to both methods here is that you leave only when their state of mind is calm, and build that confidence by coming right back. Ive met people who took their dogs to the vet for pills to treat their Separation Anxiety. One couple had a dog that started to get wound up when one went to the bathroom while we were in the waiting room. Dog started getting wound up. So I had them make fools of themselves by walking in and out of the bathroom for five minutes. Duration of bathroom visit was to walk in and walk out, like 5 seconds tops. The dog eventually got bored of going into that excited state every time they left their immediate sight. Their dog didnt need pills, just to be taught that leaving does not mean long periods of isolation.

    "OMG! Youre leaving? Noooooo! Hey, wait, youre back, did you forget something? Youre leaving again? Where did you go? Oh, youre back already? Oh boy, not again, are you gonna come back? Yep, youre right there. What was that all about? Now where are you going? Oh wait, youre already back? Oh, I see, as soon as you leave you just come right back. Humans are crazy. Okay, this is boring. *sigh* Im just gonna lay here while you do your crazy human in and out crap." Once a variation of that goes thru a dogs mind, you can practice leaving for longer periods of time. Be very incremental about leaving. Very briefly at first, then add a few seconds each time. A lot of it is to only leave when the dog is in a relaxed state because leaving while they are in an excited state reinforces the Separation Anxiety. Thus, when Lilly is in her crate in the bathroom, only leave when she is as calm as you can get her, and only very briefly at first. Separation Anxiety can be caused by a lack of "Return Confidence". In and out for such brief periods of time is not normal behavior for us because we leave to do things, then return. Those brief periods of time while we do our human things is associated with isolation and with a lack of Return Confidence (where you return to them), they start to question if you are ever coming back. In and Out answers that question that "you will return" no matter what. All of that is pretty well amplified by being a puppy which means lack of context on which to build correct associations with, and dogs are pack animals who don't enjoy long periods of isolation with an unknown factor of "Return" factored in.

    But yeah, crates in general I think is associative on human part with "cage", and may be better associated with "bed" when it is treated like a bed and not a prison.

    A lot of the body language that I talk about in dogs simply can not be expressed in a text based post. It is one of the reasons I think shows like Dog Whisperer are very effective. In text, we are limited in our perspectives and cant directly observe the context of a situation and miss a ton in the text. Thus, videos are highly recommended. I hope that by visually observing the body language of dogs in general, we can increase our own perspectives to understand how a dog feels and how to effectively guide them to an overall positive life.

    The Dog Whisperer How to Raise the Perfect Dog
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBWPxExzsrI



    Any other questions?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Both Angela and Natural Citizen are correct, but I think it would help to dig a bit deeper and understand why the methods they mentioned work.

    I'll get to crates in a sec, but it is a very similar principle. First lets tackle why he doesnt like the collar / leash yet. Its also a major concept that needs to be understood.

    We experience everything in our lives associatively. That means that we either create new associations for new experiences or use previous experiences with existing associations, and that goes for every object and situation we encounter. So it isnt just about specific items like leashes, toys or food, but everything. This goes for humans and animals, and is the foundation of how we learn to expect outcomes of situations through individual experiences. Ouch, fire bad, fire cause pain, negative association, see fire again, dont put hand in fire. Well, fire actually has a pretty deeply rooted instinctual desire to run away from, so probably poor example. Baby birds are fed worms by parent birds, thus, association is formed that worms is yummy, find worms, eat worms, yummy. The experience each individual experiences, whether human or animal, can create an associative response. I know a guy that uses a rolled up newspaper to make loud noises that he uses to intimidate his dog into submission. I dont like what he does, but what he is doing is building a negative association with newspapers. A lot of dogs have certain things they are afraid of because of a previous experience that created a negative association with the item. This can include Collars and Leashes. One good thing about associative memory is that we can change the emotional context of all of these associations. And that is going to be key in getting him "leash trained".

    So now we know that the first step in what needs to be done is to create a new emotional context with the collar and leash. Next time you want to take Newman for a walk, bring the collar and leash but dont put it on him just yet. Put them in front of him, then we need to make the whole thing a positive experience for him. Offer your own calmness and praise when he sees the collar / leash and his response isnt one of fear. If he is fearful, put it the leash on the ground and show him that you are ignoring the collar and leash but giving him attention. That teaches that what you expect him to focus on is you, not the leash or collar. He will base his replacement associative response on your current expressed state. If you are agitated or angry when the collar is put on, then he associates the collar with you being angry. Likewise, if you are calm and dont pay much attention to the collar, he will associate the collar with something that can be ignored and will give you his focus instead of the collar. Once you are both relatively calm, you can pick up the collar and even rest the collar on his side, then start to ignore the collar again. It will break his focus on you initially, but when you start to ignore the collar, he should start to ignore it also. If the response is more negative than you like, keep working with the harness, but try putting the collar on his neck while communicating that you intend on taking him for a walk. Although the collar can be on, you can still use the harness for control while wearing the collar. When the walk is done, take the collar and leash off, but leave the harness on. This will start to create an association with collar and leash = walk. In general however, when trying to replace a negative association with a positive one, dont use any negative reinforcement or dominance at all during the process of putting the collar on, just calmness, and let him choose from the limited choice of ignore it that you offer.

    Cesar Millan - Slip Leash
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7gllm38sLI

    Yes, lots of words for a short 10 second process. Next part is the walk itself. Goal here is that the leash has zero tension on it so Newman focuses on you while he walks by your side. I believe the leash should be secondary in control during a walk, so issue verbal commands and corrections first. If they start to pull, give a semi firm "Hey" or Cesar's "Shh", give a respond chance to respond and stop pulling, then if they dont, give a noticeable tug on the leash. If pulling continues at that point, turn around and walk the other direction. The whole process should only take maybe two or three minutes at most. If they dont respond as you expect within just a few minutes, then the issue isnt the dog, the issue is what you are communicating to the dog thru the leash. Check your own body language and posture again. Is the dog putting tension on the leash or are you? (Harness or Collar) The more wound up and agitated you are, the more they feel that and the more they become excited and disobedient themselves. The self-recheck just means you are expressing Calm Dominance here, a balance between the two states, and the arm holding the leash should be relaxed and not putting tension on the leash. Then its just a matter of walk 10 feet, they get in front, verbal command to turn around, fair chance to respond, and turn around. Wash, rinse, repeat. If you are doing things correctly and are both Calm and Dominant, then they should start to heel as you expect, with Calm Submission. Turning around after a correction is a means of Redirection. Many people think that intensifying the correction would be effective, but that starts a war of escalation. Redirection is a term that talks about redirecting their focus or energy, not necessarily a physical redirection. Redirection I think is highly effective because it doesnt require any increase in negative reinforcement.

    We have the ability to heavily influence others by the body language we express. It isnt just limited to dogs, but people as well, including Cops and Judges and Employees. Our greatest difficulty as humans is that we have developed a very complex spoken language and have mostly forgotten about our body language, which is all other social species of animals primary form of communication. The concept of associative memory also extends to both body language and complex spoken language. For example, the word "apple" creates an image in your mind of a real apple, but the word "apple" itself is not an apple. The word brings up the image of an apple because it is associative with the sounds and the shapes of our letters with our experiences of real apples. Same thing with body language, some is learned, some is instinctual, but both are associative. Body postures can be interpreted as "words" in body language, which means everything is always speaking, and they are telling you how they are currently feeling about their current situation. Being able to read that body language is just a matter of practice. I remember a phrase but not sure where I got it from: "to hear what a dog is saying, all one has to do is listen". Lots gets lost as we try to translate body positions in to words that we have existing associations with, so we do make lots of mistakes. Its just continued efforts as we regain our ability to "speak body language" by building new associations with body positions and movements. This is what gives us the ability to tell whether we are the source of an excited dogs excitedness, or if the dog is reacting to something else. It is also why I am saying Calm Dominance over and over again. Actually, repeating is a Brain Hack so it is remembered, but point being that we remember Calm Dominance while in a leadership position with a dog.

    Crate training. Personally, Im not fond of them. Mostly, its an upsell, but we can turn anything into a crate by the power of association. It could be something as simple as a pillow on the floor and doesnt necessarily mean "cage". Angela did have good advice by making the dogs "crate" (or pillow, or bed) their safe space where they can rest, since they associate that with a place that is their own and has no negative associations of punishment or corrections as best as we can provide. Personally, I like to let the dog associate the whole house as their crate, but not to 100% levels of safe space. Helps with potty training also. The anxiety you mentioned I think may be the result of a negative association that currently exists, and is also very similar to anxiety when you leave the house, so lets whack both of those at the same time.

    This actually sounds more like Separation Anxiety when Lilly is in the bathroom crate, which is causing the negative association with the crate. I dont think its fully associative with the crate itself, but you leaving that is causing the anxiety. This one will take some patience to resolve. First thing is to rebuild the association of you leaving with being isolated for long periods of time. And I think we are gonna need two different tricks to fix this. We need to have an association between the crate and the state of mind you want her to be in when she is in there. Have her go to her crate and lay down. Next, just sit on the floor and be very relaxed until she emulates your state of mind. Once she relaxes, praise, then move about a bit. I suspect when you get up, she will want to get up also. So you'll have to sit back down again until you can get up and she stays in her crate. Next is to break the Separation Anxiety. Have Lilly in her crate and you have to leave very briefly, then come right back. Start with 5 seconds tops. Just in and out of the bathroom where her crate is at. That will build her confidence that "you will return" and replace the association of you leaving with being isolated for long periods of time. The key to both methods here is that you leave only when their state of mind is calm, and build that confidence by coming right back. Ive met people who took their dogs to the vet for pills to treat their Separation Anxiety. One couple had a dog that started to get wound up when one went to the bathroom while we were in the waiting room. Dog started getting wound up. So I had them make fools of themselves by walking in and out of the bathroom for five minutes. Duration of bathroom visit was to walk in and walk out, like 5 seconds tops. The dog eventually got bored of going into that excited state every time they left their immediate sight. Their dog didnt need pills, just to be taught that leaving does not mean long periods of isolation.

    "OMG! Youre leaving? Noooooo! Hey, wait, youre back, did you forget something? Youre leaving again? Where did you go? Oh, youre back already? Oh boy, not again, are you gonna come back? Yep, youre right there. What was that all about? Now where are you going? Oh wait, youre already back? Oh, I see, as soon as you leave you just come right back. Humans are crazy. Okay, this is boring. *sigh* Im just gonna lay here while you do your crazy human in and out crap." Once a variation of that goes thru a dogs mind, you can practice leaving for longer periods of time. Be very incremental about leaving. Very briefly at first, then add a few seconds each time. A lot of it is to only leave when the dog is in a relaxed state because leaving while they are in an excited state reinforces the Separation Anxiety. Thus, when Lilly is in her crate in the bathroom, only leave when she is as calm as you can get her, and only very briefly at first. Separation Anxiety can be caused by a lack of "Return Confidence". In and out for such brief periods of time is not normal behavior for us because we leave to do things, then return. Those brief periods of time while we do our human things is associated with isolation and with a lack of Return Confidence (where you return to them), they start to question if you are ever coming back. In and Out answers that question that "you will return" no matter what. All of that is pretty well amplified by being a puppy which means lack of context on which to build correct associations with, and dogs are pack animals who don't enjoy long periods of isolation with an unknown factor of "Return" factored in.

    But yeah, crates in general I think is associative on human part with "cage", and may be better associated with "bed" when it is treated like a bed and not a prison.

    A lot of the body language that I talk about in dogs simply can not be expressed in a text based post. It is one of the reasons I think shows like Dog Whisperer are very effective. In text, we are limited in our perspectives and cant directly observe the context of a situation and miss a ton in the text. Thus, videos are highly recommended. I hope that by visually observing the body language of dogs in general, we can increase our own perspectives to understand how a dog feels and how to effectively guide them to an overall positive life.

    The Dog Whisperer How to Raise the Perfect Dog
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBWPxExzsrI



    Any other questions?
    This will take some parsing through and I'll do it a bit at a time. Things are going a long swimmingly so far today and it changes by the hour. Honestly. It's been a good day of limitless training. I'm really amazed it has progressed so well. The difference between a few days ago and today are amazing. Both are smart dogs. Want to please. On certain issues they are stubborn as hell. I revisit these issues often but make room for the actions they don't mind repeating in between the ones they do have trouble with.
    As I said your post is a lengthy and informative one. I'll work through it point by point but even as I have posted today their actions have changed. Give me a bit. Still interacting and also working up dinner.
    again thanks.



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  32. #57
    I agree with the way you handled it in the op and I agree that the rabbit scat might be an issue.

    I'm of the belief that any dog that thinks its alpha in my house goes back to roll over before being fed; if that takes force so be it.

    Submission before every meal until recognition.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  33. #58
    @phill4paul - Im glad I could help and look forward to the progress you'll be able to make!
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Both Angela and Natural Citizen are correct, but I think it would help to dig a bit deeper and understand why the methods they mentioned work.

    I'll get to crates in a sec, but it is a very similar principle. First lets tackle why he doesnt like the collar / leash yet. Its also a major concept that needs to be understood.

    We experience everything in our lives associatively. That means that we either create new associations for new experiences or use previous experiences with existing associations, and that goes for every object and situation we encounter. So it isnt just about specific items like leashes, toys or food, but everything. This goes for humans and animals, and is the foundation of how we learn to expect outcomes of situations through individual experiences. Ouch, fire bad, fire cause pain, negative association, see fire again, dont put hand in fire. Well, fire actually has a pretty deeply rooted instinctual desire to run away from, so probably poor example. Baby birds are fed worms by parent birds, thus, association is formed that worms is yummy, find worms, eat worms, yummy. The experience each individual experiences, whether human or animal, can create an associative response. I know a guy that uses a rolled up newspaper to make loud noises that he uses to intimidate his dog into submission. I dont like what he does, but what he is doing is building a negative association with newspapers. A lot of dogs have certain things they are afraid of because of a previous experience that created a negative association with the item. This can include Collars and Leashes. One good thing about associative memory is that we can change the emotional context of all of these associations. And that is going to be key in getting him "leash trained".

    So now we know that the first step in what needs to be done is to create a new emotional context with the collar and leash. Next time you want to take Newman for a walk, bring the collar and leash but dont put it on him just yet. Put them in front of him, then we need to make the whole thing a positive experience for him. Offer your own calmness and praise when he sees the collar / leash and his response isnt one of fear. If he is fearful, put it the leash on the ground and show him that you are ignoring the collar and leash but giving him attention. That teaches that what you expect him to focus on is you, not the leash or collar. He will base his replacement associative response on your current expressed state. If you are agitated or angry when the collar is put on, then he associates the collar with you being angry. Likewise, if you are calm and dont pay much attention to the collar, he will associate the collar with something that can be ignored and will give you his focus instead of the collar. Once you are both relatively calm, you can pick up the collar and even rest the collar on his side, then start to ignore the collar again. It will break his focus on you initially, but when you start to ignore the collar, he should start to ignore it also. If the response is more negative than you like, keep working with the harness, but try putting the collar on his neck while communicating that you intend on taking him for a walk. Although the collar can be on, you can still use the harness for control while wearing the collar. When the walk is done, take the collar and leash off, but leave the harness on. This will start to create an association with collar and leash = walk. In general however, when trying to replace a negative association with a positive one, dont use any negative reinforcement or dominance at all during the process of putting the collar on, just calmness, and let him choose from the limited choice of ignore it that you offer.
    I've done these a bit differently these last coupla days. They seem to be working out alright. Newman now knows the difference between "going out" and " go for a walk." It's a bit strange, but we are at the point of working through it.
    The first day (two days ago?) I had to fit his chest harness. Extremely agitated and it took a bit of time. Much affirmations. I wish dogs could be like me and just be satisfied with a job well-done without accolades. Guess that's not gonna happen.
    Today I asked if he wanted to walk. He sat of his own accord and stared at the harness and leash. When I got them he got in the standing position he stood and let me harness him. I made him sit before letting him out the door. The minute we hit the porch, jumping-twisting-etc. But it lasted only a sec. Nowhere near previous. I think he is settling into it.

    As far as agitated state, me, I've adopted an extra layer of chill. I'm almost frikken Buddha. I'll probably kill someone in a road rage incident tomorrow. But, that's tomorrow. Reminds me of my nephew that has two sons 10 and 8 yrs. My nephew talks so low and steady I can barely hear him but his sons correct their action. Personally, given this exercise I'm going through, his way of dealing with his "wild childs" I'm gonna suggest he goes into dog training.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 06-01-2016 at 07:33 PM.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Build him a pizza oven. He'll like that.
    Or a safe space.


    Late to the party here, but here's another positive result for the food denial/allow, behavior mod method.

    Earlier this year I hopped over to our son's place to help him paint the house. The paint job was outdoors and so was our son's underfoot, large pit-mix. I hadn't seen the dog for a while, and then only very briefly. I was working by myself that week and only had time for the prep/paint -zero time for dog training, and zero time to deal with a constantly underfoot dog dragging my stuff all over the place with his lead/run.

    Dog did not respond well to my "hands on", show domination over dog routine. Dog treated all physical contact like a friendly, intense, wrestling game, no behavior change, and dog had no clue as to what I was trying to accomplish. lol

    I then tried what Presence mentioned, and what I had seen dog whisper guy do.

    I told our son that I would feed Apa each day I was staying with him, and then I spent about 5 minutes, twice a day, in between Apa and his food bowl.

    The old "allow them to eat trick".

    The effects were immediate. It was my first time ever using that trick with Apa, and I was pretty amazed at the results, Apa wasn't doing algebra or anything, but he was much, much more attentive to my directions during the day, as I power-washed and painted around him. Apa isn't a rescue pit, but he does have his pack-maintaining challenges due to our son's schedule. Apa isn't doing poorly, but he could be doing so much better as far as training and being a more satisfied dog.

    That 5 minute food allow/deny thing is the quickest, easiest, dog behavior mod method I've ever experienced.
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
    Ron Paul

    Please watch, subscribe, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report
    BITCHUTE IS A LIBERTY MINDED ALTERNATIVE TO GOOGLE SUBSIDIARY YOUTUBE

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