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Thread: The men America has left behind

  1. #1

    The men America has left behind

    http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/04/news...men/index.html
    Nearly one-quarter of white men with only a high school diploma aren't working. Many of these men, age 25 to 64, aren't just unemployed ... they aren't even looking for a job, according to federal data.
    ...
    "Thirty to 40 years ago, a man had a job at a shoe factory. His wife didn't work. They were able to raise a couple of kids," said Steve Sturgill, executive director of Community Action, which provides workforce and social support services for local residents. "That's not the case today."
    The politicians and media worship at the altar of globalism and unbalanced trade deals that got us here. They should be behind bars supporting it which is moderating my true opinion of what I think of them.
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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    The politicians and media worship at the altar of globalism and unbalanced trade deals that got us here. They should be behind bars supporting it which is moderating my true opinion of what I think of them.
    Bars might be too kind.
    ================
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  4. #3
    Should the government provide them with work? Maybe like some of FDR's jobs programs? Promise everybody a well paying job?

    Or free college education?

    Their college-educated peers, however, have fared much better. Only about one in 10 isn't working.
    One of the main problems: Many residents don't have the education or training to make it in today's economy. Only 14.4% have a college degree, compared to 25.6% statewide and 29.3% nationally.
    Meanwhile, unlike some of his fellow factory workers, Cavins is determined to get a good job. He's betting that a yearlong course in industrial maintenance will give him the skills needed to work in heating and cooling services, which his online searches found can start at $40,000 a year. He's willing to leave Scioto County and work anywhere ... in a hospital, factory, school or water supply facility, for instance. One day, he'd like to start his own business.

    The program, offered at Scioto County Career Technical Center, costs nearly $10,000 and has placed 95% of its graduates over the past two years in jobs that typically earn between $31,000 and $40,000 annually. To finance it, Cavins received a federal Pell Grant for $5,900 and took out two loans.

    "I didn't think I'd get anywhere without learning a trade," said Cavins, who graduates in September. "I want to give my family better than what I had. I want to try to break the cycle and not live on disability."
    Article notes many don't even bother looking for a job. Rather be on government benefits?

    Many of these men, age 25 to 64, aren't just unemployed ... they aren't even looking for a job, according to federal data.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-04-2016 at 07:09 PM.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/04/news...men/index.html


    The politicians and media worship at the altar of globalism and unbalanced trade deals that got us here. They should be behind bars supporting it which is moderating my true opinion of what I think of them.
    Thirty to forty years ago I was raising kids, that must have been a really good paying shoe factory. There were many women working at jobs, even "way back then".
    "The Patriarch"

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    "Thirty to 40 years ago, a man had a job at a shoe factory. His wife didn't work. They were able to raise a couple of kids," said Steve Sturgill, executive director of Community Action, which provides workforce and social support services for local residents. "That's not the case today."
    I keep seeing people say this. I don't believe it. Where's the data to back it up?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I keep seeing people say this. I don't believe it. Where's the data to back it up?
    Stay-at-home mothers through the years
    http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/bey...-the-years.htm
    In 1967, 49 percent of mothers were stay-at-home mothers. That proportion steadily dropped through the decades until 1999, when only 23 percent of moms stayed at home.
    Probably higher or lower depending on the region. When I was a kid most mothers were stay at home and there was plenty of blue collar manufacturing jobs that one parent could support an entire family. As I watched most manufacturers exit over my life time what I noticed it became a necessity and common for both parents in my community to work, there was an increase in poverty, families needing public assistance and an increase in broken families.

    After manufacturing exited another nail in the coffin of the middle class in my area is when construction and trades started using the large influx of available migrants which plummeted wages, raised unemployment, increased public assistance and moms having to work.
    Last edited by kahless; 05-04-2016 at 07:50 PM.
    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Stay-at-home mothers through the years
    http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2014/bey...-the-years.htm
    That doesn't prove anything about whether or not the same families could have lived on one income. There's a big cultural difference. It is now more celebrated for women to work, and there are also a lot more single moms.

    But I'm pretty sure that on average, you can buy more stuff by working fewer hours at average wages today than you could have 40 years ago. Those families that do have two incomes are generally just buying more stuff than they used to.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    As I watched most manufacturers exit over my life time what I noticed it became a necessity and common for both parents in my community to work, there was an increase in poverty, families needing public assistance and an increase in broken families.
    The determinative factor there is not the change in kinds of jobs, but the broken families.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That doesn't prove anything about whether or not the same families could have lived on one income. There's a big cultural difference. It is now more celebrated for women to work, and there are also a lot more single moms.

    But I'm pretty sure that on average, you can buy more stuff by working fewer hours at average wages today than you could have 40 years ago. Those families that do have two incomes are generally just buying more stuff than they used to.
    Exactly. Average home size for instance is 2,700 sq. ft. compared to 1,400 sq. ft. in the 1970's.

    Where I live, there's a lot of 1000 sq. ft. homes built in the 40's that people in their 20's buy. As soon as they have 1 kid they move out to the McMansions.

    Like most problems, it's the culture that needs to change.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    The politicians and media worship at the altar of globalism and unbalanced trade deals that got us here.
    That's not what got us here.

    This is what got us here:



    Along with this:



    And this:



    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    Exactly. Average home size for instance is 2,700 sq. ft. compared to 1,400 sq. ft. in the 1970's.

    Where I live, there's a lot of 1000 sq. ft. homes built in the 40's that people in their 20's buy. As soon as they have 1 kid they move out to the McMansions.

    Like most problems, it's the culture that needs to change.
    Part of it may be cultural, but much is about cheap credit compliments of the Fed: savings discouraged in favor of debt-fueled consumption.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 05-05-2016 at 02:02 AM.

  13. #11
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-25-2018 at 02:45 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  14. #12
    The fact is, the mandatory government K-12 education doesn't qualify most students for anything--not even working at McDonald's. I see high numbers of students who can't even count money to buy a ticket to something, much less count change to give back to a customer. The computer gives them all the information they need, but they do not know what coins to use to make $.29. They have spent so many years in look-and-guess reading they can't read a sign telling them where their meeting will be held. Even left and right are challenges.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's not what got us here.
    That certainly plays a big part of it which if the jobs were still there the cost of living would be much higher. So they are getting a double whammy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    There was a time when a high school education enabled individuals to become worker drones in factories, where they'd work at the same job getting very modest pay increases for 40 years and then retire. Plain fact of the matter is that a high school education wasn't needed for most of those jobs; it was merely an arbitrary means of weeding out those who couldn't, or wouldn't, follow instructions. There were things associated with the American Dream that made jobs like that unattractive to manufacturers - things like minimum wages and overhead costs for workers (like paid vacation, paid sick leave, pension, pay increases for workers who had senority without without corresponding productivty gains). Manufactureres simply looked for effective means of production.
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    The fact is, the mandatory government K-12 education doesn't qualify most students for anything--not even working at McDonald's. I see high numbers of students who can't even count money to buy a ticket to something, much less count change to give back to a customer. The computer gives them all the information they need, but they do not know what coins to use to make $.29. They have spent so many years in look-and-guess reading they can't read a sign telling them where their meeting will be held. Even left and right are challenges.
    If you go back far enough, my Grand parents generation and their siblings that lived here did not need a high school education to survive. Albeit there were no child labor laws so many of them started at young age but they were able to build their own homes, have more than 6 kids and support their family on a laborer salary.

    It was the generation in the community after that had the good life with what voluntarist describes which disappeared dramatically by the 80s-90s free trade agreements.



    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    If you go back far enough, my Grand parents generation and their siblings that lived here did not need a high school education to survive.
    You don't need a high school education to survive today either.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    You don't need a high school education to survive today either.
    Are we going to be that literal that I should say without being homeless? You know what I mean, relative to your location in the US. For example it is doubtful you could get by without an education in NYC without some form of housing subsidy or assistance. That is unless you prefer to live on streets which is being made increasingly outlawed and difficult in NYC.
    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Are we going to be that literal that I should say without being homeless? You know what I mean, relative to your location in the US. For example it is doubtful you could get by without an education in NYC without some form of housing subsidy or assistance. That is unless you prefer to live on streets which is being made increasingly outlawed and difficult in NYC.
    Aside from the fact that various forms of assistance are widely available, NYC is an extreme example. Sure, many people can't afford to live there (regardless of having HS educations). But they can live other places in America, 99% of which are cheaper than NYC, without a HS education and without being homeless.



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  20. #17
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-25-2018 at 02:46 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    Besides, I really can't think of anything that K-12 did for me with respect to the machinist job I had in 1973 in any event.
    It probably did very little. And what little it accomplished could have been more effectively accomplished other ways. But from the perspective of the employer seeking to hire someone with little information about them, it told them some things of value, even if only that you could get up every morning and come to work. Having dropped out would have been a red flag that you would have needed to make up for by providing some other proof of diligence on your part.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    But I'm pretty sure that on average, you can buy more stuff by working fewer hours at average wages today than you could have 40 years ago.
    Well that's good to think that. A very positive, up-beat outlook on the world. And we could certainly say that in some senses it is true. Well, at least one sense I can think of: that there is new "stuff" now available today which could not be bought 40 years ago, due to technological changes.

    Unfortunately, in the core sense, the most (IMO) relevant sense, and the sense which your statement implies, what you are pretty sure of is not true. Or perhaps it is just barely true (+/- 10%). Real wages; that is, wages in real terms; that is, "how much stuff can you buy with your wages" -- real wages have stagnated in the US for the past 45 years or so. So in truth a laborer in the US can buy the identical amount of "stuff" today as 40 years ago (again, approximately, +/- maybe 10%).

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Well that's good to think that. A very positive, up-beat outlook on the world. And we could certainly say that in some senses it is true. Well, at least one sense I can think of: that there is new "stuff" now available today which could not be bought 40 years ago, due to technological changes.

    Unfortunately, in the core sense, the most (IMO) relevant sense, and the sense which your statement implies, what you are pretty sure of is not true. Or perhaps it is just barely true (+/- 10%). Real wages; that is, wages in real terms; that is, "how much stuff can you buy with your wages" -- real wages have stagnated in the US for the past 45 years or so. So in truth a laborer in the US can buy the identical amount of "stuff" today as 40 years ago (again, approximately, +/- maybe 10%).
    Barely true is still true. And effects of technological changes can't just be ignored.

  24. #21
    We may be able to buy more junk today but we can't save for the future as in the past anymore with worthless federal reserve notes.
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  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    We may be able to buy more junk today but we can't save for the future as in the past anymore with worthless federal reserve notes.
    I wouldn't say fewer hours buys more stuff. Everything costs more. The dollars I earn don't really buy much.
    #NashvilleStrong

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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I wouldn't say fewer hours buys more stuff. Everything costs more. The dollars I earn don't really buy much.
    Here's a good video that makes the case that fewer hours does buy more stuff.
    http://reason.com/reasontv/2008/02/03/living-large

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Here's a good video that makes the case that fewer hours does buy more stuff.
    http://reason.com/reasontv/2008/02/03/living-large
    In my line of work, carpentry/furniture building, there's well made stuff that cost and a plethora of cheaply made stuff that you can replace every few years.

    Not that long ago all furniture and woodwork was viewed as a multi-generational purchase, pieces were handed down from one generation to the next in effect saving lots of money over the life of the piece.

    Arguing that disposa-goods for less hours is a bargain is deceitful.....



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In my line of work, carpentry/furniture building, there's well made stuff that cost and a plethora of cheaply made stuff that you can replace every few years.

    Not that long ago all furniture and woodwork was viewed as a multi-generational purchase, pieces were handed down from one generation to the next in effect saving lots of money over the life of the piece.

    Arguing that disposa-goods for less hours is a bargain is deceitful.....
    That's a judgment that each individual consumer can only make for themselves. For example, if someone moves a lot, then they have not only the initial cost of that item, but the cost of repeatedly moving it. It may be cheaper, even over the long run, to buy cheaper furniture and replace it every time they move.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    The fact is, the mandatory government K-12 education doesn't qualify most students for anything--not even working at McDonald's. I see high numbers of students who can't even count money to buy a ticket to something, much less count change to give back to a customer. The computer gives them all the information they need, but they do not know what coins to use to make $.29. They have spent so many years in look-and-guess reading they can't read a sign telling them where their meeting will be held. Even left and right are challenges.
    We have got to get the federal government out of education and get it back to the state and local community level. Unless we can do this, I don't think we stand a chance of doing much of anything to right the country. In addition to dumbing them down, kids now are indoctrinated to the globalist agenda.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

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  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Bars might be too kind.
    Not if they are of iron and we are beating them therewith, vigorously.
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  32. #28
    Women are becoming the primary wage-earners in many households. This is due to the types of jobs that are generally held by women vs. men. Many jobs typically held by men have been under extreme pressure by labor pool expansion, i.e. outsourcing and importing cheap labor. This trend has not hit as hard (yet) in fields dominated by women (nursing is the big exception).

    Give it time, and we will have equal unemployment for all.
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  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That's a judgment that each individual consumer can only make for themselves. For example, if someone moves a lot, then they have not only the initial cost of that item, but the cost of repeatedly moving it. It may be cheaper, even over the long run, to buy cheaper furniture and replace it every time they move.
    A Nomadic lifestyle isn't how I was raised...

    This up-n-coming, unrooted batch of folks who switch jobs, homes and wives like underwear are a different breed.......

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In my line of work, carpentry/furniture building, there's well made stuff that cost and a plethora of cheaply made stuff that you can replace every few years.

    Not that long ago all furniture and woodwork was viewed as a multi-generational purchase, pieces were handed down from one generation to the next in effect saving lots of money over the life of the piece.

    Arguing that disposa-goods for less hours is a bargain is deceitful.....
    Best wedding present we got was a dining set made by the same shop in Lancaster Co PA where my parents bought their set in the early '60s. Theirs had been through a family of six, and grandkids, so when they offered to buy us one I jumped.... but IIRC the whole set, five windsor chairs, one windsor armchair, and an expanding table with six leaves (and room for more, the thing seriously goes from about 54" out to about 14 feet), all in cherry, cost around $1500 in 2000. Even then I knew we were basically robbing the place... I know for a fact the set will last at least 80 years, so the amortized cost of a real dining set is under $20 per year.

    IF you know where to go. I can't think of a shop that goes beyond 10 employees or so that can make furniture like this for that price.

    By the way, hat's off to you, tod... I entered the world of woodworking recently - hand tools only - and was surprised how much blood it generated. I did not actually think a planed hard maple corner could slice skin.


    Oh, yeah, here's the other thing to mention... if you get into historical reproductions at all, you get introduced to the concept pretty early on, that if you're looking for extant examples of, say, medieval six-board chests, everyone who studies this stuff knows that the examples we have today are not indicative of what John Everyman had in his cottage. You're going to find examples that are extensively carved or painted, which are festooned with iron hardware. The cheap crap got broken apart and burned, and the half dozen nails recycled, hundreds of years ago.

    That holds true of more recent furniture as well. The stuff you can buy on Craigslist from the 1940s for a couple hundred bucks is all the nicer furniture that was produced back then. They had crap too. But nobody thought it was worth keeping around for 70 years.

    Another example.... my house was built in 1950, and it's pretty apparent, as I'm working on it 3-10 times a month, that I'm the first owner in a long time, or ever, who is interested in doing things properly.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
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