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Thread: Tiny Nebraska Town Says No to 1,100 Jobs, Citing Way of Life

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    The solution is not zoning but court action.

    If some harm comes to me by your actions, I levy a claim upon you.
    Perhaps the locals know that big-ag has huge pockets and high-rises filled with liaryers and are just protecting their self-interest? As I said, you also have to factor in the infrastructure, school expansion, a surge of out-of-locality immigrants (double the local population) and expanding services to accommodate them all at local property owner expense. Increased truck traffic and all that will bring to the infrastructure. Chicken processing and coop smells.
    The people of the community simply do not want it. There will always be a community somewhere that will take Tyson. Just not theirs. And I agree with them. They all have a common stake in it.



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  3. #32
    Both sides have valid points here.

    I'm leaning towards presence's solution: buy the property back with a deed restriction.

    Local zoning efforts are usually much more likely to put the local business owner out of business or the small farmer out of work.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Perhaps the locals know
    []
    As I said, you also have to factor in the
    []
    and all that
    []
    smells
    it is only through preference demonstrated in action that we can gauge what actors really value, and that to try to deduce values from mathematical formulas, without the evidence of action, is a hopeless cause. When people demonstrate their preferences

    by exchanging

    we can say that both parties felt that they would be better off trading goods than not. Since Pigou's solution involves imposing taxes and subsidies by fiat, without voluntary exchange, the numbers arrived at are mere guesswork.
    https://mises.org/library/what-externality


    they all have a common stake in it
    then they should raise funds and offer the property to owner to sell the land or a covenant upon the land at profit

    without demonstrated voluntary economic human action, you're just a SJW flailing for entitlements


    Paul’s recommendation?


    “Try a true free market. Get rid of the notion that well-managed capitalism with the Federal Reserve as the central economic planner is achievable. Forget the notion that progressive taxation is how you create wealth and distribute it fairly to the middle class. And please recognize that ownership of property and ourselves is the most basic human right conceivable.”


    Rider said no issue will be off-limits at the new platform, from local zoning to global governance.

    []

    The site, Voices of Liberty, is part of “The Freedom Movement: To Unite and Strengthen the Voices of Liberty – Make Your Voice Truly Matter.”

    It asks Americans if they are tire of “unjustified wars, unconstitutional surveillance, extrajudicial drone assassinations, the continual weakening of the dollar, draconian drug laws, and the outright lies and deceptive doublespeak spouted by politicians with clandestine agendas.”


    If so, Voices of Liberty is where they need to go, according to Tiffany Rider, managing editor of the new expansion

    of the Ron Paul Channel.
    http://www.wnd.com/2014/07/ron-paul-...n-doublespeak/
    Last edited by presence; 05-02-2016 at 11:43 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    holy $#@! the facepalm is thick this morning
    Would you be against your neighbor building a nuclear power plant next to your house?
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    https://mises.org/library/what-externality




    then they should raise funds and offer the property to owner to sell the land or a covenant upon the land at profit

    without demonstrated voluntary economic human action, you're just a SJW flailing for entitlements
    This SJW meme is getting old.

    And tell me which property owner is it they need to pay off? It was a proposed plant. Nothing was bought or sold. "Regional economic development officials", read "tax-ticks", thought it'd be a swell idea. Until word got out. And people said "no thank you, we are doing fine here."

    Your simple solution is to let anyone do anything and if there is a problem take it to court. The problem is that court is not free. Rural individuals don't have the deep pockets or corporate liaryers that can keep this kind of litigation wrapped up for decades. Would you be willing to let my tire smoke drive you inside your house and ruin your property values for decades for your belief that eventually, someday, you might, maybe, win in court?
    Last edited by phill4paul; 05-02-2016 at 11:20 AM.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Both sides have valid points here.

    I'm leaning towards presence's solution: buy the property back with a deed restriction.

    Local zoning efforts are usually much more likely to put the local business owner out of business or the small farmer out of work.
    No property was bought or sold. Regional economic development tax-ticks thought it would be a swell idea for the community. The local community had a difference of opinion.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Both sides have valid points here.

    I'm leaning towards presence's solution: buy the property back with a deed restriction.

    Local zoning efforts are usually much more likely to put the local business owner out of business or the small farmer out of work.
    Never having seen the property in question.....................It could be a derelict piece of dirt in among profitable farms that members of the "Regional economic development group" bought in the hope of showing a profit off of by marketing it to big-ag....

    I haven't read where there's some local property owner who is out anything other than speculation in this thread..

    There might be some counties somewhere that don't restrict start-up businesses?

    I don't live in one, and I don't know that the county in question is one...

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Your simple solution is to let anyone do anything and if there is a problem take it to court. The problem is that court is not free. Rural individuals don't have the deep pockets or corporate liaryers that can keep this kind of litigation wrapped up for decades. Would you be willing to let my tire smoke drive you inside your house and ruin your property values for decades for your belief that eventually, someday, you might, maybe, win in court?
    If you have a legitimate case, with a likelihood to produce returns, you can generally contract with a lawyer pro bono provided you split proceeds.


    A Pennsylvania jury handed down a $4.24 million verdict in a lawsuit centering on water contamination from negligent shale gas drilling in Dimock, PA, a tiny town that made international headlines for its flammable and toxic drinking water.

    The defendant in the lawsuit, Cabot Oil and Gas Corp., had strenuously denied that it had caused any harm to the plaintiffs or their drinking water. In 2012, the company reached a settlement with roughly 40 other residents along Carter Road in Dimock, but the terms of that settlement were never made public and included a “non-disparagement” clause that prevents those who settled from speaking out about their experiences with Cabot.

    The verdict, which was reported by the Associated Press, comes as long-awaited vindication for the Hubert and Ely families, who refused to settle in part because they wanted their voices heard, they said at a press conference when the trial began in Scranton on February 22.

    The lawsuit stretched on for nearly seven years, and the plaintiffs were at one point forced to represent themselves in court after being unable to find legal counsel following the settlement of the vast majority of the plaintiffs.

    The Huberts and the Elys still live on Carter Road, hauling their water by truck – a chore that became far more cumberson in the winter when hoses often froze and water tanks must be heated, Scott Ely, a former Cabot subcontractor turned whistleblower, had testified.

    The jury directed Cabot to pay Nolen Scott Ely and Monica Marta-Ely each $1.3 million, and an additional $150,000 for their three children, and to pay Ray and Victoria Hubert each $720,000, plus an additional $50,000 for their child.

    Because the lawsuit's scope had been narrowed dramatically before trial, the plaintiffs were not permitted to pursue Cabot for any harms done to their health, but only for the damage to property and the personal nuisance that the water contamination had caused.
    http://www.desmogblog.com/2016/03/10...wsuit-reported

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Would you be against your neighbor building a nuclear power plant next to your house?
    Would you be against your neighbor building a nuclear power plant next to your house if they had a permit?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    If you have a legitimate case, with a likelihood to produce returns, you can generally contract with a lawyer pro bono provided you split proceeds.
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are lawsuits regarding processing plants that have been going on for decades. Liaryers generally don't like to wrap themselves up for that length of time on the possibility of winning.
    So, in the meantime, decades, you would be fine with letting me produce tire smoke that drives you inside your home and lowers your property value while raising your property taxes, you know, for the added infrastructure to bring me all these tires?

    I also noticed that you did not address the fact that no one had bought or sold their land as you originally speculated. It was simply a proposal by some tax-ticks to solve a problem the town didn't have.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 05-02-2016 at 12:00 PM.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Would you be against your neighbor building a nuclear power plant next to your house if they had a permit?
    Yes.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are lawsuits regarding processing plants that have been going on for decades. Liaryers generally don't like to wrap themselves up for that length of time on the possibility of winning.
    I'd posit if no lawyer was willing to contract to take the case on your claim of harm done on expected returns, then either you have no case or your willingness to split profits was too weak.

    I also noticed that you did not address the fact that no one had bought or sold their land as you originally speculated. It was simply a proposal by some tax-ticks to solve a problem the town didn't have.
    I'm confused. This was to be a government run meat processing plant?

    I was under the impression there was a company looking to purchase land from a farmer at considerable profit for the farmer, but under the terms of the contract the buyer was requesting clarification on zoning from the state; zoning and land use contingency.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I'd posit if no lawyer was willing to contract to take the case on your claim of harm done on expected returns, then either you have no case or your willingness to split profits was too weak.
    There is a reason these companies seek out relatively poor rural areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I was under the impression there was a company looking to purchase land from a farmer at considerable profit for the farmer, but under the terms of the contract the buyer was requesting clarification on zoning from the state; zoning and land use contingency.
    Then please cite. No where in that article did I see this mention. From my reading the Regional Development tax ticks were coming up with a plan and news of this plan leaked before any formalization. Residents got wind of it and moved to shut it down.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 05-02-2016 at 12:26 PM.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Yes.
    Well then you would be $#@! out of luck if they got that permit and odds are the permit would allow for various permitted externalities for which you would otherwise be able to sue and seek compensation.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Then please cite. No where in that article did I see this mention. From my reading the Regional Development tax ticks were coming up with a plan and news of this plan leaked before any formalization. Residents got wind of it and moved to shut it down.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-co...-idUSKCN0XF23K


    Costco plans chicken plant in Nebraska
    []
    Costco chose Dodge County, in eastern Nebraska, as a "preferred site" for the plant because of the area's quality workforce, available land, farmers willing to raise chickens and proximity to suppliers, among other factors, the Greater Fremont Development Council said.
    Last edited by presence; 05-02-2016 at 12:32 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  19. #46
    Key word: "Plans." Nowhere in that article does it show that property had already been purchased.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I guess I do not get it . Town of 400 with no unemployed , just exactly where did the company intend to get employees ?
    Mexico

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I guess I do not get it . Town of 400 with no unemployed , just exactly where did the company intend to get employees ?
    Exactly.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Key word: "Plans." Nowhere in that article does it show that property had already been purchased.
    Well certainly I'm not going to finalize; close purchase land from someone if I know there may be some government edict telling me I can't use it.

    Its the same with any other contingency contract.... I'll buy this contingent on you getting the subsurface oil tank removed, etc.

    Costco wants the land. Costco wants to process chickens. Farmer wants to sell land for cash.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Perhaps the locals know that big-ag has huge pockets and high-rises filled with liaryers and are just protecting their self-interest? As I said, you also have to factor in the infrastructure, school expansion, a surge of out-of-locality immigrants (double the local population) and expanding services to accommodate them all at local property owner expense. Increased truck traffic and all that will bring to the infrastructure. Chicken processing and coop smells.
    The people of the community simply do not want it. There will always be a community somewhere that will take Tyson. Just not theirs. And I agree with them. They all have a common stake in it.
    There are certainly arguments to be made from both sides, and this is where anarchists / libertarians / con-conservatives split ways. I believe, as Ron Paul does, that the right to create zoning laws is constitutionally delegated to the states, and by extension to the local municipalities.

    Pragmatically speaking, if you live in an area where there are no zoning laws and you try to build a casino next to an elementary school, the town is going to band together and create zoning laws. That's just life.

    Philosophically, I am probably opposed to it. Pragmatically, I am not going to protest on behalf of the casino because I don't want the casino there, even if I believe they have some deep philosophical right.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Well certainly I'm not going to finalize; close purchase land from someone if I know there may be some government edict telling me I can't use it.

    Its the same with any other contingency contract.... I'll buy this contingent on you getting the subsurface oil tank removed, etc.

    Costco wants the land. Costco wants to process chickens. Farmer wants to sell land for cash.
    Which ones? Because I didn't see any farmers in the community offering opposition so they could cash out. Seems like the entire community was on on board and the entire board of directors, their representatives, conducted themselves as their community asked.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I guess I do not get it . Town of 400 with no unemployed , just exactly where did the company intend to get employees ?
    There are 37,000 that live in the county and 13% are qualified as impoverished.

    http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/31053

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Well certainly I'm not going to finalize; close purchase land from someone if I know there may be some government edict telling me I can't use it.

    Its the same with any other contingency contract.... I'll buy this contingent on you getting the subsurface oil tank removed, etc.

    Costco wants the land. Costco wants to process chickens. Farmer wants to sell land for cash.
    What restrictions are in place on your land?

    I got several pages worth on rural Ozark land that I bought 15 years ago....Before that I owned land in two different towns that had even more restrictions that were conveyed from one buyer to the next....This process runs back several decades here in the sticks...

    If land sales are different elsewhere I'm interested in learning.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Which ones? Because I didn't see any farmers in the community offering opposition so they could cash out. Seems like the entire community was on on board and the entire board of directors, their representatives, conducted themselves as their community asked.
    Well obviously someone owns the land that Costco is looking to acquire for a chicken processing plant in Nebraska.

    That person... farmer, investor... whatever he is is being robbed of the value of his property because his buyer is being bullied by zoning and the violent arm of its enforcer.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    What restrictions are in place on your land?

    I got several pages worth on rural Ozark land that I bought 15 years ago....Before that I owned land in two different towns that had even more restrictions that were conveyed from one buyer to the next....This process runs back several decades here in the sticks...

    If land sales are different elsewhere I'm interested in learning.
    There are many restrictions on my land...

    some of which previous owners agreed to:

    I have a contracted easement for a power line that crosses my land.

    some of which previous owners never agreed to:

    I have tens of millions of dollars of natural gas under my land that I'm not "zoned" to touch.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #56
    "Being a Christian, I don't want Somalis in here,"
    Does not compute.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Would you be against your neighbor building a nuclear power plant next to your house?
    There's a way to avoid that possibility. Buy that land. Then you get to decide what happens on it.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Well obviously someone owns the land that Costco is looking to acquire for a chicken processing plant in Nebraska.

    That person... farmer, investor... whatever he is is being robbed of the value of his property because his buyer is being bullied by zoning and the violent arm of its enforcer.
    Who? As I've said I have not heard of any that speak in favor Costco. Is it township property that Costco was looking to buy? If so the community certainly has a say in that.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Well obviously someone owns the land that Costco is looking to acquire for a chicken processing plant in Nebraska.

    That person... farmer, investor... whatever he is is being robbed of the value of his property because his buyer is being bullied by zoning and the violent arm of its enforcer.
    I need proof that there weren't sales clauses in the deed when the land last changed hands that the board of aldermen had to review and approve new business start-ups before I'll buy into anybody being "hurt" let alone "robbed"...

    There's not many people who will buy land, or banks that will finance it, unless such stipulations are spelled out explicitly in the contract for deed....

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    There's a way to avoid that possibility. Buy that land. Then you get to decide what happens on it.
    I'd say billionaires, corporations and government are going to trump you every time in this endeavor.

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