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Thread: Where will the "Free Market" be when Robots Take over?

  1. #61
    A lot of work being done now in Decentralized Blockchain Orgs, from that, you can have autonomous corporations and even governments:

    Discussion

    by VITALIK BUTERIN:

    "In the developed world, the hope is that there will be a massive reduction in the cost of setting up a new business, organization or partnership, and a tool for creating organizations that are much more difficult to corrupt. Much of the time, organizations are bound by rules which are really little more than gentlemen’s agreements in practice, and once some of the organization’s members gain a certain measure of power they gain the ability to twist every interpretation in their favor.

    Up until now, the only partial solution was codifying certain rules into contracts and laws – a solution which has its strengths, but which also has its weaknesses, as laws are numerous and very complicated to navigate without the help of a (often very expensive) professional. With DAOs, there is now also another alternative: making an organization whose organizational bylaws are 100% crystal clear, embedded in mathematical code. Of course, there are many things with definitions that are simply too fuzzy to be mathematically defined; in those cases, we will still need some arbitrators, but their role will be reduced to a limited commodity-like function circumscribed by the contract, rather than having potentially full control over everything.

    In the developing world, however, things will be much more drastic. The developed world has access to a legal system that is at times semi-corrupt, but whose main problems are otherwise simply that it’s too biased toward lawyers and too outdated, bureaucratic and inefficient. The developing world, on the other hand, is plagues by legal systems that are fully corrupt at best, and actively conspiring to pillage their subjects at worst. There, nearly all businesses are gentleman’s agreements, and opportunities for people to betray each other exist at every step. The mathematically encoded organizational bylaws that DAOs can have are not just an alternative; they may potentially be the first legal system that people have that is actually there to help them. Arbitrators can build up their reputations online, as can organizations themselves. Ultimately, perhaps on-blockchain voting, like that being pioneered by BitCongress, may even form a basis for new experimental governments. If Africa can leapfrog straight from word of mouth communications to mobile phones, why not go from tribal legal systems with the interference of local governments straight to DAOs?

    Many will of course be concerned that having uncontrollable entities moving money around is dangerous, as there are considerable possibilities for criminal activity with these kinds of powers. To that, however, one can make two simple rebuttals. First, although these decentralized autonomous organizations will be impossible to shut down, they will certainly be very easy to monitor and track every step of the way. It will be possible to detect when one of these entities makes a transaction, it will be easy to see what its balance and relationships are, and it will be possible to glean a lot of information about its organizational structure if voting is done on the blockchain. Much like Bitcoin, DAOs are likely far too transparent to be practical for much of the underworld; as FINCEN director Jennifer Shasky Calvery has recently said, “cash is probably still the best medium for laundering money”. Second, ultimately DAOs cannot do anything normal organizations cannot do; all they are is a set of voting rules for a group of humans or other human-controlled agents to manage ownership of digital assets. Even if a DAO cannot be shut down, its members certainly can be just as if they were running a plain old normal organization offline."
    http://p2pfoundation.net/Decentraliz...s_Organization


    Decentralized Government Agencies (DGA) and the Blockchain

    One potential application of this idea is the extension of the concept to government; what I call decentralized, autonomous, governmental agencies (DAGAs). In this model, relationships between agency employees, agency mangement, decision makers, other agencies, stakeholders, customers, contractors, and citizens could all be regulated and managed via smart contracts.

    Many of these contracts would have the force of law. Others would be formal operating agreements (e.g., internal operating procedures, processes, guidelines, etc.). Every interaction would be stored as a transaction on a public blockchain. Smart contracts could be organized to provide differing levels of access depending on a role-based authority system.

    As with DAOs, DAGAs would be highly efficient and provide substantial transparency and accountability. Each and every governmental transaction (i.e., an exchange of money, data, property, or access/use rights) would be logged and would be potentially accountable. In an era where trust in government has declined, the blockchain might be the mechanism that restores public faith in government.
    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/gover...art-tori-adams
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    Serious question:
    Where will the "Free Market" be when Robots Take over?
    Where the $#@! is it now?
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  4. #63
    This video has been a subject of a RPFs thread.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...rything-Better
    Danke should have informed you of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    Serious question:

    What happens to all of the low-skilled humans (and high skilled)?

    F***ing software bots..

    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Son_of_Liberty90 View Post
    Then why warn others when it's inevitable?
    Thanks for admitting your denialism. This is typical of libertarians and idealists, warn others of something inevitable/unavoidable is to allow people to adapt.

    Are you going to pretend you'll never die or never run out of money just because it's "inevitable"? No, you prepare for it.

    This is why libertarians and conservatives are so in denial about climate change, even if nothing can be done to counteract it, it's nice to know and prepare.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Oh wow, I hesitate to post in this thread, but I must...



    When people bring up this topic, I always think of the bank teller from when I was younger. For you youngsters, we used to have to go to the bank, wait in line, and have a person hand us cash which we would use to buy things. Then ATM's came along and the workforce of tellers quickly diminished. But everyone saved time that they used in other places. This is what robots do for us. They increase our wealth.

    Yes, some segments will suffer, but because our wants are unlimited, there will always be new ways to provide value to your fellow man. And that, in essence, is what a job does. I know it's tempting to believe that humans will stop wanting things when robots are fulfilling our needs, but that's not the case. We'll just want new things that we didn't even know we wanted before.

    In other words, economic efficiency will benefit us. The problem, in my mind, is not the technology, but the government controls placed on the technology.
    Yes, market efficiency is good, yes, technology is good. But don't mistake that as "technology will not cause unemployment". It will, and it's good.

  8. #66
    It's only worth it to have mass produced goods if you actually have masses that can pay for them.

    I don't know what will happen but people will have incomes somehow, people will have goods. Things will work. As long as we have a free market.
    "I am a bird"

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Oh wow, I hesitate to post in this thread, but I must...



    When people bring up this topic, I always think of the bank teller from when I was younger. For you youngsters, we used to have to go to the bank, wait in line, and have a person hand us cash which we would use to buy things. Then ATM's came along and the workforce of tellers quickly diminished. But everyone saved time that they used in other places. This is what robots do for us. They increase our wealth.

    Yes, some segments will suffer, but because our wants are unlimited, there will always be new ways to provide value to your fellow man. And that, in essence, is what a job does. I know it's tempting to believe that humans will stop wanting things when robots are fulfilling our needs, but that's not the case. We'll just want new things that we didn't even know we wanted before.

    In other words, economic efficiency will benefit us. The problem, in my mind, is not the technology, but the government controls placed on the technology.

    Government "controls" placed on the market by paying people to not work in the private sector are of much greater concern than any controls placed on technological advancement....

    Heck, without government paid bureaucrats and their enforcers there would be no controls on technology in the first place...

  10. #68
    The future of the, smarter than all of mankind combined, supercomputers will unanimously decree the obvious economic truth.

    The "free market" is the best form of economy for mankind.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    The future of the, smarter than all of mankind combined, supercomputers will unanimously decree the obvious economic truth.

    The "free market" is the best form of economy for mankind.
    "the highest intelligence cannot be the humblest slave"

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    "the highest intelligence cannot be the humblest slave"
    God would probably buy into that.

  13. #71
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-25-2018 at 02:42 PM.

  14. #72
    Everywhere? Innovation comes into being when people don't have to work or starve and can afford to do something other than farm. When ore and more robots free humans to work, more creation will be the result.



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  16. #73
    I see this argument a lot, and it could have been made a century ago. There are some fields that will wind up being fully automated. There are new fields that don't even exist yet. Machines need to be created, programmed, assembled, audited, shipped, serviced, and so on. Then there are the fields where it's been promised that automation will take over for many, many years, but it doesn't quite cut it. I've run through a dozen different versions of proofreading software, and none of them are worth a damn. They're certainly not worth the expense and hassle of switching over entire processes to make use of them.

    Then there's the paperless society and electronic medical records. If our records are electronic, why does it take the same amount of staff to shepherd them through the process? Electronic records must be audited, maintained, corrected, and so on, and certain aspects are still kept on paper as "wet signature" documents. That last part is being phased out, but in order to do so, each clinician has to be issued a tablet to use out in the field so that they can obtain electronic signatures. Someone has to maintain those machines, which will see a LOT of wear and tear.

    There will be a reduction in employment (maybe) but there's nearly always a shift to new opportunities. Whether those opportunities are generated close enough for the unemployed to take advantage of them is another matter.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    I see this argument a lot, and it could have been made a century ago. There are some fields that will wind up being fully automated. There are new fields that don't even exist yet. Machines need to be created, programmed, assembled, audited, shipped, serviced, and so on. Then there are the fields where it's been promised that automation will take over for many, many years, but it doesn't quite cut it. I've run through a dozen different versions of proofreading software, and none of them are worth a damn. They're certainly not worth the expense and hassle of switching over entire processes to make use of them.

    Then there's the paperless society and electronic medical records. If our records are electronic, why does it take the same amount of staff to shepherd them through the process? Electronic records must be audited, maintained, corrected, and so on, and certain aspects are still kept on paper as "wet signature" documents. That last part is being phased out, but in order to do so, each clinician has to be issued a tablet to use out in the field so that they can obtain electronic signatures. Someone has to maintain those machines, which will see a LOT of wear and tear.

    There will be a reduction in employment (maybe) but there's nearly always a shift to new opportunities. Whether those opportunities are generated close enough for the unemployed to take advantage of them is another matter.
    http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of...rating-returns

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    There will be a reduction in employment (maybe) but there's nearly always a shift to new opportunities. Whether those opportunities are generated close enough for the unemployed to take advantage of them is another matter.
    That's the point, the new opportunities will likely require new skills, so the people who didn't learn new skills (like the farmers and pony express) will be unemployed and unprofitable until they adapt.

    Yes, there will be people needed to maintain the new systems, but far less than the people it replaced.

    "If our records are electronic, why does it take the same amount of staff to shepherd them through the process?"
    It may, but you ignore the people who are still unemployed by digitizing, the storage, the labor to move the papers around, the people's time saved when transfering them through fax and email....some reductions aren't so obvious.

  19. #76
    What happens to all of the low-skilled humans?
    They'll doing other jobs, making more money.

    What happened to the ditch diggers when powered excavation equipment was invented?

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    They'll doing other jobs, making more money.

    What happened to the ditch diggers when powered excavation equipment was invented?
    they'll need to learn new skills.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    they'll need to learn new skills.
    Well of course.

    But this always happening in any economy.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    That's the point, the new opportunities will likely require new skills, so the people who didn't learn new skills (like the farmers and pony express) will be unemployed and unprofitable until they adapt.

    Yes, there will be people needed to maintain the new systems, but far less than the people it replaced.

    "If our records are electronic, why does it take the same amount of staff to shepherd them through the process?"
    It may, but you ignore the people who are still unemployed by digitizing, the storage, the labor to move the papers around, the people's time saved when transfering them through fax and email....some reductions aren't so obvious.
    You haven't worked in an office that's gone "paperless" I guess. Those people who used to move the papers around, still do. Instead of putting them into folders, they shove them into scanners. Those same employees --- plus extra ones --- are in charge of taking those documents that have already been scanned and putting them into boxes to store, because paper records are seldom destroyed once they're generated. Then they catalogue them in case the company gets audited. They also compare the scans to the paper documents. They run retrieval drills to see how quickly they can retrieve a given file to find a document. They respond to requests from law offices for medical records, which are always requests for paper records, and involve making photocopies or printing out the records and putting them in the mail. So really there's no giant miraculous shift there; it's a slight shift and fully within the wheelhouse of the person who was working exclusively with paper files before.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    You haven't worked in an office that's gone "paperless" I guess. Those people who used to move the papers around, still do. Instead of putting them into folders, they shove them into scanners. Those same employees --- plus extra ones --- are in charge of taking those documents that have already been scanned and putting them into boxes to store, because paper records are seldom destroyed once they're generated. Then they catalogue them in case the company gets audited. They also compare the scans to the paper documents. They run retrieval drills to see how quickly they can retrieve a given file to find a document. They respond to requests from law offices for medical records, which are always requests for paper records, and involve making photocopies or printing out the records and putting them in the mail. So really there's no giant miraculous shift there; it's a slight shift and fully within the wheelhouse of the person who was working exclusively with paper files before.
    if that's the case, then yes, I question the benefit of it "going paperless". I've seen many businesses big and small which saved money by reducing paper usage, but if they had to print it out and move it around, and the same total number of people are employed, then I'd not care for it. That means they didn't automate enough of it to save money.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Well of course.

    But this always happening in any economy.
    People die, therefore we shouldn't worry about people dying?

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    People die, therefore we shouldn't worry about people dying?
    So, in order to prevent people from learning new skills, you would do what?

    Have the state ban all technological improvements?

    But that wouldn't be enough, of course, since sectoral shifts wrought by changing consumer preferences also require workers to retrain.

    So, have the state fix the structure of production as it is: keep producing exactly the quantity and quality of goods being produced now, forever?

    This would mean socialism, obviously, with the state directly managing all production.

    ....or, we could allow the market economy to function, making us all vastly richer, and deal with the necessity of retraining.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    ....or, we could allow the market economy to function, making us all vastly richer, and deal with the necessity of retraining.
    necessity of training assumes there's a necessity of jobs.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    necessity of training assumes there's a necessity of jobs.
    I don't know what that means...

  29. #85
    its called Utopia lol
    Carthago Delenda Est

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I don't know what that means...
    you say "deal with necessity of training for new jobs" which makes no sense unless you assume people need jobs. I get it, you're brainwashed to believe jobs are a necessity because nothing is free and if you dare to live without working, you're a freeloading leech.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    you say "deal with necessity of training for new jobs" which makes no sense unless you assume people need jobs. I get it, you're brainwashed to believe jobs are a necessity because nothing is free and if you dare to live without working, you're a freeloading leech.
    I give precisely zero $#@!s whether anyone has a job or not.

    As long as they aren't suckling at the taxpayer's tit I don't care what they do.

  32. #88
    Robots will make the free market even better, as they will likely have access to more complete and accurate buyer and seller information.



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  34. #89
    We're a creative species. There will always be progress.

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