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Thread: Tax Expert Says Employers Withholding Federal Income Tax is Illegal. Here’s Why.

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The 16th was needed because the Supreme Court ruled in 1895 that a tax on investment income was a direct tax that had to be apportioned in order to be constitutional. But the Court went out of its way to limit its holding to taxes on investment income and in dicta recognized the validity of an unapportioned tax on wages.
    NEGATIVE, not a an unapportioned tax on wages, but an unapportioned tax on income FROM wages. Similarly, as the issue before the court was not a tax upon the investment, but UPON the income ascending the investment. Ergo, the financial CORPUS versus its GAIN, PROFIT or INCOME.
    Last edited by Weston White; 06-15-2016 at 11:16 PM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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  3. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Yes, but a tax on wages isn't a direct tax.
    Yes it is, it found within the definition of what a personal tax or capitation tax is.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  4. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Interestingly, I have no issue with what you posted about the 16th Amendment. But then you spoiled everything by claiming the income tax is a privilege tax, which is demonstrably false -- e.g., income from illegal activities is taxable; when did Congress begin granting privileges to engage in criminal activity?
    See this is your malfunction, you continuously fail to grasp that at its core an income tax is a tax upon the privilege of acquiring wealth beyond your invested capital. Congress, is not excusing crimes as a privilege per se, but still to benefit from criminality is a privilege (afforded by the Fifth Amend.) and those benefits may be taxed.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  5. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    My puzzlement dealt with how that passage is consistent with the notion that taxation is theft under God's law. If taxation were always theft under any conceivable circumstances it would have been pointless for Paul to use taxation as an example of when it would be appropriate to obey the authorities.
    Taxation of one's capital, and direct taxation is theft. Your puzzlement solved by "The Law", read also John Locke's works:

    But yet he may live and enjoy, by seizing and appropriating the productions of the faculties of his fellow men. This is the origin of plunder.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  6. #245
    The issue is direct v. indirect. Direct taxation is a control mechanism. It is enforced only with violence, fear and coercion.

  7. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Taxation of one's capital, and direct taxation is theft. Your puzzlement solved by "The Law", read also John Locke's works:
    You read them, especially this:

    140. It is true governments cannot be supported without great charge, and it is fit every one who enjoys his share of the protection should pay out of his estate his proportion for the maintenance of it. But still it must be with his own consent- i.e., the consent of the majority, giving it either by themselves or their representatives chosen by them...
    And you still haven't a clue.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  8. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts
    And you still haven't a clue.
    Do you have a clue?

    The problem with citing that passage is that no one owns their "estate" under the current (corporate) admiralty law system. The bankers hold your estate in trust (as trustee) and you are merely a beneficiary of your own estate. You, however, do not own nor control your estate (bankers hold the title), therefore you can not pay out of your own estate. Only the trustee can pay out of an estate. So in (legal) reality, if the bankers forwarded a portion of your estate, which they hold in trust, to the corporate government to cover your "share" of the protection, that would meet the passage you cited. Forcing you to give up the fruit of your labor to cover your "share", while the bankers STILL hold your estate, sounds a bit like fraud to me.
    Last edited by devil21; 06-25-2016 at 12:28 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  9. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    And you still haven't a clue.
    When in the hell was the last time there was any serious debate one way or the other on the subject of federal income taxes? I know I was not around to provide my input during the 1900's and neither in the 1940's, were you?
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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  11. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Your signature is hopelessly wrong and misleading. I've already pointed out that income from illegal activities is taxable, yet you and the other Hendrickson lemmings have yet to show what privilege is involved in such cases. You have also failed to produce a single case in which someone has avoided taxation because his income was earned in private, non-privileged activity. This isn't surprising, since there aren't any. In fact, everyone who has made this lame argument in court has lost. And it's not because "the courts are corrupt" -- that is the last pathetic excuse tax protesters like you come up with when all of their crackpot legal arguments have been rejected for the intellectual swill that they are. No, they are rejected because they are wrong as a matter of law.

    A statist is one who believes that everything the State does is OK. I do not. Your use of the term to smear anyone who dares expose the idiotic misrepresentations of the law peddled by Hendrickson, Schiff, and other charlatans simply demonstrates that you can't defend your position on legal grounds.

    Incidentally, I've also pointed out that your reference to Federalist 15 has nothing to do with current law. The quote was a criticism of the taxing system under the Articles of Confederation, which was an utter failure.
    So what is your argument on what they can and cannot tax? I pay "wages" to a person in Pakastan to write code for me in FRNs.

    Is that person liable to pay the IRS income taxes, why or why not?
    Last edited by Danke; 07-06-2016 at 01:05 AM.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  12. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Do you have a clue?

    The problem with citing that passage is that no one owns their "estate" under the current (corporate) admiralty law system. The bankers hold your estate in trust (as trustee) and you are merely a beneficiary of your own estate. You, however, do not own nor control your estate (bankers hold the title), therefore you can not pay out of your own estate. Only the trustee can pay out of an estate. So in (legal) reality, if the bankers forwarded a portion of your estate, which they hold in trust, to the corporate government to cover your "share" of the protection, that would meet the passage you cited. Forcing you to give up the fruit of your labor to cover your "share", while the bankers STILL hold your estate, sounds a bit like fraud to me.
    Ya, "Corporate" law is a fraud, "criminal" law is a fraud, "civil" law is a fraud... Now you're getting it. It's ALL fraud. TPTB don't give a DAMN about any "law". Those are only written so that the little people will think these goons have "proper authority" to rape and plunder them...

    The only "law" is the law of the jungle and it's clear that's what rules in seats of goonerment!
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  13. #251
    Regardless, the IRS will shut your business down if you don't withhold and pay them...not to mention fine you.

  14. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    So what is your argument on what they can and cannot tax? I pay "wages" to a person in Pakastan to write code for me in FRNs.

    Is that person liable to pay the IRS income taxes, why or why not?
    The fact that you pay him in FRN's is irrelevant. Whether a payment constitutes gross income isn't dependent on the medium of payment.

    Under IRC §872, the gross income of a nonresident alien includes only (a) income derived from U.S. sources and that isn't effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business within the U.S., or (b) income that's effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business within the U.S.

    (a) is ruled out because the guy isn't working in the U.S., and therefore under §862 his compensation isn't U.S.-sourced income. Similarly, (b) doesn't apply because §864(b)(4) says that income that isn't U.S.-sourced is effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business within the U.S. only in certain circumstances, none of which involves compensation for services. So no, the guy isn't liable for U.S. income tax on what you pay him.
    Last edited by Sonny Tufts; 07-06-2016 at 12:49 PM.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  15. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlybee View Post
    Regardless, the IRS will shut your business down if you don't withhold and pay them...not to mention fine you.
    Bingo! Even though they do not have the authority. And the fines accrue interest daily.
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    "I am convinced that there are more threats to American liberty within the 10 mile radius of my office on Capitol Hill than there are on the rest of the globe." -- Ron Paul

  16. #254
    Well to answer my own question, being that Mr. Genius avoided it. The answer is NEVER; although there was to be a joint hearing back in 2001/2002 involving Bob Shultz, Congressman Bartlett, and We The People Foundation, but everybody got cold feet and cancelled the hearing--the DOJ and IRS having crystalized that they do NOT answer to WE THE PEOPLE: http://www.givemeliberty.org/spotlig...e/Archive1.htm

    ETA:

    http://www.givemeliberty.org/feature...es01-29-02.pdf
    Last edited by Weston White; 07-06-2016 at 09:29 PM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  17. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The fact that you pay him in FRN's is irrelevant. Whether a payment constitutes gross income isn't dependent on the medium of payment.

    Under IRC §872, the gross income of a nonresident alien includes only (a) income derived from U.S. sources and that isn't effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business within the U.S., or (b) income that's effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business within the U.S.

    (a) is ruled out because the guy isn't working in the U.S., and therefore under §862 his compensation isn't U.S.-sourced income. Similarly, (b) doesn't apply because §864(b)(4) says that income that isn't U.S.-sourced is effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business within the U.S. only in certain circumstances, none of which involves compensation for services. So no, the guy isn't liable for U.S. income tax on what you pay him.
    "U.S." Another can of worms.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  18. #256
    bump for a fun thread.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  20. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    bump for a fun thread.
    There really isn't anything fun about being extorted for huge sums of money at the point of a gun...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  21. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    There really isn't anything fun about being extorted for huge sums of money at the point of a gun...
    It was fun to write and share important info on.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

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