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Thread: The LP can't win any elections, how can they expect to win the Presidency?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ Liberty View Post
    I think the only ones "pretending to want liberty" are the ones campaigning for Donald Trump on a Ron/Rand Paul forum, while actively opposing real liberty candidates.
    What liberty candidates?



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ Liberty View Post
    I think the only ones "pretending to want liberty" are the ones campaigning for Donald Trump on a Ron/Rand Paul forum, while actively opposing real liberty candidates.
    And that is Gary Johnson?

    I don't like Garry Johnson. I would help Mcafee. But I don't think voting is a solution - it's an education tool, but ultimately, the entire idea of a state is wrong and voting just a way to make it seem ok to an individual who doesn't think about it.

    Johnson doesn't further the idea of liberty at all. He campaigns on the idea of getting federal matching dollars for crying out loud. A big step backwards that damns the souls of men who believe it.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritOf1776_J4 View Post
    It's lack of official threads that is doing us in.

    The LP should get an official thread. That has been their first mistake.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  6. #34
    The Bostonians Paying the Excise-Man, 1774 British propaganda print that depicts the tarring and feathering of Boston Commissioner of Customs John Malcolm.



    Don't support it. Just pointing out the colonists viewed what was useable in defence of their liberty a lot differently then modern society. They gained their liberty, we are losing ours. It has to do with something right here - about what they were taught as to when it is appropriate to use force, and what pc think we are taught.

    It's our culture that has been damned when the right to self defence is eliminated so completely - and that is a lot more then just guns and never talked about effectively.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    The LP should get an official thread. That has been their first mistake.
    No argument there - or even a sub forum. An 'official' one.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    And neither has the Constitution, Green, or other modern third parties (with the exception of Sanders, a Socialist) gotten people elected to senior office. Neither the LP nor the other alternatives are so uniformly incompetent as to fail electorally across all campaigns, all states and regions, and across several decades straight. Nor is the issue a nationwide lack of interest in liberty, given the verifiable excitement generated by Ron Paul's two runs. Where are the gerrymandered Libertarian districts, designed to favor LP candidates? If LP contenders couldn't win them, that would isolate the issue to candidate or party incompetence. The reason they don't win them is because, of course, there are no such gerrymandered districts.

    In other words, the factor that more satisfactorily explains the lack of election wins is an elite-rigged election system that neutralizes alternatives both outside and inside the major party structures. I've discussed this 'establishment regime' many times over the years, long before rank and file voters of both parties exploded in open opposition to the kingmaker insiders during this cycle. "The establishment" I speak of consists of the elite special interests (and media or party leadership vassals) who control both parties, and represent the MIC, banksters, AIPAC, Big Biz, etc. Their money and influence explains why nobody with principles, or even different loyalties, wins elections.

    Until pro-liberty folks scuttle or counter that establishment racket, and stop dumping on each other, we'll keep getting beaten, both in third party runs, or in Republican primary races where the liberty candidate fails to win any primaries. For the same reason, it will continue be fair to point out that the elected candidates in the GOP aren't winning anything either, legislatively, to permanently reverse or repeal any aspect of the growth of the modern state, and haven't for 80+ years. If the LP can't win elections, "conservatives" in the GOP have been unable to win any legislative battle, to remove a single major program.
    Excellent points. I'd only add that third parties can't get traction for a whole lot of other reasons than just gerrymandering; economic factors, historical precedence, active sabotage, law suits, and even death threats have led to the rigged two-party system's history of wins. But everyone knows this; Thoughtomator is just playing dumb.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritOf1776_J4 View Post
    It took time to have the American revolution, by men willing to take the next steps.

    Some of the founder's protests, like tarring and feathering people, would cause a lot of the effeminate flops on Ron Paul forums to pass out in fear.
    You can't even defend yourself according to their thinking. Hell, you can't even TOUCH someone accidentally, maybe, according to them. And I
    do mean ron paul forums. Michelle Fields is a former member of Ron Paul forums.

    Donald Trump is good for America for A LOT of reasons.

    He might not be the next step, but he surely furthers it along. And getting rid of pc correctness and ideas that ruin action is a good thing.
    "It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." - Mark Twain.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ Liberty View Post
    No one believes the LP will win this election. The goal should be 5%, which is achievable, given polls for Johnson at 11%, and the huge swaths of people who refuse to vote for either current frontrunner of both parties. At 5%, the LP would qualify for federal matching funding of up to $30,000,000.00, which would give the LP a major profile boost, and raise awareness of the party, as well as potentially help raise funds for local LP candidates.
    Wait, you are saying that the LP should abandon principle and take taxpayer money?
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    In other words, the factor that more satisfactorily explains the lack of election wins is an elite-rigged election system that neutralizes alternatives both outside and inside the major party structures.
    Very true... as I have pointed out both internal and external factors make it impossible for the LP to be viable in any capacity.




    Quote Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom View Post
    Until pro-liberty folks scuttle or counter that establishment racket, and stop dumping on each other, we'll keep getting beaten, both in third party runs, or in Republican primary races where the liberty candidate fails to win any primaries. For the same reason, it will continue be fair to point out that the elected candidates in the GOP aren't winning anything either, legislatively, to permanently reverse or repeal any aspect of the growth of the modern state, and haven't for 80+ years. If the LP can't win elections, "conservatives" in the GOP have been unable to win any legislative battle, to remove a single major program.
    Incorrect... how many states now have Constitutional Carry?
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Wait, you are saying that the LP should abandon principle and take taxpayer money?
    The sound of whore away is coming through the window like bombs away - loud and clear.

    I'm outta there.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    LP demographics closely match Dungeons & Dragons player demographics, and with good reason - in both cases there is nothing more significant going on than make-believe roleplay.
    Yeah, this makes perfect sense.
    We already totally write off the black community, despite the fact that they've almost to a man been railroaded by the system their whole lives.
    We already totally write off the tin-foil hat wearers, despite the fact that they're already on board with the idea that the system is evil.
    We already totally write off the Bernie fans, despite the fact that they're already convinced the system is broken.

    Let's alienate a bunch of nerds who have spent their lives escaping into a fantasy world for no other reason than that they've been shoved to society's margins.

    You guys all made it perfectly clear that winning is more important than anything, starting in June 2012. I'm still not sure where Matt got off coming here and stabbing Rand in the back when the thing Matt explicitly wanted him to do didn't work out.

    Just do us all a favor already and go get behind Trump. He's the clear winner here. That's what's important - more important by far than building coalitions with people who might have a reservation or two with getting behind the objective winner. There's obviously no way that pissing off potential allies of an alternate approach can go wrong.

    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  15. #42
    The Libertarian Party is useless and will fade away.
    When the Constitution Party and Green Party get on the ballot in all 50 states,
    they will grow, but LP will die, because LP stands for nothing at all.

  16. #43
    @Matt Collins

    clear some space in your inbox please

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Just do us all a favor already and go get behind Trump. He's the clear winner here. That's what's important - more important by far than building coalitions with people who might have a reservation or two with getting behind the objective winner. There's obviously no way that pissing off potential allies of an alternate approach can go wrong.
    It's impossible to get behind Trump, he hasn't been nominated yet.

    But it's obvious a bunch of us think that not hindering Trump attacking the establishing, supporting a LP candidate like McAfee some, and not voting - yet again - actually makes a lot more sense then

    Attacking the right to defend yourself - or even ToUching someone else - horrors
    Supporting a communist
    Being against indirect taxes
    Sucking up to federal matching funds - by a libertarian candidate - initating force from the outset.
    Thinking Ayn Rand stuff is for capitalist pigs and billionaires, etc etc etc

    Under the muster of attack Trump at any costs, I've seen endless amounts of non-libertarian ideas supported.
    And thus, Trump is exposing the non-libertarian among us.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritOf1776_J4 View Post
    Attacking the right to defend yourself - or even ToUching someone else - horrors
    Supporting a communist
    Being against indirect taxes
    Sucking up to federal matching funds - by a libertarian candidate - initating force from the outset.
    Thinking Ayn Rand stuff is for capitalist pigs and billionaires, etc etc etc

    Under the muster of attack Trump at any costs, I've seen endless amounts of non-libertarian ideas supported.
    And thus, Trump is exposing the non-libertarian among us.
    +rep for a multi-pronged attack.
    I'm not arguing in favor of Johnson. I think "Johnson" is the most appropriate name for that leftist retard.
    But that's not what the thread is about. The thread is about abandoning the idea of supporting the LP before support has even started.

    The LP has more of a chance right now of being a haven for the remnants of the Revolution than anywhere else. The Republican party takeover failed, and you can lay the blame for that right at the feet of everyone who thought Rand was going to sleeper-agent his way to the top and actively discouraged all the actual takeover efforts that were going on four years ago.

    The LP can be taken over in an identical manner. If that star is rising right now, it makes zero sense to ignore it.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritOf1776_J4 View Post

    Under the muster of attack Trump at any costs, I've seen endless amounts of non-libertarian ideas supported.
    And thus, Trump is exposing the non-libertarian among us.
    Worth repeating. It has been revealed that many of the most frequent posters on RPF are not libertarians at all, but play-pretend anarchists who turn into full-on totalitarians where the rubber meets the road.

    To see people here engaging with glee and enthusiasm in the same dirty tactics that were used against Ron Paul in 2012 has been eye-opening.

    If you want to advance the cause of liberty, you'll have to do it elsewhere, because they are going to make damn sure anything you propose or attempt to do through this site is buried in fallacies, naysaying, negativity, utopian nonsense, and propaganda.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Worth repeating. It has been revealed that many of the most frequent posters on RPF are not libertarians at all, but play-pretend anarchists who turn into full-on totalitarians where the rubber meets the road.

    To see people here engaging with glee and enthusiasm in the same dirty tactics that were used against Ron Paul in 2012 has been eye-opening.

    If you want to advance the cause of liberty, you'll have to do it elsewhere, because they are going to make damn sure anything you propose or attempt to do through this site is buried in fallacies, naysaying, negativity, utopian nonsense, and propaganda.
    Q: What is the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist?

    A: Twenty years.


    Statement of Purpose: Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society. We reject electoral politics, in theory and in practice, as incompatible with libertarian principles. Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power, and political methods invariably strengthen that legitimacy. Voluntaryists seek instead to delegitimize the State through education, and we advocate withdrawal of the cooperation and tacit consent on which State power ultimately depends.

    http://voluntaryist.com/
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 04-04-2016 at 10:32 AM.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Q: What is the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist?

    A: Twenty years.
    Agreed. Anarchism seems good when you're 12 years old, but when you grow up and understand human nature, you come to understand what a horrible idea it is.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    +rep for a multi-pronged attack.
    I'm not arguing in favor of Johnson. I think "Johnson" is the most appropriate name for that leftist retard.
    But that's not what the thread is about. The thread is about abandoning the idea of supporting the LP before support has even started.

    The LP has more of a chance right now of being a haven for the remnants of the Revolution than anywhere else. The Republican party takeover failed, and you can lay the blame for that right at the feet of everyone who thought Rand was going to sleeper-agent his way to the top and actively discouraged all the actual takeover efforts that were going on four years ago.

    The LP can be taken over in an identical manner. If that star is rising right now, it makes zero sense to ignore it.
    Ok, I agree with that. By all means start official LP threads. create an LP subforum. In fact, I think we may have not supported a LP strategy under the guise of taking over the GOP with Ron Paul, and that even made sense with Rand Paul in the race, but when we don't have a dog in the race - a lot of us are, or have been LP members.

    By all means let's support the LP insofar as we can - although I am not supporting Johnson personally, I don't mind supporting the LP generally. taking - or seeping - into a major party is a good idea still (we had some success) - but right now we're doing nothing but bickering among ourselves (or becoming a recruiting ground for a communist). We can always go back to working on the gop next election - can do both.
    Last edited by SpiritOf1776_J4; 04-04-2016 at 10:35 AM.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Agreed. Anarchism seems good when you're 12 years old, but when you grow up and understand human nature, you come to understand what a horrible idea it is.
    Jesus Is an Anarchist (pdf)

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Whee a call to authority based on a religious doctrine I don't follow... I'm so convinced I can't stand it!

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post

    Incorrect... how many states now have Constitutional Carry?
    Emphasis on states, as in people-centered movements and initiatives got the carry provisions passed. The local GOP went along, because gun rights are about the only issue they can't finesse. And note Constitutional carry didn't repeal a major government program, which was the point being discussed.

    The special interest bought-and-paid-for pols at the national level have not done any repealing, with the sole exception of occasionally denying renewals. The assault-weapons ban, and Section 215 of the Patriot act went away only because they had a sunset provision. GOP pols would have never gotten around to directly repealing either if they had to formally do so.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...rty-solutions/

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Whee a call to authority based on a religious doctrine I don't follow... I'm so convinced I can't stand it!
    Keep on pushing your phony made up BS, then just check back here again, in about 20 years.

    No authority call just information for those who might give a crap and can also read.

  28. #54
    "If just one-tenth of the population strongly believed that government was itself the greatest moral evil and that there was a better alternative it would be enough to turn the tide."

    I don't think you can fully understand Revelation without understanding state government is evil.

    Make no mistake a great deal of it is about the lamb of God on mount sion - but part of the kingdom of the anti-christ that is at war with Him is state government. And the concept of government is supported by false religious ideas, whether explicitly, like the holy roman empire was, or implicitly.
    Last edited by SpiritOf1776_J4; 04-04-2016 at 11:12 AM.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Agreed. Anarchism seems good when you're 12 years old, but when you grow up and understand human nature, you come to understand what a horrible idea it is.
    - Rep!

  30. #56
    the LP is purely an educational vessel



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  32. #57
    This is what I've been saying when we are bickering among ourselves, are not espousing libertarian principles (for the record, I've been an anarcho capitalist supporter and Christian since I was a teen ager, but probably only recently reconciled them fully or perhaps deeply is the word), and that a critical juncture is coming up and we needed to prepare:

    You may wonder where I got the one-tenth figure from in the above if all governments
    require the acceptance of their rule by the majority of their population. Again,
    the reason is because this acceptance doesn’t have to be active support but merely
    resigned, as it usually is. If just one-tenth of the population strongly believed that
    government was itself the greatest moral evil and that there was a better alternative
    it would be enough to turn the tide
    . Since most people are followers and uncritically
    accept the reigning political opinions, those who do not accept the status quo and
    who are able to form and articulate a critical alternative will come to be the intellectual
    leaders by default when the popular regime suffers a crisis and people begin to
    look for alternatives. If the history of governments teach us anything it is that such
    crisis is a regular occurrence, for governments by their nature tend toward instability.
    If it be asked Why then do we still have government?, it is here answered that it is
    because no viable alternative to government has been articulated by a critical mass
    at such a crisis,
    in that most people throughout history have accepted the deception
    that government is a necessary evil and could not conceive a better alternative.
    The critical junction is fast appearing. The *only* way we are going to have a voice is unite so people can find us. I suggest the LP - which at least gives us a vehicle to educate.

    (well, Christian since seven. But both as a teen).
    Last edited by SpiritOf1776_J4; 04-04-2016 at 11:15 AM.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    the LP is purely an educational vessel
    But in this election - because it is a crisis in both parties (and many other things), education has more power.

    Read Jesus is an Anarchist with me. It seems pretty good so far!

  34. #59
    A "first past the poll" (winner takes everything) system will over time create a two party system.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins
    how can they expect to win the Presidency?
    They don't.

    The goal is to raise the party and ideology's profile with an historic performance (which would be anything over 1%).

    For hardcore LP supporters, this is intended to improve the odds of LP candidates winning elections in the future.

    For libertarian GOPers such as myself, the purpose is rather to increase the odds of libertarians winning GOP primaries.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

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