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Thread: Obstacles to Clear Thinking About 'the Economy'

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    Obstacles to Clear Thinking About 'the Economy'

    ....this is one of the best 'political forums' i've found...some great people here...

    ....if ever there was a place i might find some insight about 'my problem' it is here...

    ....fellow monetary realist(s), have any of you ever found any successful teaching/communication techniques regarding the subject of 'monetary reality'?...

    ...it has been my experience that THE VAST MAJORITY of people i encounter are ignorant of even the basics of 'money'...the origin, nature, etc. of money (i always approach people 'one on one'..privately..people will often let their guards down and will reveal their ignorance and hallucinations in a private intimate conversation...whereas, ime, people tend to 'clam-up' in 'public'...

    ...so i'm with my new neighbor recently...nice guy...i knew he was 'political' because he brought up the ($)election...(he likes kasich!!) and so i pull my '$tandard $piel' on him: "how come when the republicrats talk about 'the 20 gazillion$ of national debt' they never mention the HUGE portion of that 'debt' owed to bankster$ who acquired their bonds through their fraudulent 'privilege' of 'fractional reserve banking'? (aka 'deposit creation', etc.)

    ...i could tell immediately by the way he furrowed his brow he was clueles$...(btw, if any of you out there are furrowing your brow, you are most likely clueless too...)

    ....so, fellow monetary realists, (the few, the proud) what words/concepts have you used with success? ...please share any ideas...because i have come to the absolute conclusion that talking about 'economics' with republicans, democrats, keynesians, austrian schoolers, etc. theorists galore, is a waste of my time and energy....the worst ones, imo, are 'the glenn beck austrians'...these goddamned fools are always yammering about 'big bad government'...never acknowledging that the creation and issuance of 'money' is LARGELY PRIVATELY CONTROLLED...'the government' doesn't print/create our money like these pitiful republicrat ignoramuses hallucinate...virtually every notion they have about 'money' is clouded with ignorance...fifth grade level ignorance...

    ....help..



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  3. #2
    "how come when the republicrats talk about 'the 20 gazillion$ of national debt' they never mention the HUGE portion of that 'debt' owed to bankster$ who acquired their bonds through their fraudulent 'privilege' of 'fractional reserve banking'? (aka 'deposit creation', etc.)
    You would probably be shocked to learn how little of the US debt is actually held by US banks. Would you believe $515 billion or about three percent (4.2% if you include insurance companies $293 billion)? (Figures as of February 29, 2016):

    http://useconomy.about.com/od/moneta...ional-Debt.htm

    Intragovernmental Holdings -

    Nearly 30%
    of the Federal debt is owed to 230 other Federal agencies. Why would the government owe money to itself? Some agencies, like the Social Security Trust Fund, take in more revenue from taxes than they need right now. Rather than stick this cash under a giant mattress, they buy U.S. Treasuries with it.

    By owning Treasuries, they transfer their excess cash to the general fund, where it is spent. Of course, one day they will redeem their Treasury notes for cash. The Federal government will either need to raise taxes or issue more debt, to give the agencies the money they will need.

    Which agencies own the most Treasuries? Social Security, by a long shot. Here's the detailed breakdown (as of December 31, 2015):

    Social Security (Social Security Trust Fund and Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund) - $2.786 trillion
    Office of Personnel Management Retirement - $873 billion
    Military Retirement Fund - $601 billion
    Medicare (Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund, Federal Supplementary Medical Insurance Trust Fund) - $267 billion
    All Other Retirement Funds - $187 billion
    Cash on Hand to Fund Federal Government Operations - $508 billion.

    (Source: Treasury Bulletin, Monthly Treasury Statement, Table 6. Schedule D-Investments of Federal Government Accounts in Federal Securities, December 2015)

    Debt Held by the Public -

    Foreign governments and investors hold nearly half of the nation's public debt. One-fourth is held by other governmental entities, like the Federal Reserve, and state and local governments. Fifteen percent is held by mutual funds, private pension funds, savings bonds or individual Treasury notes. The rest is owned by businesses, like banks and insurance companies, and an assortment of trusts, companies, and investors. Here's the breakout:

    Foreign - $6.175 trillion
    Federal Reserve - $2.461 trillion
    Mutual Funds - $1.056 trillion
    State and Local Government, including their pension funds - $803 billion
    Private Pension Funds - $403 billion
    Banks - $515 billion
    Insurance Companies - $293 billion
    U.S. Savings Bonds - $174 billion
    Other (individuals, government-sponsored enterprises, brokers and dealers, bank personal trusts and estates, corporate and non-corporate businesses, and other investors) - $1.198 trillion.

    (Sources: Federal Reserve, Factors Affecting Reserve Balance, February 3, 2016. Treasury Bulletin, Ownership of Federal Securities, Table OFS-2, as of June 2015)

    But how do those banks privately create money? Can they loan out as much money as they want to- regardless of how much money they hold in deposits? Or are they constrained by that "reserve requirement" which says loans can't exceed a certain portion of their deposits? (having a "reserve requirement" is what makes them "fractional reserve" banks- they have to keep a fraction of deposits on reserve).



    http://www.marketminder.com/a/fisher...dd33e8731.aspx
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-21-2016 at 07:34 PM.

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    zippy: You would probably be shocked to learn how little of the US debt is actually held by US banks.


    (...i suspect ---if the numbers you provide are 'valid'...BIG IF---that the fraudulent bankster acquisition of bond$ i asserted is hidden in several of those 'categorie$'...)

    zippy: "But how do those banks privately create money?...."

    (...i thought you were hip...my bad... )

    http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/monetizethis.php

    "...For the government, the difference between borrowing credit created with accounting entries from a private bank and borrowing the same sort of credit from the Federal Reserve is that borrowing from the Fed is nearly interest-free. That is true today, but it has not always been true. Congressman Wright Patman, Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee, wrote in a 1964 treatise called A Primer on Money:
    “The Federal Reserve Banks create money out of thin air to buy Government Bonds from the U.S. Treasury . . . [creating] out of nothing a . . . debt which the American people are obliged to pay with interest.”
    Patman was outraged at the inequity of this practice and boldly agitated for Congress to nationalize the privately-owned Federal Reserve, a move that would have allowed the government to issue the national money supply directly. Needless to say, however, this proposal met with strong opposition. Nationalization did not happen, but the Fed did have to compromise. According to Jerry Voorhis:
    “As a direct result of logical and relentless agitation by members of Congress, led by Congressman Wright Patman as well as by other competent monetary experts, the Federal Reserve began to pay to the U.S. Treasury a considerable part of its earnings from interest on government securities. This was done without public notice and few people, even today, know that it is being done. It was done, quite obviously, as acknowledgment that the Federal Reserve Banks were acting on the one hand as a national bank of issue, creating the nation’s money, but on the other hand charging the nation interest on its own credit – which no true national bank of issue could conceivably, or with any show of justice, dare to do.”
    Voorhis went on, “But this is only part of the story. And the less discouraging part, at that. For where the commercial banks are concerned, there is no such repayment of the people’s money.” Commercial banks, he explained, do not rebate the interest, although they also “‘buy’ the bonds with newly created demand deposit entries on their books – nothing more.”6
    Voorhis noted that the Constitution provides, “Congress shall have the power to coin money [and] regulate the value thereof.” Whether “to coin money” means “to issue money” has been debated; but as President Andrew Jackson observed, if anyone was given the power to issue money, it was Congress, not a private banking elite. For a full century before the American Revolution, the colonists funded a period of unprecedented prosperity and productive enterprise with paper money issued directly by their own local governments or government-owned banks. According to Benjamin Franklin, it was chiefly to get that power back after King George halted the practice that the colonists fought the Revolution.7 They won the war but lost the money-creating power to a private banking cartel...

    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-22-2016 at 11:25 AM.

  5. #4
    what words/concepts have you used with success?
    its anecdotal... but if you can get people to just own a few bitcoin, a few silver rounds, and a gold backed debit card....

    something remarkable happens, it all just starts to unfold like a beautiful flower

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #5
    ...For the government, the difference between borrowing credit created with accounting entries from a private bank and borrowing the same sort of credit from the Federal Reserve is that borrowing from the Fed is nearly interest-free.
    Surely banks would be taking major advantage of borrowing from the Fed at practically zero interest and loaning that money out to customers- pocketing the difference in the interest rates.

    https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BORROW

    Total Borrowings of Depository Institutions from the Federal Reserve

    2016-02: $0.034 Billions of Dollars

    That is, member banks have a total of $34 million borrowed from the Federal Reserve. Million- not even billion.


    as acknowledgment that the Federal Reserve Banks were acting on the one hand as a national bank of issue, creating the nation’s money, but on the other hand charging the nation interest on its own credit
    The Fed does not really charge the Government interest- in fact, it makes a net contribution to the US government. Yes, all treasury bond holders are paid interest on those bonds including the Fed- but the Fed turns over all of their profits (after costs) to the US Treasury at the end of the year. This year, that came to $97.7 billion. http://www.wsj.com/articles/fed-sent...015-1452531787 That means that it is true that it is cheaper if the Fed owns more of their debt than other investors (who don't pay that interest back).

    The Fed holds about 12% of US government debt.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-22-2016 at 01:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    its anecdotal... but if you can get people to just own a few bitcoin, a few silver rounds, and a gold backed debit card....

    something remarkable happens, it all just starts to unfold like a beautiful flower


    ...i 'own' bitcoin, silver and something better than your 'gold backed debit card' (under control of and administered by republicrats galore) ...

    ...i also understand that, for one of many example$, if i (or someone else in my behalf) don't cough up some $5000 'federal reserve notes'/year to the various 'tax collector$,' i will surely be homeless absent [effectively] wheels...

    ...and maybe then i'd understand i really never did 'own' my house..etc..the bankster$ (about whom ALL these republicrats are truly $ilent)...they 'own' it all... ...yup...

    ...so i'd have to strongly disagree....if/when the fog lifts, a hideou$ reality clearly unfolds in the mind's eye...it is a rotting corp$e...(maybe some hideous gmo 'frankenflower'...certainly no cherry/plum blossom)...

    ....and ZIPPY, help me out here...before we proceed into chapter 66....let's go back to chapter 1:....'look me in the eye' and tell me you understand that the vast majority of 'the money'/'dollars' we ALL use is/are created by PRIVATE 'commercial' banks/bankers...(you know the one$...last i heard they were telling us there are about 15,000 of 'them'--'banks of issue'--$cattered across the land) not 'THE FED'...as you (incompletely) use the term...

    ...it seems to me we must share a 'comm'on understanding of concepts/terms before we can truly 'comm'unicate...and it's been my experience that the vast majority of people have some false, vague notion that 'government' 'prints' our 'money/dollars'......et tu, zippy?...say it ain't so...
    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-23-2016 at 10:11 AM.

  8. #7
    .i 'own' bitcoin, silver and something better than your 'gold backed debit card'
    see



    you're one of those beautiful flowers I was talking about


    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  9. #8
    ....and ZIPPY, help me out here...before we proceed into chapter 66....let's go back to chapter 1:....'look me in the eye' and tell me you understand that the vast majority of 'the money'/'dollars' we ALL use is/are created by PRIVATE 'commercial' banks/bankers...(you know the one$...last i heard they were telling us there are about 15,000 of 'them'--'banks of issue'--$cattered across the land) not 'THE FED'...as you (incompletely) use the term...
    Let me ask again - how do these private banks "create" money?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Let me ask again - how do these private banks "create" money?
    There are many ways.

    One is "liquidity swaps" and "currency swaps" made by the FED to foreign CBs. When Grayson asked The Bernank which banks received specifically $600 billion in loans generated from the swaps, The Bernank answered "I don't know".

    Regardless, that money was created out of thin air in the form of a loan by the FED through the ECB to unknown banks which loaned the money to whomever at whatever interest rates, requiring more money be created in the form of loans to repay the first loans plus interest.

    These swaps, another name for loans, are done through all of the Rothschild owned central banks.

    According to the only audit ever done of FED transactions, we're talking 16 trillions in loans over a 6 year period.

    What Hank is talking about is reserve banking 101:

    My bank has 1 billion dollars in depositor cash. They lend me 900 million dollars which I ask be directly deposited into my demand account. The bank now shows 1.9 billion dollars in depositor cash.

    Where did the 900 million come from?

  12. #10
    The Fed $16 trillion in loans comes from a CBO audit of their actions during the financial crisis. During that time, the Fed did make loans to banks. One day loans. If they were kept more than one day, they counted as an additional loan- even if the amount borrowed remained the exact same. If a bank took out $1 million and kept it for one month, the total loan was counted as $30 million instead of $1 million they actually borrowed- thus highly inflating the figure. The most they actually had out was $1.2 trillion- not $16 trillion.



    Swaps are trades- like dollars for Euros. A European bank needing dollars will swap an equal value of euros to get dollars. The Fed keeps the Euros until the bank can buy them back. That does not "create" money.

    https://www.federalreserve.gov/monet...idityswaps.htm

    In general, these swaps involve two transactions. When a foreign central bank draws on its swap line with the Federal Reserve, the foreign central bank sells a specified amount of its currency to the Federal Reserve in exchange for dollars at the prevailing market exchange rate. The Federal Reserve holds the foreign currency in an account at the foreign central bank. The dollars that the Federal Reserve provides are deposited in an account that the foreign central bank maintains at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. At the same time, the Federal Reserve and the foreign central bank enter into a binding agreement for a second transaction that obligates the foreign central bank to buy back its currency on a specified future date at the same exchange rate. The second transaction unwinds the first. At the conclusion of the second transaction, the foreign central bank pays interest, at a market-based rate, to the Federal Reserve. Dollar liquidity swaps have maturities ranging from overnight to three months.

    When the foreign central bank loans the dollars it obtains by drawing on its swap line to institutions in its jurisdiction, the dollars are transferred from the foreign central bank's account at the Federal Reserve to the account of the bank that the borrowing institution uses to clear its dollar transactions. The foreign central bank remains obligated to return the dollars to the Federal Reserve under the terms of the agreement, and the Federal Reserve is not a counterparty to the loan extended by the foreign central bank. The foreign central bank bears the credit risk associated with the loans it makes to institutions in its jurisdiction.

    The foreign currency that the Federal Reserve acquires is an asset on the Federal Reserve's balance sheet. Because the swap is unwound at the same exchange rate that is used in the initial draw, the dollar value of the asset is not affected by changes in the market exchange rate. The dollar funds deposited in the accounts that foreign central banks maintains at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York are a Federal Reserve liability.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-23-2016 at 07:40 PM.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bossobass View Post
    There are many ways.

    One is "liquidity swaps" and "currency swaps" made by the FED to foreign CBs. When Grayson asked The Bernank which banks received specifically $600 billion in loans generated from the swaps, The Bernank answered "I don't know".

    Regardless, that money was created out of thin air in the form of a loan by the FED through the ECB to unknown banks which loaned the money to whomever at whatever interest rates, requiring more money be created in the form of loans to repay the first loans plus interest.

    These swaps, another name for loans, are done through all of the Rothschild owned central banks.

    According to the only audit ever done of FED transactions, we're talking 16 trillions in loans over a 6 year period.

    What Hank is talking about is reserve banking 101:

    My bank has 1 billion dollars in depositor cash. They lend me 900 million dollars which I ask be directly deposited into my demand account. The bank now shows 1.9 billion dollars in depositor cash.

    Where did the 900 million come from?
    ...good post!...

    ...zippy, i hope this helps...and don't feel bad...it's been my experience that some 99%+ of people are WORSE THAN merely ignorant (what they 'know' is false) when it comes to even the basics of 'money'/'dollars'...and that includes EVERY POLITICIAN...EVERY STINKING ONE OF THEM.....

    http://www.rpoth.at/docs/modern_money_mechanics_us.html

    Who Creates Money?
    Changes in the quantity of money may originate with actions of the Federal Reserve System (the central bank), depository institutions (principally commercial banks), or the public. The major control, however, rests with the central bank.
    The actual process of money creation takes place primarily in banks.(1) As noted earlier, checkable liabilities of banks are money. These liabilities are customers' accounts. They increase when customers deposit currency and checks and when the proceeds of loans made by the banks are credited to borrowers' accounts.
    In the absence of legal reserve requirements, banks can build up deposits by increasing loans and investments so long as they keep enough currency on hand to redeem whatever amounts the holders of deposits want to convert into currency. This unique attribute of the banking business was discovered many centuries ago.
    It started with goldsmiths. As early bankers, they initially provided safekeeping services, making a profit from vault storage fees for gold and coins deposited with them. People would redeem their "deposit receipts" whenever they needed gold or coins to purchase something, and physically take the gold or coins to the seller who, in turn, would deposit them for safekeeping, often with the same banker. Everyone soon found that it was a lot easier simply to use the deposit receipts directly as a means of payment. These receipts, which became known as notes, were acceptable as money since whoever held them could go to the banker and exchange them for metallic money.
    Then, bankers discovered that they could make loans merely by giving their promises to pay, or bank notes, to borrowers. In this way, banks began to create money. More notes could be issued than the gold and coin on hand because only a portion of the notes outstanding would be presented for payment at any one time. Enough metallic money had to be kept on hand, of course, to redeem whatever volume of notes was presented for payment.
    Transaction deposits are the modern counterpart of bank notes. It was a small step from printing notes to making book entries crediting deposits of borrowers, which the borrowers in turn could "spend" by writing checks, thereby "printing" their own money..."


    ...

    • The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it.


    • The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled.


    • The modern banking system manufactures “money” out of nothing; and the process is, perhaps, the most, astounding piece of “sleight of hand” that was ever invented. In fact, it was not invented. It merely “grew”. … Banks in fact are able to create (and cancel) modern “deposit money”, just as much as they were originally able to create, or call in, their own original forms of private notes. They can, in fact, inflate and deflate, i.e., mint, and un-mint the modern “ledger-entry” currency.
      • Angas, Major L. L. B. (Lawrence Lee Bazley) (1937). Slump ahead in bonds. Somerset Pub. Co.. pp. 20-21. OCLC 3506072.


    • The actual process of money creation takes place in commercial banks. As noted earlier, demand liabilities of commercial banks are money. … Confidence in these forms of money also seems to be tied in some way to the fact that assets exist on the books of the government and the banks equal to the amount of money outstanding, even though most of the assets themselves are no more than pieces of paper...
      • Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago; Nichols, Dorothy M (1961). Modern Money Mechanics; a workbook on deposits, currency and bank reserves.. p. 3. OCLC 510802.The 1992 revision of this booklet is available on wikisource


    • Commercial banks create checkbook money whenever they grant a loan, simply by adding new deposit dollars in accounts on their books in exchange for a borrower's IOU.


    • The 12 regional reserve banks aren't government institutions, but corporations nominally 'owned' by member commercial banks.

    .





    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-24-2016 at 09:08 AM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by H. E. Panqui View Post
    ....this is one of the best 'political forums' i've found...some great people here...

    ....if ever there was a place i might find some insight about 'my problem' it is here...

    ....fellow monetary realist(s), have any of you ever found any successful teaching/communication techniques regarding the subject of 'monetary reality'?...

    ...it has been my experience that THE VAST MAJORITY of people i encounter are ignorant of even the basics of 'money'...the origin, nature, etc. of money (i always approach people 'one on one'..privately..people will often let their guards down and will reveal their ignorance and hallucinations in a private intimate conversation...whereas, ime, people tend to 'clam-up' in 'public'...

    ...so i'm with my new neighbor recently...nice guy...i knew he was 'political' because he brought up the ($)election...(he likes kasich!!) and so i pull my '$tandard $piel' on him: "how come when the republicrats talk about 'the 20 gazillion$ of national debt' they never mention the HUGE portion of that 'debt' owed to bankster$ who acquired their bonds through their fraudulent 'privilege' of 'fractional reserve banking'? (aka 'deposit creation', etc.)

    ...i could tell immediately by the way he furrowed his brow he was clueles$...(btw, if any of you out there are furrowing your brow, you are most likely clueless too...)

    ....so, fellow monetary realists, (the few, the proud) what words/concepts have you used with success? ...please share any ideas...because i have come to the absolute conclusion that talking about 'economics' with republicans, democrats, keynesians, austrian schoolers, etc. theorists galore, is a waste of my time and energy....the worst ones, imo, are 'the glenn beck austrians'...these goddamned fools are always yammering about 'big bad government'...never acknowledging that the creation and issuance of 'money' is LARGELY PRIVATELY CONTROLLED...'the government' doesn't print/create our money like these pitiful republicrat ignoramuses hallucinate...virtually every notion they have about 'money' is clouded with ignorance...fifth grade level ignorance...

    ....help..
    Start with the definition of "money". Without that, you have no basis for communicating the ideas. So start with the properties of money, durable, divisible, fungible, and... oh bollocks... You get my meaning.

    Then ask whether a dollar is money. Given the definition, they hopefully have the intellectual hp to dope it out. If not, ask simple questions a la Socrates such that he leads himself to the correct answer.

    Then make the distinction between money and mere currency.

    If you can get people on board to that point, methinks the rest will be far easier.

    One more thing, and I have found this endlessly valuable: even if they get aboard to the point mentioned above, they may still start up with the "buts". Point out to them that their objections are the product of holding two or more mutually exclusive desires. "I agree that taxation is robbery, but... but... ROADS... SCHOOLS... the CHILDREN!!" If you want to be free, there are costs and risks to be borne. If you are not willing to bear the costs, risks, and responsibilities of the free man, then you do not want to be free. You want that which has never been and can never be: something for nothing. Universe does not work that way. If the individual with whom you are having the exchange possesses the least nominal intelligence and personal integrity, they will cede the point and at least be willing to give the idea its due turn. If they do not, you are probably jousting with a case of hopeless corruption.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  15. #13
    Start in their pocketbook.

    If the money is sound, your salary is stable. If inflation makes the dollar worth less every single day, then every day that you don't get a raise you do take a pay cut.

    Get that across, and they're on board. If they're capable of understanding more, they'll seek that knowledge out. If not, they're still on board.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I think what the newcomer to this discussion has the most trouble understanding is the dollar is not a dollar--it's a nickel.

    What do I mean? Well, my old man got out of the Army Air Corps after WWII and got himself a good job paying a dollar an hour. How is that a good job? Easy--it was 1946 and the dollar was still a dollar. As in, when he wanted a Pepsi he paid a nickel for it--now it costs a dollar. When he wanted to ride a bus, he put seven cents in the meter, or a nickel and a half--now it costs a buck and a half. When he wanted to sit down and have a cup of regular old coffee, he paid a dime, or two nickels--now it costs two bucks. When he put gas in the car (it was always cheap in Oklahoma), he paid 14.9 cents per gallon, or three nickles--now it costs three bucks. When he was hungry for lunch, he bought a deluxe double hamburger with all the trimmings for a silver quarter, or five nickles--now it costs five bucks. When he wanted to go to a movie, he paid thirty-five cents or seven nickles--now it costs seven bucks. And when he shopped for a new top of the line Dodge Custom with heater and radio and other options, it would set him back two grand, or forty thousand nickles--now it costs forty thousand dollars.

    The Pepsi isn't any wetter, the gas doesn't burn any brighter, the double burger isn't any more filling, and the movie doesn't last any longer today (with no newsreel, serial and cartoon, it actually doesn't last as long). So, there's only one explanation. The dollar is no longer worth a dollar. The dollar is worth a nickel. Period.

    Why do you think all the five and ten cent stores have been replaced with dollar stores?
    The biggest obstacle we face is people have been brainwashed into believing monetary policy actually means something. Money is the most convenient way to barter. It saves you trouble--it allows the butcher to buy from the baker, and the baker to buy from the candlestick maker, and the candlestick maker to get some meat, without the trouble of setting up a three-way barter. The butcher spends money at the bakery, the baker spends that money buying candles, and the candlestick maker doesn't have to wait until the butcher needs candles to buy his steak. Anything else is just a game rich men use to cheat you.

    Recessions and depressions have only gotten longer and deeper since we went to funny money. That is a fact.

    The more complex you make it, the more you reinforce the lie that we need rubber money so smart people can prevent catastrophes. When the dollar loses buying power, you take a pay cut. It really is just that simple.

    And yes, of course your boss will tell you any lie just to keep you taking pay cuts.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 03-24-2016 at 10:37 AM.

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    osan writes: "Start with the definition of "money". Without that, you have no basis for communicating the ideas. So start with the properties of money, durable, divisible, fungible, and... oh bollocks... You get my meaning.

    Then ask whether a dollar is money. Given the definition, they hopefully have the intellectual hp to dope it out. If not, ask simple questions a la Socrates such that he leads himself to the correct answer.

    Then make the distinction between money and mere currency."



    ...i'm not sure the term 'money' has been defined in law..' what we were to use 'as money' is defined...and ignored...who is to issue it is defined...and ignored.....etc...

    ...i would state to you that i believe 'dollars' are 'money' (de facto) because 'dollars' are 'a readily accepted tool used to facilitate transactions involving virtually all goods, services and all other assets...it's hideous and corrupted...but it's 'money'..that's what we all call it, right?..

    ...as to the distinction between 'money and mere currency' it seems arcane...pointless...i want to go to a red sox game..the ticket-guy gives me a ticket for 'money' or 'mere currency'...the butcher gives me meat for money or mere currency...the tax collector allows me stay in my(their) home if i give him 'money or mere currency'...etc. ad nau$eam..

    ...again, most all people i meet are fundamentally ignorant of even the basic origin and nature of 'money'...even people who have developed some understandings of sophisticated economic constructs/theories...it's been my experience many/most people falsely believe 'the government' 'prints the money'...someone's had to work very effectively to inculcate this kind of hideous 'retarding' ignorance..(an ignorance from which 'the bank$ter class' profits hand$omely)...

    http://home.earthlink.net/~cadman777...ll-Jenkins.htm

    THINK
    PLACE YOURSELF IN THE POSITION OF BEING ABLE TO CREATE MONEY; EVERYONE MUST ACCEPT IT (YOUR LEGAL TENDER ACT); NO ONE REALLY UNDERSTANDS 'WHAT' YOU HAVE "GOING" FOR YOU (ITS YOUR SECRET); ALL THE 'MONEY' IN THE WORLD IS YOURS TO CREATE ('MONEY' IS OF NO OBJECT TO YOU); UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS:

    • What function of Government could not be corrupted, by you?
    • What business could not be destroyed, by you?
    • What manner of injustice could not be inflicted on anyone, by you?
    • What truth could not be suppressed, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its price suppressed, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its price supported, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its supply decreased, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its supply increased, by you?
    • What information media policy could not be directed, by you?
    • What educational material could not be distorted, by you?
    • What school could not have its policies directed, by you?
    • What crime could not be 'gotten*away*with,' by you?

    THERE IS NO AMOUNT OF CORRUPTION YOU COULD NOT 'GET*AWAY WITH' IF YOU HAD ENOUGH 'MONEY!'
    Government, Business, Justice, Truth, Prices, Supply, Information, Education, Schools and Crime are all subject to corrupting influences by anyone to whom 'MONEY' IS NO OBJECT!
    Government is controlled by Modern "money," therefore Government does not create Modern "money," or it would control itself....
    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-24-2016 at 01:31 PM.

  17. #15
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    acptulsa writes: "The biggest obstacle we face is people have been brainwashed into believing monetary policy actually means something."



    ...yikes!!!...you don't think it 'means something' when some private, secret-squirrel banksters control the creation (or destruction) of our 'unit of account'?!...the most ubiquitous economic commodity...(virtually one half of every 'economic transaction')

    ...i'll show you some 'brainwashing':...if you were honest and comfortable and i asked you describe the first thing you see in your 'mind's eye' when i said the word 'dog'...you would/could conjure and describe some/a 'real dog'...same thing if i said 'cat,' 'automobile,' 'santa claus,' etc. ad nauseam...and if i asked you to describe your 'mind's eye' image of a baseball game, sexual intercourse, etc..you would have a realistic image in your 'mind's eye' based on your life experiences, etc...

    ...BUT, if, for example, i asked you to describe what appears immediately in your mind's eye when i ask you to conjure 'the creation of dollars/money'...i'm ALMOST CERTAIN (judging from your previous postings, etc.) you 'see' 'a printing press with the little green ragcloth rectangles rolling down the line...printed in some GOVERNMENT/PUBLIC building....now that's some 'brainwashing'!!!...

    ...don't feel bad, i too used to be a brainwashed republicrat monetary ignoramus...but now i see THE REALITY much more clearly in my mind's eye:...'money/dollar' creation is just some private commercial bankster lackey tapping some new number$ into some account they've created for someone...

    ...(again, if your brow is furrowed...you just may be a brainwa$hed republicrat!...
    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-25-2016 at 09:53 AM.

  18. #16
    Briefly:

    Monetary Policy - Money Creation (doesnt create value tho, so it is technically currency)
    Fiscal Policy - Money Destruction (currency is destroyed with taxes or loans are paid off)

    Id say 99% of people do NOT know the difference between the two terms.

    It is an oversimplification, but this needs to be clarified a bit also. Our currency is debt based, and founded on a fractional reserve requirement system. That means when you borrow money, the bank literally prints the money into existence. But, as those loans are paid off, that currency is technically destroyed. Mostly its digital. Cash itself isnt burned or literally destroyed. Problem is that even tho the currency that was borrowed into existence had disappeared, the interest accrued from the debt has to come from somewhere else. Every dollar you have in your hand represents someone elses debt to someone else.

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to pay off ALL DEBT. There simply is never enough money in existence. Interest is like the negative form of printing money and considered "perfectly legal" because of the risk. Also why most religions expressly forbid interest of any form. If the people cant print up money, then banks should not be able to print up debt.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by H. E. Panqui View Post
    acptulsa writes: "The biggest obstacle we face is people have been brainwashed into believing monetary policy actually means something."



    ...yikes!!!...you don't think it 'means something' when some private, secret-squirrel banksters control the creation (or destruction) of our 'unit of account'?!...the most ubiquitous economic commodity...(virtually one half of every 'economic transaction')

    ...i'll show you some 'brainwashing':...if you were honest and comfortable and i asked you describe the first thing you see in your 'mind's eye' when i said the word 'dog'...you would/could conjure and describe some/a 'real dog'...same thing if i said 'cat,' 'automobile,' 'santa claus,' etc. ad nauseam...and if i asked you to describe your 'mind's eye' image of a baseball game, sexual intercourse, etc..you would have a realistic image in your 'mind's eye' based on your life experiences, etc...

    ...BUT, if, for example, i asked you to describe what appears immediately in your mind's eye when i ask you to conjure 'the creation of dollars/money'...i'm ALMOST CERTAIN (judging from your previous postings, etc.) you 'see' 'a printing press with the little green ragcloth rectangles rolling down the line...printed in some GOVERNMENT/PUBLIC building....now that's some 'brainwashing'!!!...

    ...don't feel bad, i too used to be a brainwashed republicrat monetary ignoramus...but now i see THE REALITY much more clearly in my mind's eye:...'money/dollar' creation is just some private commercial bankster lackey tapping some new number$ into some account they've created for someone...

    ...(again, if your brow is furrowed...you just may be a brainwa$hed republicrat!...
    You are so full of it.

    First I say the problem is people who think monetary policy means something, and then I almost immediately say that recessions and depressions have only gotten longer and deeper since we went to funny money--which, being malleable, is about the only kind of money you can have a 'monetary policy' with.

    Your little misunderstandings result in the longest, most nonsensical rants. When I'm unclear on someone's concept, I prefer short questions first, and long insults only where absolutely necessary. You whip out the seventeen paragraph insults first, and can't be bothered to ask for clarification ever.

    I've never seen such a character for taking mortal exception to seventeen words out of seventeen hundred. And did we have the slightest problem with the other 1683? If you can't moan and whine and roll your eyes at the other 1683, then they aren't worth mentioning at all? Just a nuisance for someone more focused on finding a way to take seventeen words out of context?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 03-26-2016 at 09:13 AM.

  21. #18
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    acptulsa writes: "Your little misunderstandings result in the longest, most nonsensical rants. When I'm unclear on someone's concept, I prefer short questions first, and long insults only where absolutely necessary. You whip out the seventeen paragraph insults first, and can't be bothered to ask for clarification ever."



    (..please merely copy and paste one sentence of mine you find 'nonsensical'...i have come to the conclusion you are one of the 99%+ who has a false, 'brainwashed' 'understanding' of the basic and HIDEOUS realities of the origin and nature of 'money,' dollars' etc..so, as i stated in my first post:...we will have a failure to truly 'comm'unicate until you ditch your ?
    'government-printing-press imagery and theoretical 'ludwiggery' in favor of some honest 'monetary realism'...

    ...money is very important, you know...to paraphrase one wag, 'he who has the [money] rules'...'it' is never NEVER honestly and publicly talked about which has really 'worked me up' for a long time...and the more i learn the more i get 'worked up'...in fact, the VERY VERY few people i know who under$tand are worked up too..and if you're not 'worked-up' i've found it's because you're unconsciously unaware/ignorant....(please paste YOUR best words/ideas here on 'monetary realism' to prove my suspicion$ wrong..)

    ...'THE MONEY POWER' is the greatest control mechanism ever devised BY MAN...seems like only basic decency, common sense that we DEMAND, LOUDLY AND FREQUENTLY, an honest PUBLIC CONVERSATION about this [stinking fraud]..

    ...absent that, you may as well stfu about mere 'politics'...as ?your stinking republicrat politicians are CLEARLY sub$ervient to/puppets for the backroom fixer$...yup...always have been, always will be...

    ...btw..as i recall, it was, according to some, about this time of year that jesus the christ was killed and supposedly 'risen'...shortly after some altercation with some 'banksters' of the day...does this story still generate fear among republicrats?..is this the reason some people are scared to 'speak out?'...or is it mostly (as i suspect) the unconscious ignorance of the republicrat...
    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-27-2016 at 08:36 AM.

  22. #19
    Last edited by presence; 03-27-2016 at 07:01 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  23. #20
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    ..."the THEORY of money and credit"....

    ...i love 'theory'..(but only 'theories' from people who CLEARLY under$tand basic REALITY/REALITIES of the origin and nature of money and credit..)

    ...btw, presence...what's the common name of the plant in post #7?

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by H. E. Panqui View Post
    ...btw, presence...what's the common name of the plant in post #7?
    parrot tulip



    Last edited by presence; 03-27-2016 at 09:13 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  25. #22
    Most people don't want to change their beliefs. Comfort and programming are hard habits to break for humans. Save yourself, in time they will come to you.

  26. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kfarnan View Post
    Most people don't want to change their beliefs. Comfort and programming are hard habits to break for humans. Save yourself, in time they will come to you.
    (...good points!...my experience was that i was lucky enough to meet someone who made me aware that i was 'unconsciously unaware' of the hideous, destructive origin and nature, etc., of 'our' 'money'....he is--believe it or not--an active and vocal supporter of both 'the libertarians' and 'the greens'... he has a library of books, cassette tapes, dvd's, etc. and is generous..i'm very lucky to have met him...

    ...but even he never taught me anything...other than that i was an unconscious monetary ignoramus...in the end, 'we are all our own teachers' and i had to 'do the work'...

    ...btw, he knew i had an economics degree (he doesn't) and he's told me he revels in debating/schooling 'economists' on 'monetary realism'...now i know what he means!...
    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-27-2016 at 04:49 PM.

  27. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Briefly:

    Monetary Policy - Money Creation (doesnt create value tho, so it is technically currency)
    Fiscal Policy - Money Destruction (currency is destroyed with taxes or loans are paid off)

    Id say 99% of people do NOT know the difference between the two terms.

    It is an oversimplification, but this needs to be clarified a bit also. Our currency is debt based, and founded on a fractional reserve requirement system. That means when you borrow money, the bank literally prints the money into existence. But, as those loans are paid off, that currency is technically destroyed. Mostly its digital. Cash itself isnt burned or literally destroyed. Problem is that even tho the currency that was borrowed into existence had disappeared, the interest accrued from the debt has to come from somewhere else. Every dollar you have in your hand represents someone elses debt to someone else.

    It is IMPOSSIBLE to pay off ALL DEBT. There simply is never enough money in existence. Interest is like the negative form of printing money and considered "perfectly legal" because of the risk. Also why most religions expressly forbid interest of any form. If the people cant print up money, then banks should not be able to print up debt.
    (...good post!..i might argue that 'money creation' certainly does 'create value' for the banksters who get to use 'our' 'money' 'in the first round of spending'...the rest of us getting screwed out of that 'value'..


    http://www.apfn.org/Mind_Control/money/root.htm

    On January 24, 1939, Robert H. Hemphill, credit Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta stated:


    "If all the bank loans were paid no one would have a bank deposit and there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous: if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It (the banking problem) is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You are so full of it.

    First I say the problem is people who think monetary policy means something, and then I almost immediately say that recessions and depressions have only gotten longer and deeper since we went to funny money--which, being malleable, is about the only kind of money you can have a 'monetary policy' with.

    Your little misunderstandings result in the longest, most nonsensical rants. When I'm unclear on someone's concept, I prefer short questions first, and long insults only where absolutely necessary. You whip out the seventeen paragraph insults first, and can't be bothered to ask for clarification ever.

    I've never seen such a character for taking mortal exception to seventeen words out of seventeen hundred. And did we have the slightest problem with the other 1683? If you can't moan and whine and roll your eyes at the other 1683, then they aren't worth mentioning at all? Just a nuisance for someone more focused on finding a way to take seventeen words out of context?

    COnfused, you're defending the booms and busts created by the fed? His points were facts not insults.
    Last edited by kfarnan; 03-28-2016 at 08:53 AM.

  30. #26
    Booms and busts always happen- no matter what money or banking systems you use.

  31. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Booms and busts always happen- no matter what money or banking systems you use.


    (...maybe...but would you excuse an arsonist who pleads, 'even without people like me, you're still going to have fires!?...


    "To cause high prices all the federal reserve board will do will be to lower the re-discount rate..., producing an expansion of credit and a rising stock market; then when... business men are adjusted to these conditions, it can check... prosperity in mid-career by arbitrarily raising the rate of interest.

    It can cause the pendulum of a rising and falling market to swing gently back and forth by slight changes in the discount rate, or cause violent fluctuations by greater rate variation, and in either case it will possess inside information as to financial conditions and advance knowledge of the coming change, either up or down.

    This is the strangest, most dangerous advantage ever placed in the hands of a special privilege class by any Government that ever existed.

    The system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money.

    They know in advance when to create panics to their advantage. They also know when to stop panic. Inflation and deflation work equally well for them when they control finance..."

    (..widely attributed to Rep. Charles Lindbergh (R-MN))

    ...get real, zippy!!...wouldn't you like to [practically] KNOW when/what 'derivative$' to purcha$e!!...that's a $weet gig, zippy!...

    (...hopefully all/most of the folks 'in THE KNOW and raking it in' are really nice, really peaceful, really wise, compassionate, productive people..'cause putting 'the money power' into the hands of evil, lying, corrupt, psychopathic warmongers could put some heavy HEAVY weight$ around the necks of the rest of us...gee whiz, we can't let that happen, can we zippy?..
    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 03-28-2016 at 02:10 PM.

  32. #28
    Start out by asking someone to pull out their credit card, the driver's license and their social security card from their wallet, then ask "Do you spell your name in all capital letters? No? Then why do banks and governments do it?"

    Go from there...
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  33. #29
    I like Parrot Tulips . If you want to know if something is money , ask me if I want to accept it .

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by H. E. Panqui View Post
    osan writes: "Start with the definition of "money". Without that, you have no basis for communicating the ideas. So start with the properties of money, durable, divisible, fungible, and... oh bollocks... You get my meaning.

    Then ask whether a dollar is money. Given the definition, they hopefully have the intellectual hp to dope it out. If not, ask simple questions a la Socrates such that he leads himself to the correct answer.

    Then make the distinction between money and mere currency."



    ...i'm not sure the term 'money' has been defined in law..' what we were to use 'as money' is defined...and ignored...who is to issue it is defined...and ignored.....etc...
    Perhaps you need to acquire a copy of Bouvier's law dictionary. To the point at hand:

    MONEY. Gold, silver, and some other less precious metals, in the progress of civilization and commerce, have become the common standards of value; in order to avoid the delay and inconvenience of regulating their weight and quality whenever passed, the governments of the civilized world have caused them to be manufactured in certain portions, and marked with a Stamp which attests their value; this is called money. 1 Inst. 207; 1 Hale's Hist. 188; 1 Pardess. n. 22; Dom. Lois civ. liv. prel. t. 3, s. 2, n. 6.

    2. For many purposes, bank notes; (q. v.) 1 Y. & J, 380; 3 Mass. 405; 14 Mass. 122; 2 N. H. Rep. 333; 17 Mass. 560; 7 Cowen, 662; 4 Pick. 74; Bravt. 24; a check; 4 Bing. 179; S. C. 13 E. C. L. R. 295; and negotiable notes; 3 Mass. 405; will be so considered. To support a count for money had and received, the receipt by the defendant of bank notes, promissory notes: 3 Mass. 405; 3 Shepl. 285; 9 Pick. 93; John. 132; credit in account, in the books of a third person; 3 Campb. 199; or any chattel, is sufficient; 4 Pick. 71; 17 Mass. 560; and will be treated as money. See 7 Wend. 311; 8 Wend. 641; 7 S. & R. 246; 8 T. R. 687; 3 B. & P. 559; 1 Y. & J. 380.


    3. The constitution of the United States has vested in congress the power "to coin money, and regulate the value thereof." Art. 1, s. 8. [emphasis mine]


    4. By virtue of this constitutional authority, the following provisions have been enacted by congress.


    1. Act of April 2, 1792, 1 Story's L. U. S. 229.


    1. 9. That there shall be from time to time, struck and coined at the said mint, coins of gold, silver, and copper, of the following denominations, values, and descriptions, viz: Eagles; each to be of the value of ten dollars, or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four-eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard, gold. Half eagles; each to be of the value of five dollars, and to contain one hundred and twenty-three grains and six-eighths of a pure, or one hundred and thirty-five grains of standard gold. Quarter eagles; each to be of the value of two dollars and a half dollar, and to contain sixty-one grains and seven-eighths of a grain of pure, or sixty-seven grains and four-eighths of a grain of standard gold. Dollars, or units; each to be of the value of a Spanish milled dollar, as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four-sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver. Half dollars; each to be of half the value of the dollar or unit, and to contain one hundred and eighty-five grains and ten-sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or two hundred and eight grains of standard, silver. Quarter dollars; each to be of one-fourth the value of the dollar, or unit, and to contain ninety-two grains and thirteen-sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or one hundred and four grains of standard, silver. Dimes; each to be of the value of one-tenth of a dollar, or unit, and to contain thirty-seven grains and two sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or forty-one grains and three-fifth parts of a grain of standard, silver. Half dimes; each to be of the value of one-twentieth of dollar, and to contain eighteen grains and nine-sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or twenty grains and four-fifth parts of a grain of standard, silver. Cents; each to be of the value of the one-hundredth part of a dollar, and to contain eleven pennyweights of copper. Half cents; each to be of the value of half a cent, and to contain five pennyweights and, a half a pennyweight of copper.


    5. - 10. That upon the said coins, respectively, there shall be the following devises and legends, namely: Upon one side of each of the said coins there shall be an impression emblematic of liberty, with an inscription of the word liberty, and the year of the coinage; and, upon the reverse of each of the gold and silver coins, there shall be the figure or representation of an eagle, with this inscription, "United States of America:" and, upon the reverse of each of the copper coins there shall be an inscription which shall express the denomination of the piece, namely, cent or half cent, as the case may require.


    6. - 11. That the proportional value of gold to silver in all coins which shall, by law, be current as money within the United States, shall be as fifteen to one, according to quantity in weight, of pure gold or pure silver; that is to say, every fifteen pounds weight of pure silver shall be of equal value in all payments, with one pound weight of pure gold; and so in proportion, as to any greater or less quantities of the respective metals.


    7. - 12. That the standard for all gold coins of the United States, shall be eleven parts fine to one part alloy: and accordingly, that eleven parts in twelve, of the entire weight of each of the said coins, shall consist of pure gold, and the remaining one-twelfth part of alloy; and the said alloy shall be composed of silver and copper in such proportions, not exceeding one-half silver, as shall be found convenient; to be regulated by the director of the mint for the time being, With the approbation of the president of the United States, until further provision shall be made by law. And to the end that the necessary information may be had in order to the making of such further provision, it shall be the duty of the director of the mint, at the expiration of a year after commencing the operations of the said mint, to report to congress the practice thereof during the said year, touching the composition of the alloy of the said gold coins, the reasons for such practice, and the experiments and observations which shall have been made concerning the effects of different proportions of silver and copper in the said alloy.


    8.- 13. That the standard for all silver coins of the United States, shall be one thousand four hundred and eighty-five parts fine to one hundred and seventy-nine parts alloy; and, accordingly, that one thousand four hundred and eighty-five parts in one thousand six hundred and sixty-four parts, of the entire weight of each of the said coins, shall consist of pure silver, and the remaining one hundred and seventy nine parts of alloy, which alloy shall be wholly of copper.


    9. - 2. Act of June 28, 1834, 4 Sharsw. cont. of Story's Laws U. S. 2376.


    1. That the gold coins of the United States shall contain the following quantities of metal, that is to say: each eagle shall contain two hundred and thirty-two grains of pure gold, and two hundred and fifty-eight grains of standard gold; each half-eagle, one hundred and sixteen grains of pure gold, and one hundred and twenty-nine grains of standard gold; each quarter eagle shall contain fifty-eight grains of pure gold, and sixty-four and a half grains of standard gold; every such eagle shall be of the value of ten dollars; every such half eagle shall be of the value of five dollars; and every such quarter eagle shall be of the value of two dollars and fifty cents; and the said gold coins shall be receivable in all payments, when of full weight, according to their respective values; and when of less than full weight, at less values, proportioned to their respective actual weights.


    10. - 2. That all standard gold or silver deposited for coinage after the thirty-first of July next, shall be paid for in coin under the direction of the secretary of the treasury, within five days from the making of such deposit, deducting from the amount of said deposit of gold and silver, one-half of one per centum: Provided, That no deduction shall be made unless said advance be required by such depositor within forty days.


    11. - 3. That all gold coins of the United States, minted anterior to the thirty-first day of July next, shall be receivable in all payments at the rate of ninety-four and eight-tenths of a cent per pennyweight.


    12. - 3. Act of January 18, 1837, 4 Sharsw. cont. of Story's Laws U. S. 2524. 9. That of the silver coins, the dollar shall be of the weight of four hundred and twelve and one-half grains; the half dollar of the weight of two hundred and six and one-fourth grains; the quarter dollar of the weight of one hundred and three and one-eighth grains; the dime, or tenth part of a dollar, of the weight of forty-one and a quarter grains; and the half dime, or twentieth part of a dollar, of the weight of twenty grains, and five-eighths of a grain. And that dollars, half dollars, and quarter dollars, dimes and half dimes, shall be legal tenders of payment, according to their nominal value, for any sums whatever.


    13. - 10. That of the gold coins, the weight of the eagle shall be two hundred and fifty-eight grains; that of the half eagle, one hundred and twenty-nine grains; and that of the quarter eagle, sixty-four and one-half grain;. And that for all sums whatever, the eagle shall be a legal tender of payment for ten dollars; the half eagle for five dollars and the quarter eagle for two and a half dollars.


    14.- 11. That the silver coins heretofore issued at the mint of the United States, and the gold coins issued since the thirty-first day of July, one thousand eight hundred and thirty-four, shall continue to be legal tenders of payment for their nominal values, on the same terms as if they were of the coinage provided for by this act.


    15. - 12. That of the copper coins, the weight of the cent shall be one hundred and sixty-eight grains, and the weight of the half cent eighty four grains. And the cent shall be considered of the value of one hundredth part of a dollar, and the half cent of the value of one two-hundredth part of a dollar.


    16. - 13. That upon the coins struck at the mint, there shall be the following devices and legends; upon one side of each of said coins, there shall be an impression emblematic of liberty, with an inscription of the word LIBERTY, and the year of the coinage; and upon the reverse of each of the gold and silver coins, there shall be the figure or representation of an eagle, with the inscription United States of America, and a designation of the value of the coin; but on the reverse of the dime and half dime, cent and half cent, the figure of the eagle shall be omitted.


    17. - 38. That all acts or parts of acts heretofore passed, relating to the mint and coins of the United States, which are inconsistent with the provisions of this act, be, and the same are hereby repealed.
    18. - 4. Act of March 3, 1825, 3 Story's L. U. S. 2005.


    20. That, if any person or persons shall falsely make, forge, or counterfeit, or cause or procure to be falsely made, forged, or counterfeited, or willingly aid or assist in falsely making, forging, or counterfeiting any coin, in the resemblance or similitude of the gold or silver coin, which has been, or hereafter may be, coined at the mint of the United States; or in the resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin which by law now is, or hereafter may be made current in the United States; or shall pass, utter, publish, or sell, or attempt to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or bring into the United States, from any foreign place, with intent to pass, utter, publish, or sell, as true, any such false, forged, or counterfeited coin, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeited, with intent to defraud any body politic, or corporate, or any other person or persons, whatsoever; every person, so offending, shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by fine, not exceeding five thousand dollars, and by imprisonment, and confinement to hard labor, not exceeding ten years, according to the, aggravation of the offence.


    19. - 21. That, if any person or persons shall falsely make, forge, or counterfeit, or cause or procure to be falsely made, forged or counterfeited, or willingly aid or assist in falsely making, forging or counterfeiting any coin, in the resemblance or similitude of any copper coin, which has been, or hereafter may be, coined at the mint of the United States; or shall pass, utter, publish, or sell, or attempt to pass, utter, publish or sell, or bring into the United States, from any foreign place, with intent to pass, utter, publish, or sell as true, any such false, forged, or counterfeited coin, with intent to defraud any body politic, or corporate, or any other person or persons whatsoever; every person so offending, shall be deemed guilty of felony, and shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by fine, not exeeeding one thousand dollars, and by imprisonment, and confinement, to hard labor, not exceeding three years. See generally, 1 J. J. Marsh. 202; 1 Bibb, 330; 2 Wash. 282; 3 Call, 557; 5 S. & R. 48; 1 Dall. 124; 2 Dana, 298; 3 Conn. 534; 4 Harr. & McHen. 199.
    20. - 5. Act of March 3, 1849, Minot's Statutes at Large of U. S. 397.


    21. - 1. That there shall be, from time to time, struck and coined at the mint of the United States, and the branches thereof, conformably in all respects to law, (except that on the reverse of the gold dollar the figure of the eagle shall be omitted), and conformably in all respects to the standard for gold coins now established by law, coins of gold of the following denominations and values, viz.: double eagles, each to be of the value of twenty dollars, or units, and gold dollars, each to be of the value of one dollar, or unit.


    22. - 2. That, for all sums whatever, the double eagle shall be a legal tender for twenty dollars, and the gold dollar shall be a legal tender for one dollar.


    23. - 3. That all laws now in force in relation to the coins of the United States, and the striking and coining the same, shall, so far as applicable, have full force and effect in relation to the coins herein authorized, whether, the said laws are penal or otherwise; and whether they are for preventing counterfeiting or debasement, for protecting the currency, for regulating and guarding the process of striking and coining, and the preparations therefor, or for the security of the coin, or for any other purpose.


    24. - 4. That, in adjusting the weights of gold coins henceforward, the following deviations from the standard weight shall not be exceeded in any of the single pieces; namely, in the double eagle, the eagle, and the half eagle, one half of a grain, and in the quarter eagle, and gold dollar, one quarter of a grain; and that, in weighing a large number of pieces together, when delivered from the chief coiner to the treasurer, and from the treasurer to the depositors, the deviation from the standard weight shall not exceed three pennyweights in one thousand double eagles; two pennyweights in one thousand, eagles; one and one half pennyweights in one thousand half eagle;; one pennyweight in one thousand quarter eagles; and one half of a pennyweight in one thousand gold dollars.


    25. - 6. Act of March 3, 1851. Minot's Statutes at Large, U. S. 591.


    26. - 11. That from and after the passage of this act, it shall be lawful to coin at the mint of the United States and its branches, a piece of the denomination and legal value of three cents, or three hundredths of a dollar, to be composed of three-fourths silver and one-fourth copper and to weigh twelve grains and three eighths of a grain; that the said coin shall bear such devices as shall be conspicuously different from those of the other silver coins, and of the gold dollar, but having the inscription United States of America, and its denomination and date; and that it shall be a legal tender in payment of debts for all sums of thirty cents and under. And that no ingots shall be used for the coinage of the three cent pieces herein authorized, of which the quality differs more than five thousandths from the legal standard; and that in adjusting the weight of the said coin, the following deviations from the standard weight shall not be exceeded, namely, one half of a grain in the single piece, and one pennyweight in a thousand pieces.

    As you see, there is plenty of speak of money in law, including legal definitions. This, however, is not equivalent to a technical definition, which is by far the more important, for it is that upon which the legal ought to rest.

    ...i would state to you that i believe 'dollars' are 'money' (de facto) because 'dollars' are 'a readily accepted tool used to facilitate transactions involving virtually all goods, services and all other assets...it's hideous and corrupted...but it's 'money'..that's what we all call it, right?..
    No.

    A dollar is currency. Mere currency. Perhaps later we shall see why I so disparage it.

    Currencies that are not money are prone to the ebbs and flows of economic, political, and other capricious fashion, not to mention other sorts of circumstance. Actual monies, OTOH, are far less prone to the sorts of troubles to which currency may fall. This is a REALLY important point and you should study the reasons why what I have written here is the bedrock truth.

    As to what you believe... REALLY? I can believe anything I choose; it does not follow that it is perforce true. Believing my pecker is a goldfish does not make it a goldfish. Take THAT imagery with you into dreamland this day and allow the horror of it to learn you the lesson that you might never again offend thyself so.

    ...as to the distinction between 'money and mere currency' it seems arcane...pointless...i want to go to a red sox game..the ticket-guy gives me a ticket for 'money' or 'mere currency'...the butcher gives me meat for money or mere currency...the tax collector allows me stay in my(their) home if i give him 'money or mere currency'...etc. ad nau$eam..
    It seems so to you because you view money in only the most superficial terms. Look more deeply into the role it plays, especially in the longer term, and all of a sudden things change their aspect.

    Red sox games... meat... condoms... cocaine... You are looking at this so single-dimensionally and it is not a good thing. Consider what happens when mere currencies are made subject to the usual perturbations that occur over time - a lifetime, for example. You $1 Sox ticket becomes $100; $1 pot roast is now $17; that $20 gram of blow now sets you back $300 and your nickel bag is now $500. The condoms are now "free", so I guess you get a pass on that one.

    You counter "but salaries and wages grow with prices." Do they? Sometimes yes; sometimes no, and historically it has been much more often "no". What of debt-based currencies? Getting paid for work rendered becomes a LOAN. Every second that dollar bill sits in your pocket, it is burning an ever wider hole in it as it loses value.

    We could go on with example after example, but it is not my desire here to write a treatise. It has been done before, and by people far smarter than myself.

    ...again, most all people i meet are fundamentally ignorant of even the basic origin and nature of 'money'...even people who have developed some understandings of sophisticated economic constructs/theories...it's been my experience many/most people falsely believe 'the government' 'prints the money'...someone's had to work very effectively to inculcate this kind of hideous 'retarding' ignorance..(an ignorance from which 'the bank$ter class' profits hand$omely)...
    This is truth.


    THINK






    PLACE YOURSELF IN THE POSITION OF BEING ABLE TO CREATE MONEY; EVERYONE MUST ACCEPT IT (YOUR LEGAL TENDER ACT); NO ONE REALLY UNDERSTANDS 'WHAT' YOU HAVE "GOING" FOR YOU (ITS YOUR SECRET); ALL THE 'MONEY' IN THE WORLD IS YOURS TO CREATE ('MONEY' IS OF NO OBJECT TO YOU); UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS:

    • What function of Government could not be corrupted, by you?
    • What business could not be destroyed, by you?
    • What manner of injustice could not be inflicted on anyone, by you?
    • What truth could not be suppressed, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its price suppressed, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its price supported, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its supply decreased, by you?
    • What commodity could not have its supply increased, by you?
    • What information media policy could not be directed, by you?
    • What educational material could not be distorted, by you?
    • What school could not have its policies directed, by you?
    • What crime could not be 'gotten*away*with,' by you?


    THERE IS NO AMOUNT OF CORRUPTION YOU COULD NOT 'GET*AWAY WITH' IF YOU HAD ENOUGH 'MONEY!'


    Government, Business, Justice, Truth, Prices, Supply, Information, Education, Schools and Crime are all subject to corrupting influences by anyone to whom 'MONEY' IS NO OBJECT!
    Government is controlled by Modern "money," therefore Government does not create Modern "money," or it would control itself....
    The list and the notion behind it are sound. The last sentence is seriously flawed.

    But the point I think you are attempting to make, unless I am mistaken, is that regardless whether "money" or "mere currency", if you have enough of it, you can do all manner of corrupt things. I cannot but agree. But were actual money to be used in lieu of arbitrary currency, the issues listed would become very difficult to make real, of not impossible. This is the blessing of so-called "scarcity", as well as the other properties of real, actual money. With real money, you cannot have enough.

    None of this is to say that bad things cannot happen even in a money-based economy. However, the sorts of bad things tend to be different from those which arise with the use of non-money as currency. Real money places hard, physical limits on the corruptions listed above, as well as most of the rest. So long as the money remains sacrosanct, which is to say it is not debased, certain disciplines remain in effect as matters of physical reality that no amount of personal or organizational corruption can circumvent.
    Last edited by osan; 03-28-2016 at 06:44 PM.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

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