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Thread: Former Vegan girl made 2 critical mistakes that was destroying her health

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    She avoided animal-derived, fat-soluble vitamins.
    Synthetic D is a neurotoxin that makes people hyper, angry, and morbidly obtuse.
    I havent heard about the neurotoxin thing of synethetic D.. Do you have a link for that?



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    She obviously was taking B12 tablets and not getting injections. You are correct that injections probably would have sufficed for her, however its still not a complete vitamin like the B12 found in food. The fact that this girl solved her problem by eating meat shows the B12 in the food is of a superior nature than those cheap tablets you say you use.
    If she had a problem with her intrinsic factor, how was she able to absorb B12 in meat? The whole purpose of getting a B12 shot is to bypass the digestive track.

    Depends on the nutrients involved, but in this case of B12, one nutrient not being absorbed is enough to kill this lady.
    Even if true, the article you posted is still misleading trying to blame it all on veganism. At most, the article should warn that a very small number of people who have issues with intrinsic factor need B12 shots to do a vegan diet properly.

    Its a fact. The fact remains this girl was able to assimilate Vitamin B12 when she ate it naturally in meat. She was unable to assimilate B12 from tablets. This proves my claim.
    You have to know how much and how consistently she was taking B12 supplements (if she was really taking them at all) and then you have to analyze a sample of the brand she was taking to make sure it actually contained the amount of B12 it claimed and wasn't some bunk brand. Otherwise, correlation does not imply causation.

    The fact is though, regardless of the B12 issue, her other problems on her vegan diet was her fault. She wasn't eating enough to sustain herself. You at least need to admit to that.

  4. #63
    I'd rather enjoy a healthy and delicious steak (fish, egg, etc.) than worry about that mess so I can follow a misguided ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    If she had a problem with her intrinsic factor, how was she able to absorb B12 in meat? The whole purpose of getting a B12 shot is to bypass the digestive track.


    Even if true, the article you posted is still misleading trying to blame it all on veganism. At most, the article should warn that a very small number of people who have issues with intrinsic factor need B12 shots to do a vegan diet properly.


    You have to know how much and how consistently she was taking B12 supplements (if she was really taking them at all) and then you have to analyze a sample of the brand she was taking to make sure it actually contained the amount of B12 it claimed and wasn't some bunk brand. Otherwise, correlation does not imply causation.

    The fact is though, regardless of the B12 issue, her other problems on her vegan diet was her fault. She wasn't eating enough to sustain herself. You at least need to admit to that.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    If she had a problem with her intrinsic factor, how was she able to absorb B12 in meat? The whole purpose of getting a B12 shot is to bypass the digestive track.

    .
    Thats the difference between getting Vitamin B12 naturally in food, and taking a synthetic supplement.. A natural food vitamin source will have accompanying nutrition that allows absorption and assimilation that the synthetic tablets just dont have. Plus youre getting a full range of vitamin B12 isomers that again synthetic vitamins just do not have.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    Thats the difference between getting Vitamin B12 naturally in food, and taking a synthetic supplement.. A natural food vitamin source will have accompanying nutrition that allows absorption and assimilation that the synthetic tablets just dont have. Plus youre getting a full range of vitamin B12 isomers that again synthetic vitamins just do not have.
    Admit it Chester, deep inside you really want to eat soy curd and a tasty B12 tablet, but you are too married to the cult of meat. I mean really, why would anyone eat a nice thick delicious, nutritious steak when they can have twice as much bland tofu so devoid of nutrients that you need pills to sustain yourself?

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Admit it Chester, deep inside you really want to eat soy curd and a tasty B12 tablet, but you are too married to the cult of meat. I mean really, why would anyone eat a nice thick delicious, nutritious steak when they can have twice as much bland tofu so devoid of nutrients that you need pills to sustain yourself?
    There are some doctors that believe that vegans dont like meat because they have $#@!ed up digestive systems and that it causes them to be sick or naseous just at the sight or smell of meat. I dont know if thats true. But even If I was predisposed to eating vegetarian I would be at least a pescatarian to take advantage of the nutrients in seafood. Small fish like sardines are incredibly nutritious.

    I even know a vegan who wont eat seaweed because he says it looks like an animal.. so I dont know wtf thats about. Some vegans will eat bi-valves because they say they dont have a nervous system.. its really a bit much to keep track of all the variants IMO.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    There are some doctors that believe that vegans dont like meat because they have $#@!ed up digestive systems and that it causes them to be sick or naseous just at the sight or smell of meat. I dont know if thats true. But even If I was predisposed to eating vegetarian I would be at least a pescatarian to take advantage of the nutrients in seafood. Small fish like sardines are incredibly nutritious.

    I even know a vegan who wont eat seaweed because he says it looks like an animal.. so I dont know wtf thats about. Some vegans will eat bi-valves because they say they dont have a nervous system.. its really a bit much to keep track of all the variants IMO.
    I was just kidding above.

    My wife is a vegetarian, but she really has never had cravings for meat and thrives very well on it. She is also not militant at all about it.

    ETA I also read somewhere that pepsin (the digestive protein enzyme can vary in people by 1000 times.

    I definitely don't have her metabolism and do better on a meat and vegetable diet-- I've fine tuned it over my 44 years. I tend to look like a concentration camp survivor if I go too long on a vegan diet.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I'd rather enjoy a healthy and delicious steak (fish, egg, etc.) than worry about that mess so I can follow a misguided ideology.
    Dandy, but why are telling me this?

    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I tend to look like a concentration camp survivor if I go too long on a vegan diet.
    Well if you've been paying attention to this thread, don't do what that girl Tasha did on her vegan diet.
    Last edited by farreri; 03-19-2016 at 04:00 PM.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    Thats the difference between getting Vitamin B12 naturally in food, and taking a synthetic supplement.. A natural food vitamin source will have accompanying nutrition that allows absorption and assimilation that the synthetic tablets just dont have. Plus youre getting a full range of vitamin B12 isomers that again synthetic vitamins just do not have.
    Do you have any scientific evidence that people with intrinsic factor issues can absorb B12 in animal foods, but not a B12 tablet? You're free to give your opinion, but since this is a health section, you should take responsibility in making sure what you post is more than just opinion.

    Do you acknowledge she wasn't eating enough to sustain her?

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Dandy, but why are telling me this?
    Because you OPed this thread for discussion, of course.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Because you OPed this thread for discussion, of course.
    While you're responding, what's your practice you keep talking about?

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    While you're responding, what's your practice you keep talking about?
    I'm a chiropractor. I was licensed in massage and acupuncture before moving to a different state, but I incorporate those principles into my work. I also teach a martial art that focuses less on techniques but rather keeping the body in the parasympathetic state rather than the fight or flight state so the body can move more freely and relaxed-- This has really changed the way I have viewed people in the last few years.

    Also, I don't view my credentials as being proof that I know anything. There are militant vegan chiropractors and militant atkins chiros. For me, its given me years of interacting with patients and seeing how complex we really are. One size does not fit all and that includes everything from body work to (of course) diet.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I'm a chiropractor. I was licensed in massage and acupuncture before moving to a different state, but I incorporate those principles into my work. I also teach a martial art that focuses less on techniques but rather keeping the body in the parasympathetic state rather than the fight or flight state so the body can move more freely and relaxed-- This has really changed the way I have viewed people in the last few years.

    Also, I don't view my credentials as being proof that I know anything. There are militant vegan chiropractors and militant atkins chiros. For me, its given me years of interacting with patients and seeing how complex we really are. One size does not fit all and that includes everything from body work to (of course) diet.
    Did you have much in the way of nutrition training?

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Did you have much in the way of nutrition training?
    Yes, a lot more than MDs but less than naturopaths. Ironically, back when I was in school, the main guy who was teaching it, liked a heavily plant based diet. I hear school has changed since then, but as I said "experts" disagree, so it's best to follow what works for you.

    Back then, the plant based diet didn't work for me at all, but I was eating a lot of garbage with it. I almost looked like a concentration camp survivor.

    One of my favorite books that really changed my life for the better was Williams Wolcott's The Metabolic Typing Diet. It placed me as needing high fats and protein, and it really worked at the time. It gave me new energy and a new life. I needed to rebuild after years of eating garbage.

    However, ever since I gave up transfats, HFCS, artificial junk, and stick to healthier foods, I have had better success eating a plant based diets on occasion.

    I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian and we go through lent as vegans as part of the fast. I actually do pretty good. For health reasons I can break the fast anytime, but I don't feel the need to. I do like it when I get to go back to my regular diet. I find a few eggs can keep me sated and energized for five or more hours, where a plant based diet will only do that for an hour or two.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Yes, a lot more than MDs but less than naturopaths. Ironically, back when I was in school, the main guy who was teaching it, liked a heavily plant based diet. I hear school has changed since then, but as I said "experts" disagree, so it's best to follow what works for you.

    Back then, the plant based diet didn't work for me at all, but I was eating a lot of garbage with it. I almost looked like a concentration camp survivor.

    One of my favorite books that really changed my life for the better was Williams Wolcott's The Metabolic Typing Diet. It placed me as needing high fats and protein, and it really worked at the time. It gave me new energy and a new life. I needed to rebuild after years of eating garbage.

    However, ever since I gave up transfats, HFCS, artificial junk, and stick to healthier foods, I have had better success eating a plant based diets on occasion.

    I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian and we go through lent as vegans as part of the fast. I actually do pretty good. For health reasons I can break the fast anytime, but I don't feel the need to. I do like it when I get to go back to my regular diet. I find a few eggs can keep me sated and energized for five or more hours, where a plant based diet will only do that for an hour or two.
    Are there any vitamins you recommend people take? Do you take any yourself?

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Do you have any scientific evidence that people with intrinsic factor issues can absorb B12 in animal foods, but not a B12 tablet? You're free to give your opinion, but since this is a health section, you should take responsibility in making sure what you post is more than just opinion.

    Do you acknowledge she wasn't eating enough to sustain her?
    I think the circumstances proved what happened. The girl couldnt absorb synthetic nutrients but was able to absorb natural nutrients. It happens all the time..Synthetic nutrients are a poor replacement for real foods.. Even the ones you take are not being absorbed by your system to any extent when compared with real food vitamins. But everybody is different and you could have good stores of B12 in your system, etc.. And we dont know EXACTLY what the cause of her malabsorption was. It could have been the cobalt mineral itself, or her body was unable to convert it to another form that her body needed... There really is more unknown than known in these things but because meat corrected her condition it stands to reason that it was some additional nutrient that wasnt present in the synthetic tablets. Do I know for a fact? No. But modern man's knowledge of nutrition is so niggardly its doubtful doctors would even be able to test for the nutrients in question to know the answer 100%.

    If she was hungry all the time she obviously wasnt eating correctly. But if she had gone from a SAD diet to a clean vegan diet its possible her natural inclinations were hard for her to interpret. Her body should have made her hungry for B12 containing foods. Perhaps if she had figured out the problem earlier and sought out a vegetation source for B12 she could have corrected the problem and stayed on her vegan diet. It would be an interesting case to study.

  20. #77
    I thought of you, Ferrari. I think I had a vegan dinner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I'm a chiropractor. I was licensed in massage and acupuncture before moving to a different state, but I incorporate those principles into my work. I also teach a martial art that focuses less on techniques but rather keeping the body in the parasympathetic state rather than the fight or flight state so the body can move more freely and relaxed-- This has really changed the way I have viewed people in the last few years.

    Also, I don't view my credentials as being proof that I know anything. There are militant vegan chiropractors and militant atkins chiros. For me, its given me years of interacting with patients and seeing how complex we really are. One size does not fit all and that includes everything from body work to (of course) diet.
    ^^^^
    THIS

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    I think the circumstances proved what happened. The girl couldnt absorb synthetic nutrients but was able to absorb natural nutrients. It happens all the time..
    Where do you get it happens all the time? If synthetics didn't work then pharmaceuticals wouldn't work. You're trying to make it out to be something way more complicated than it really is. Supplements are hardly regulated, so how do we know they contain what's claimed? Zippyjuan just posted an article about how Herbal Supplements Are Often Not What They Seem. The more logical answer to why this girl's B12 was so low was she wasn't taking enough B12, or she was taking a shoddy brand.

    If she was hungry all the time she obviously wasnt eating correctly.
    As I've been saying, she did the diet wrong. She needs to take responsibility for her actions.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I thought of you, Ferrari. I think I had a vegan dinner.
    OK, well thanks lol

    I would say the next time I have fish for dinner I'll think of you, but that might be interpreted wrong.



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  25. #81
    I am not sure why it seems like there are people who get mad that there are people who simply don't eat meat who do not judge what others eat. Most of the problems with the vegan diet can be solved by having milk, anyway. When I post on the topic of diet, the only point I try to make clear is that all humans can be healthy and well-off without meat, and it is easy to meet your macro and micro nutrients, particularly if you have milk. I don't judge people for eating meat -- that would be weird. But I have seen people who do eat meat get defensive and attack the idea that it can possibly be healthy or easy to go without meat.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I thought of you, Ferrari. I think I had a vegan dinner.
    How did your vegan taste ?
    "I am a bird"

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    I havent heard about the neurotoxin thing of synethetic D.. Do you have a link for that?
    Admittedly, this will be a case of "your science vs my science" as some will flat out reject the Weston Price Foundation as carnivore cheerleaders. Keep in mind that Weston Price made his conclusions counter to a deeply held pro-vegetarian belief after traveling the world trying in vain to find a healthy vegan society.

    "Neurotoxin" may have been too strong of a word, but I was posting from memory of a Sally Fallon lecture.

    http://www.westonaprice.org/uncatego...n-plain-sight/
    "This here's Miss Bonnie Parker. I'm Clyde Barrow. We rob banks."

  28. #84
    I do think that being anti-vegetarian but using vegans as an example will not result in an accurate assessment. There are things from animals that are beneficial, and dairy has a lot of those things. Vegetarians consume dairy, which makes their diet easy to be healthy, whereas it is harder to be vegan (but not impossible if you know what to eat).

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    OK, well thanks lol

    I would say the next time I have fish for dinner I'll think of you, but that might be interpreted wrong.
    LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    How did your vegan taste ?
    Delicious. The closer to the bone, the sweeter the meat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Where do you get it happens all the time? If synthetics didn't work then pharmaceuticals wouldn't work. You're trying to make it out to be something way more complicated than it really is. Supplements are hardly regulated, so how do we know they contain what's claimed? Zippyjuan just posted an article about how Herbal Supplements Are Often Not What They Seem. The more logical answer to why this girl's B12 was so low was she wasn't taking enough B12, or she was taking a shoddy brand.
    Yes, it is possible that the bottle of B12 pills she took contained no B12 at all. She could have had some fraud pulled on her, however I think the more likely explanation is that the B12 that she took was simply not utilized by her body. This does happen all the time. The B12 you take from synthetic tablets is only a sliver of the real B12 found in foods... Many times nutrients cant even be measured properly or the blood serum test isnt an accurate method. It is alot more complicated than science has figured out. Not everybody has problems, not everybody has the same reactions. Sometimes other foods in the diet can compensate for lost vitamins and your body can make the vitamins itself out of accompanying nutrients.. Again, it would be an interesting case study if this girl found a vegetable source of B12 and see if she could have corrected herself. But the synthetic vitamins was not the way to go for her.

    As I've been saying, she did the diet wrong. She needs to take responsibility for her actions.
    While I have said that her constant hunger means she wasnt eating correctly that doesnt necessarily mean she did veganism "wrong". It can also mean that veganism is wrong for her.
    ,,..

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    Admittedly, this will be a case of "your science vs my science" as some will flat out reject the Weston Price Foundation as carnivore cheerleaders. Keep in mind that Weston Price made his conclusions counter to a deeply held pro-vegetarian belief after traveling the world trying in vain to find a healthy vegan society.

    "Neurotoxin" may have been too strong of a word, but I was posting from memory of a Sally Fallon lecture.

    http://www.westonaprice.org/uncatego...n-plain-sight/
    I like Weston Price a lot and I dont doubt the possibility of any synthetic having some bad reaction... ill check out the link

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    While I have said that her constant hunger means she wasnt eating correctly that doesnt necessarily mean she did veganism "wrong". It can also mean that veganism is wrong for her.
    She thought she could sustain herself with large salads. She was doing it wrong. It had nothing to do with veganism.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    reject the Weston Price Foundation as carnivore cheerleaders.

    http://www.westonaprice.org/uncatego...n-plain-sight/
    They sure seem to be!

    Vegetarianism and Nutrient Deficiencies

    I decided to go vegetarian when I was 18 and vegan soon after,..... over the next two years my health took a series of blows: my digestion fell apart; fatigue set in; anxiety took hold; and tooth decay overran my entire mouth—a single visit to the dentist yielded a treatment plan that would take the following year to complete. I was a mess, and I didn’t know why. - See more at: http://www.westonaprice.org/health-t....JcgR60f9.dpuf
    I know why, he made the same mistake that Tasha girl made!

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    She thought she could sustain herself with large salads. She was doing it wrong. It had nothing to do with veganism.
    I think that is the case for most if not all people who say they tried going without meat and encountered difficulties. They didn't know that you can't just eat cereal, potato chips, and salad. There needs to be a variety of beans, nuts, healthy fats, and it works better with dairy.

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