Utah vs Feds vs Native Americans vs Ranchers in Bears Ears Land Grab

[presence]

[IMG]http://static01.********/images/2016/03/11/us/12utahweb1/12utahweb1-master675.jpg[/IMG]

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdo...-grab-attempt/

On Wednesday, Utah approved setting aside $4.5 million as the first payment toward the $14 million estimated to fund a lawsuit aimed at asserting state ownership of tens of millions of acres of federal land within Utah's borders.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/13/us...s-control.html

Today, the land known as Bears Ears — named for twin buttes that jut out over the horizon — has become something else altogether: a battleground in the fight over how much power Washington exerts over federally controlled Western landscapes.


At a moment when much of President Obama’s environmental agenda has been blocked by Congress and stalled in the courts, the president still has the power under the Antiquities Act of 1906 to create national monuments on federal lands with the stroke of a pen. A coalition of tribes, with support from conservation groups, is pushing for a new monument here in the red-rock deserts, arguing it would protect 1.9 million acres of culturally significant land from new mining and drilling and become a final major act of conservation for the administration.

To create a new monument out of Bears Ears “would be almost un-American,” Mr. Adams said. Val Dalton, a rancher who grazes cattle almost exclusively on federal land, said new federal protections “would put us out of business.”

[farreri]

Val Dalton, a rancher who grazes cattle almost exclusively on federal land, said new federal protections “would put us out of business.”

What's he doing grazing on government land in the first place. Can't he graze on his own land?

[presence]

What's he doing grazing on government land in the first place. Can't he graze on his own land?

What's the government doing holding land in the first place?

[farreri]

What's the government doing holding land in the first place?

Well that would cause him to really not be able to graze on government land which goes back to my original question, why isn't he grazing on his own land?

[phill4paul]

What's he doing grazing on government land in the first place. Can't he graze on his own land?

This isn't the east. It isn't grass land. It's scrub land. Meh, Kale is probably the central part of your diet anyway.

[dannno]

Well that would cause him to really not be able to graze on government land which goes back to my original question, why isn't he grazing on his own land?

Technically, it is his land because his family has likely been grazing on it for generations - maybe even before the Feds owned it - maybe even before the state owned it.

People in the west "put up" with the whole notion of public grazing lands because they didn't think they would be taken from them.. But over time they instituted grazing fees (taxes) and then eventually just tell them they can't graze their anymore.

That entire scenario doesn't jive with the concept of real property rights. Under real property rights, they would have owned the land all along, not the feds. Think of it as a 'slow theft'. A really slow one.

[presence]

Well that would cause him to really not be able to graze on government land which goes back to my original question, why isn't he grazing on his own land?

this is wide open land, millions of acres, that has been grazed without fencing by local ranchers from 1550 to 1934.

Then came the government.... here to fix everything:

licenses, permits, fees, regulations, inspections, cullings, and all the other wonderful things .gov does

[phill4paul]

Well that would cause him to really not be able to graze on government land which goes back to my original question, why isn't he grazing on his own land?

Because over generations the Fed opened territories, encouraged expansion, changed their mind, incorporated up to 80% of individual states then pulled the rug.

[Ender]

Technically, it is his land because his family has likely been grazing on it for generations - maybe even before the Feds owned it - maybe even before the state owned it.

People in the west "put up" with the whole notion of public grazing lands because they didn't think they would be taken from them.. But over time they instituted grazing fees (taxes) and then eventually just tell them they can't graze their anymore.

That entire scenario doesn't jive with the concept of real property rights. Under real property rights, they would have owned the land all along, not the feds. Think of it as a 'slow theft'. A really slow one.

THIS.

[farreri]

This isn't the east. It isn't grass land. It's scrub land.

So?

Meh, Kale is probably the central part of your diet anyway.

It's not, but even if it was, I would say why is that kale farmer farming on government land and not his own?

[phill4paul]

So?


It's not, but even if it was, I would say why is that kale farmer farming on government land and not his own?

What state are you from? Then lets discuss it.

[dannno]

farreri is vegetarian so they think that we need to destroy ecosystems and the environment by creating more farms to obtain food.

[Danke]

What's he doing grazing on government land in the first place. Can't he graze on his own land?

Can you show in the Constitution what kind of land the federal government can own?

[farreri]

What state are you from? Then lets discuss it.

Pick a state.

[farreri]

Can you show in the Constitution what kind of land the federal government can own?

Regardless of if the Feds, State, or any government entity can own land, the question still remains, why isn't he grazing on his own land?

[phill4paul]

Pick a state.

Excellent non-answer. You're good.

Give me a reason to give a $#@! where people herd cattle.

[farreri]

farreri is vegetarian so they think that we need to destroy ecosystems and the environment by creating more farms to obtain food.

I'm not, but ironically you were! Now please stop trolling.

[Danke]

Regardless of if the Feds, State, or any government entity can own land, the question still remains, why isn't he grazing on his own land?

Because the federal government claims to own most of the land out west? See Dannno's posts here.

[farreri]

Give me a reason to give a $#@! where people herd cattle.

If you don't give a $#@!, why are you responding in this thread?

[phill4paul]

If you don't give a $#@!, why are you responding in this thread?

Another post that does not answer my questions. pfft.

[farreri]

Because the federal government claims to own most of the land out west? See Dannno's posts here.

Regardless of the constitutionality of the gov owning the land, still doesn't answer why he can't graze on his own land.

[farreri]

Another post that does not answer my questions. pfft.

What can I say, I thought your questions were kind of stupid.

[phill4paul]

What can I say, I thought your questions were kind of stupid.

Ok. So sorry you lost a rep. bar because of this chosen obfuscation. See ya in the red?

[presence]

Regardless of the constitutionality of the gov owning the land, still doesn't answer why he can't graze on his own land.

cattle ranchers and sheep herders needed large tracts of land to feed their livestock,
not the smaller parcels they could claim through homestead policies

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/up...-the-west.html

[pcosmar]

What's he doing grazing on government land in the first place. Can't he graze on his own land?

It is not the government's land.

It is the peoples land..as "we the people'. it is used by many people. Ranchers included.
It is not and can not be "Federal Land". It is open range.. and it is in the States jurisdiction.

[pcosmar]

why isn't he grazing on his own land?

He is.

It is his land as one of "We the People".
He has a right to fair use of open range.

[Chester Copperpot]

I see the vegetarian, gay, pothead, pinko commie strikes again!

[RonPaulIsGreat]

We are the government, so that means you own the land!!! Why are people complaining about owning land. You should rejoice that you own a piece of land somewhere you didn't know about and don't have to maintain .

[farreri]

He is.

It is his land as one of "We the People".
He has a right to fair use of open range.

Sounds socialist.

[Dianne]

Can you show in the Constitution what kind of land the federal government can own?

Yeah, that's what I'm asking. They already own all our homes via Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.