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Thread: Socialism is NOT sinful

  1. #1

    Socialism is NOT sinful

    Good grief. Some people cannot discuss anything without injecting religion into. Let me preface this by saying that I do not agree with socialism simply because on a large scale it just doesn't work. But those who try to make socialism versus capitalism into some quasi religious struggle are very much off the mark. I know it's tempting. Communist countries (socialism with dictatorship), made atheism a centerpiece of their dogma. But prominent anarcho capitalist Ayn Rand was a vehement atheist who hated not just socialism but the idea of charity itself declaring that greed itself is good.

    But back to religion, since some feel the need to frame the debate that way. You see elements of socialism, the idea that goods should be distributed as people have need as opposed to gathered as people have ability, in the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the Old Testament in was compulsive, as in through force of law. (The law of Moses). Rich landowners were compelled by the law of Moses not to completely clear their crops so that poor Israelis and even immigrants could glean from their fields. Jesus' own disciples put this into practice by picking some grain from land owned by someone else and eating it. The only criticism levied against them was that they did it on Sabbath. Also debts were discharged every 7 years. And you weren't allowed not to lend to someone in need in the 7th year just because you knew the debt would be cancelled! What is that but "redistribution of wealth?" In the New Testament, the socialism was completely voluntary but far more extensive. Believers in Jerusalem often sold all of their possessions, gave the proceeds to the disciples, and those proceeds were divided "each according to his ability."

    Bible references:

    Socialism is not based on covetousness. It's based on false idealism. The idealism is that those who have should help those who have not. And even in the Old Testament you see elements of redistribution of wealth from the year of Jubilee where debts were wiped out or the gleaning system where wealthy farmers were required not to harvest every bit of grain possible so that the poor could pick up food for free. When Jesus' disciples walked through a field that someone else owned and picked an ate grain, that was a form of socialism. Socialism ultimately doesn't work as a basis for an economy. But to put religious significance on it as you are is borderline blasphemous.

    I do not agree with socialism because it is a failed economic policy. But the early Christian church was pure voluntary socialism. The idea behind socialism, everyman according to his need, comes straight from the book of Acts. When the disciples picked and ate grain in a field that was owned by someone else that was a form of socialism straight from the law of Moses. The year of Jubilee, where debts were wiped out, was a form of redistribution of wealth. Socialism is not based on greed. Socialism is based on idealism. Moses telling wealthy planters "Don't reap all your grain but leave some for the poor" was not based on greed.

    Leviticus 23:22 "'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.'"

    Acts 4:32-35 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

    Deuteronomy 15:1 "At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts.

    Now, is socialism on a national scale a good idea? Nope. Is forced socialism a good idea at all? Nope. The early church was far more generous to each other when they were sharing out of love in their hearts instead of doing it out of compulsion. Nothing should ultimately be by compulsion. But to call a system that was in ancient Israel "sinful" is just laughable.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    hmm...robbing Peter to pay Paul is a good thing?
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  4. #3
    Charity at the point of a gun isn't really charity.

  5. #4
    Socialism is as religion cleverly disguised.
    “[T]he enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.” (Heller, 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S.Ct., at 2822.)

    How long before "going liberal" replaces "going postal"?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    But to call a system that was in ancient Israel "sinful" is just laughable.
    The ancient Israelites were a stiff-necked people, sinful to the degree that the god of Moses wanted to wipe them out completely for their wickedness.

    On more than one occasion.

    http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...p?hs=1&q=stiff
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 02-09-2016 at 08:14 PM.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  7. #6
    Winner.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    Socialism is as religion cleverly disguised.
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Charity at the point of a gun isn't really charity.
    The law of Moses was enforced at the point of a rock, not a gun. Thankfully under the New Covenant we are neither to stone people because they are gay nor stone the for refusing to discharge debts on the 7th year.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #8
    Socialism is NOT sinful
    Only in implementation.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    hmm...robbing Peter to pay Paul is a good thing?
    Not everything that isn't sinful is good. My point is that a law saying "You must let poor people come on your land and pick your left over crops and you can't clean pick your crops" is by definition a violation of property rights and by definition a form of socialism.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #10
    I would argue that oppressing people and stealing their stuff if sinful. But not everyone believes in sin and moralities etc. However individual rights are impossible to logically argue against.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  13. #11
    The Law of Moses was only compulsive for those who were parties to the covenant. Outside of that kind of contractual arrangement, it would be a sin to compel someone to participate in socialism against their will.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    I would argue that oppressing people and stealing their stuff if sinful. But not everyone believes in sin and moralities etc. However individual rights are impossible to logically argue against.
    Were Jesus' disciples sinning when they went onto someone else's land and picked grain and ate it without permission?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Were Jesus' disciples sinning when they went onto someone else's land and picked grain and ate it without permission?
    I don't think it was without permission.

  16. #14
    There was a system of charity and welfare set up in the OT so the poor could gather enough food to feed their families. There was also a system of slavery in the OT that continued to the NT to give someone an opportunity to pay off debt. It was never intended to be permanent. The year of jubilee was when all slaves were freed and all debts forgiven. It was a personal system, and there was a lot of accountability built in.

    If you look at the prophets, you will see that part of God's anger was the maltreatment of the poor, widows, and orphans. It was not the government that was being judged. It was God's people. Unfortunately when the government demands a big chunk of my hard earned money and gives it to someone who is not truly poor, it creates a system whereby I do not have a lot of extra to give the truly poor. Most of what comes out of my check is part of a huge transfer of cash to the more wealthy in the system. Do the math. I have no say in how that money is spent, and there is no accountability built in the system.

    The reason the early church held all things common was not to force people to be equal. It was because Christianity was brand new and it was illegal. They met in secret. They were being persecuted and some were killed. It was the responsibility of believers to take care of member families who might have lost a head of household because of persecution. There was not much farming in the cities, so it wasn't like the poor could go glean food to feed themselves.

    Governments are given as means of justice. God's problem with governments is not that they exist, but that they fail to deliver justice. Government has become a self-perpetuating evil, and it promotes injustice through abortion, denying the poor a means to feed themselves, through the so-called justice system, and through the way it imports injustice through war.

    Socialism is a sin when governments and people demand a share of the pie that does not rightfully belong to them. We are supposed to be stewards of what God has given us. When a God-given wage is confiscated by the unjust in order to promote injustice, then we sin when we continue to be complacent when we have power to remove that government.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Not everything that isn't sinful is good. My point is that a law saying "You must let poor people come on your land and pick your left over crops and you can't clean pick your crops" is by definition a violation of property rights and by definition a form of socialism.
    Then it is up to the individual farmer to give, not forced by some man-made law. Good deeds are a two way street. If the people hungry volunteer to help the farmer to harvest his crop then working for their food is fair and just.

    2 Corinthians 9:7 - Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  18. #16
    The Mosaic law provided for charity. Farmers were required to leave the margins of their field unharvested so the poor could gather enough grain to feed themselves. This is what Jesus and the disciples were doing. That they did it on the Sabbath was a problem for the religious leaders, who were not doing what the law required of them with regard to caring for their own famiiies. In fact what those religious leaders were doing was telling their parents, "Oops, I had your support all ready to give you, but I saw a poor person and gave the money to them." In the meantime, they lived well on the offerings and were not living according to the Mosaic law.

    And the tax collectors were not paid a wage. They were told to collect a flat tax from everyone, and add their support on top of that. Kind of sounds like what our government does. People like the Obamas, the Clintons, and the Pelosis have gotten quite wealthy off what they a have confiscated from you and me. And Bernie has voted himself pay raises, too, however much he wants to carp about Wall Street and wealthy people. Pot, meet Kettle.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Then it is up to the individual farmer to give, not forced by some man-made law. Good deeds are a two way street. If the people hungry volunteer to help the farmer to harvest his crop then working for their food is fair and just.
    The law of Moses was not voluntary. You could be put to death for violating something as trivial as picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Nor was it "man made." Finally you are totally missing the point. I'm not saying that socialism is good. Just that it's not sinful.

    2 Corinthians 9:7 - Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
    Yep. That's the New Testament. You took it out of context though. You left out verse 6. "He that sews sparingly will reap sparingly. He who sews bountifully will reap bountifully." The idea of giving in the New Testament was not the "Will a man rob God? You have robbed me in tithes and offerings" you see in the Old Testament, but rather "Give as God has blessed you and as you wish Him to bless you."

    But again, you're missing the point. I'm not saying socialism is good. Even voluntary socialism has its problems as seen by the Greek widows complaining that they weren't being given as much as the Jewish widows which caused the apostles to institute the office of deacon. That was the first recorded case of affirmative actions as well. One of the deacons was named "Phillip" which was a Greek name.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I don't think it was without permission.
    According to the law of Moses no permission was required. So there is absolutely no reason to believe the disciples first asked permission before walking through the field and picking grain.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The law of Moses was not voluntary. You could be put to death for violating something as trivial as picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Nor was it "man made." Finally you are totally missing the point. I'm not saying that socialism is good. Just that it's not sinful.



    Yep. That's the New Testament. You took it out of context though. You left out verse 6. "He that sews sparingly will reap sparingly. He who sews bountifully will reap bountifully." The idea of giving in the New Testament was not the "Will a man rob God? You have robbed me in tithes and offerings" you see in the Old Testament, but rather "Give as God has blessed you and as you wish Him to bless you."

    But again, you're missing the point. I'm not saying socialism is good. Even voluntary socialism has its problems as seen by the Greek widows complaining that they weren't being given as much as the Jewish widows which caused the apostles to institute the office of deacon. That was the first recorded case of affirmative actions as well. One of the deacons was named "Phillip" which was a Greek name.
    Individually it is not sinful, collectively it is.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Now, is socialism on a national scale a good idea? Nope.
    Socialism on a national scale is a great idea, yet only when that nation is one whose members are all striving to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Only when the nation is composed of like-minded members, in unity of spirit and mind, and who live in complete renouncement of material possessions and the temporal pleasures of this world for the sake of the eternal Kingdom, can socialistic ideas prevail to the benefit of all. Such ideas work within the Church, when these baptized members are serious in following Christ and have voluntarily taken upon themselves their own cross in self-giving love and sacrifice. When the members are ready and willing to give even their very lives in addition to their worldly possessions for the sake of the other, then socialistic ideals can bring the fruits of salvation.

    This worked in the early Church, and even today it can in degrees within certain close-knit communities, but in this modern pluralistic, hyperindivisualistic, and materialistic 'post-Christian' world, it leads nations to tyranny, destruction and enslavement.

    Forced socialism is a construct and product of this corruptable world, and is the very antithesis of what Christian communal life is, which is voluntary and based on divine love through self-giving. It is only when one voluntarily carries the cross and allows themselves to be nailed upon it, do we follow Christ and enter into His Kingdom. If this or any nation was a nation full of truly faithful Christians, then socialistic ideas could bring forth good fruit, for indeed only through Christ can any idea bring forth good fruit.

    However, the reality is that in this fallen world, which is under the rule of the prince of darkness, socialism cannot work on a grand scale, on account of the weakness and passions of sinful men. That is why Christ told His disciples that there would always be the poor amongst us.

    We should therefore never confuse the State with the Church. For the one is grounded upon this fallen world which is passing away, and the other upon the eternal life-giving blood of the uncreated God.
    Last edited by TER; 02-09-2016 at 09:51 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    There was a system of charity and welfare set up in the OT so the poor could gather enough food to feed their families. There was also a system of slavery in the OT that continued to the NT to give someone an opportunity to pay off debt. It was never intended to be permanent. The year of jubilee was when all slaves were freed and all debts forgiven. It was a personal system, and there was a lot of accountability built in.
    Yep.

    If you look at the prophets, you will see that part of God's anger was the maltreatment of the poor, widows, and orphans. It was not the government that was being judged. It was God's people. Unfortunately when the government demands a big chunk of my hard earned money and gives it to someone who is not truly poor, it creates a system whereby I do not have a lot of extra to give the truly poor. Most of what comes out of my check is part of a huge transfer of cash to the more wealthy in the system. Do the math. I have no say in how that money is spent, and there is no accountability built in the system.
    The government demands a lot of money for a lot of not so good reasons. Giving it to people who aren't really poor is just one of them. Using it to build garbage weapons systems like the F-35 is another. (Bernie Sanders supports the F-35 by the way cause...jobs.) Accountability? Bwwaaaaahhhhaaaaa! The bigger the system the less the accountability. Nature of the beast.

    The reason the early church held all things common was not to force people to be equal. It was because Christianity was brand new and it was illegal. They met in secret. They were being persecuted and some were killed. It was the responsibility of believers to take care of member families who might have lost a head of household because of persecution. There was not much farming in the cities, so it wasn't like the poor could go glean food to feed themselves.
    Not so. They were being socialist before the persecution started. I do believe though that the Holy Spirit moved them to that direction because He knew that persecution would come and ultimately the destruction of Jerusalem. Those who sold their homes in Jerusalem around A.D. 35 were looking pretty smart by A.D. 75. Note that during this same period disciples in other cities were owning homes and running businesses.

    Governments are given as means of justice. God's problem with governments is not that they exist, but that they fail to deliver justice. Government has become a self-perpetuating evil, and it promotes injustice through abortion, denying the poor a means to feed themselves, through the so-called justice system, and through the way it imports injustice through war.
    Government is one way that man self organizes. Sadly such self organizing often becomes self serving. Annanias and Saphira tried to be self serving in the voluntary socialist system that was the early church. But the Holy Spirit is a tough auditor.

    Socialism is a sin when governments and people demand a share of the pie that does not rightfully belong to them. We are supposed to be stewards of what God has given us. When a God-given wage is confiscated by the unjust in order to promote injustice, then we sin when we continue to be complacent when we have power to remove that government.
    Okay. There's not just really good dividing line between what rightfully belongs to someone else and what doesn't. Even when conservatives talk about "proper role of government" such as defense, why should I have to pay for defense that I didn't ask for? That was the gripe behind the Whiskey Rebellion. The government, under George Washington, thought it needed to send the military into to fight the Indians on the frontier and demand the frontier farmers pay for it with a tax on whiskey. But nobody got the input of the farmers first. Maybe they were okay living with the Indians? Maybe they would have rather fought the Indians themselves or hired their own mercenaries? Oh...but it was all good because the taxation of the frontier farmers came with representation.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Individually it is not sinful, collectively it is.
    Question. Do you believe the law of Moses to be individual or collective? Hint. If you can't opt out of not being stoned for breaking it then it's collective.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  26. #23
    Depends on how we define "socialism" for discussion's sake. In the strictly economic sense, the OP is correct. Economics is value-free. So, we only deal with "is" WRT that. It's neither "good" nor "bad"/sinful or not from the economist's POV. It is when we get into praxaeology and ethics that we can define an economic system as "good" or "bad".
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Question. Do you believe the law of Moses to be individual or collective? Hint. If you can't opt out of not being stoned for breaking it then it's collective.
    The Old Law was insufficient, and while its formation and precepts were God-inspired, it was what was needed for that people at that time, yet still it fell far from the Kingdom of Heaven.

    It was incomplete and indeed insufficient, and for that reason Christ came, in order to establish a New Covenant based on the fulfilled Law which is self-giving, voluntary love.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  29. #25
    Hello TER. The problem is that as a system scales the chances of corruption grown exponentially. Annanias and Safira are a perfect example. Even on the relatively small scale of the early church corruption crept in. They were hoping to benefit from appearing to be fully committed to the communal system, and sharing in its benefits, while keeping back a portion for themselves. That's why Peter said "Wasn't the land yours before you sold it? Why lie about it?" To a lesser extent the unequal distribution of the goods to the Greek widows was a problem, but fixed through the institution of deacons.

    Once you get to a national scale you by definition have people involved outside of the church, unless this is a nation where church membership is a requirement. And even then one cannot control the heart by edict. (Annanias and Safira again).

    Here is my overarching point that is being missed, probably because the context of the conversation that spawned the thread is missing. Someone claimed that socialism is a sin because it stems from "selfishness." Nonsense. It can stem from selfishness but it doesn't have to. Moses was not being selfish when he commanded the gleaning system. And it was most certainly a command and not voluntary. I believe many, if not most, socialists are not acting from a position of "I want your money for myself" but rather "I want those poor unfortunates who don't have anything to be helped and I can't do it by myself." Nobel ideals. Doesn't work on a level outside 100% voluntary association because of corruption. And even in a system 100% voluntary association corruption can creep in. (Judas being over the poor fund and stealing from it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Socialism on a national scale is a great idea, yet only when that nation is one whose members are all striving to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Only when the nation is composed of like-minded members, in unity of spirit and mind, and who live in complete renouncement of material possessions and the temporal pleasures of this world for the sake of the eternal Kingdom, can socialistic ideas prevail to the benefit of all. Such ideals work within the Church, when these baptized members are serious in following Christ and have voluntarily taken upon themselves their own cross in self-giving love and sacrifice. When the members are ready and willing to give even their very lives in addition to their worldly possessions for the sake of the other, then socialistic ideals can bring the fruits of salvation.

    This worked in the early Church, and even today it can in degrees within certain close-knit communities, but in this modern pluralistic, hyperindivisualistic, and materialistic 'post-Christian' world, it leads nations to tyranny, destruction and enslavement.

    Forced socialism is a construct and product of this corruptable world, and is the very antithesis of what Christian communal life is, which is voluntary and based on divine love through self-giving. It is only when one voluntarily carries the cross and allows themselves to be nailed upon it, do we follow Christ and enter into His Kingdom. If this or any nation was a nation full of truly faithful Christians, then socialistic ideas could bring forth good fruit, for indeed only through Christ can any idea bring forth good fruit.

    However, the reality is that in this fallen world, which is under the rule of the prince of darkness, socialism cannot work on a grand scale, on account of the weakness and passions of sinful men. That is why Christ told His disciples that there would always be the poor amongst us.

    We should therefore never confuse the State with the Church. For the one is grounded upon this fallen world which is passing away, and the other upon the eternal life-giving blood of the uncreated God.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

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    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  30. #26
    @jmdrake: You are derailing your own thread. You can't defend government confiscation on the one hand and say government is only right when it confiscates money to buy only what you want on the other.

    Government was never meant to do what God's people are supposed to do.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Socialism on a national scale is a great idea, yet only when that nation is one whose members are all striving to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Only when the nation is composed of like-minded members, in unity of spirit and mind, and who live in complete renouncement of material possessions and the temporal pleasures of this world for the sake of the eternal Kingdom, can socialistic ideas prevail to the benefit of all. Such ideals work within the Church, when these baptized members are serious in following Christ and have voluntarily taken upon themselves their own cross in self-giving love and sacrifice. When the members are ready and willing to give even their very lives in addition to their worldly possessions for the sake of the other, then socialistic ideals can bring the fruits of salvation.

    This worked in the early Church, and even today it can in degrees within certain close-knit communities, but in this modern pluralistic, hyperindivisualistic, and materialistic 'post-Christian' world, it leads nations to tyranny, destruction and enslavement.

    Forced socialism is a construct and product of this corruptable world, and is the very antithesis of what Christian communal life is, which is voluntary and based on divine love through self-giving. It is only when one voluntarily carries the cross and allows themselves to be nailed upon it, do we follow Christ and enter into His Kingdom. If this or any nation was a nation full of truly faithful Christians, then socialistic ideas could bring forth good fruit, for indeed only through Christ can any idea bring forth good fruit.

    However, the reality is that in this fallen world, which is under the rule of the prince of darkness, socialism cannot work on a grand scale, on account of the weakness and passions of sinful men. That is why Christ told His disciples that there would always be the poor amongst us.

    We should therefore never confuse the State with the Church. For the one is grounded upon this fallen world which is passing away, and the other upon the eternal life-giving blood of the uncreated God.
    What you're describing is more like what the English meant when they spoke of "Commonwealth". "Socialism" is a secular, egalitarian system of economic thought invented in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

    Mises' treatise on Socialism: https://mises.org/sites/default/file...Analysis_3.pdf Pretty much the definitive book on the subject, AFAIK.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 02-09-2016 at 09:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Hello TER. The problem is that as a system scales the chances of corruption grown exponentially. Annanias and Safira are a perfect example. Even on the relatively small scale of the early church corruption crept in. They were hoping to benefit from appearing to be fully committed to the communal system, and sharing in its benefits, while keeping back a portion for themselves. That's why Peter said "Wasn't the land yours before you sold it? Why lie about it?" To a lesser extent the unequal distribution of the goods to the Greek widows was a problem, but fixed through the institution of deacons.

    Once you get to a national scale you by definition have people involved outside of the church, unless this is a nation where church membership is a requirement. And even then one cannot control the heart by edict. (Annanias and Safira again).

    Here is my overarching point that is being missed, probably because the context of the conversation that spawned the thread is missing. Someone claimed that socialism is a sin because it stems from "selfishness." Nonsense. It can stem from selfishness but it doesn't have to. Moses was not being selfish when he commanded the gleaning system. And it was most certainly a command and not voluntary. I believe many, if not most, socialists are not acting from a position of "I want your money for myself" but rather "I want those poor unfortunates who don't have anything to be helped and I can't do it by myself." Nobel ideals. Doesn't work on a level outside 100% voluntary association because of corruption. And even in a system 100% voluntary association corruption can creep in. (Judas being over the poor fund and stealing from it.)
    I am happy we are in agreement.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    What you're describing is more like what the English meant when they spoke of "Commonwealth". "Socialism" is a secular, egalitarian system of economic thought invented in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
    I agree, which is why I was careful to use the terms 'socialistic ideals' in some places and 'socialism' in others.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  34. #30

    Socialism is Sinful

    Jmdrake, I've already replied to another thread on your diatribe of "Socialism in the Bible," but let me reiterate here that the fundamental tenet of Socialism is the abolition of private property in exchange for its control by society (through civil means). Nowhere in Scripture does God promote that, plain and simple.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

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