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Thread: Most plausible interpration of "Natural Born"

  1. #1

    Most plausible interpration of "Natural Born"

    So this looks like something that would have to go to court because they would have to prove that they stopped doing citizen like things in Canada like voting. Otherwise, Rand was right there are lots of legal arguments that can and will be contested in court (the democrats aren't going to give the seat to the republicans).

    So here is the original meaning, that being said here is the arguments against it.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_v._Terrazas (1980)

    This case argues that they would of had to of renounced their citizenship, voting is analogous to citizenship, and there are claims that they registered to vote.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    So this looks like something that would have to go to court because they would have to prove that they stopped doing citizen like things in Canada like voting. Otherwise, Rand was right there are lots of legal arguments that can and will be contested in court (the democrats aren't going to give the seat to the republicans).

    So here is the original meaning, that being said here is the arguments against it.





    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_v._Terrazas (1980)

    This case argues that they would of had to of renounced their citizenship, voting is analogous to citizenship, and there are claims that they registered to vote.
    Don't find that very compelling at all since the idea that simply being born in America entitled you to citizenship didn't occur until after the Civil War. Citizenship by statute was the way everybody who was considered a citizen earned that status prior to the 14th Amendment.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulMall View Post
    Don't find that very compelling at all since the idea that simply being born in America entitled you to citizenship didn't occur until after the Civil War. Citizenship by statute was the way everybody who was considered a citizen earned that status prior to the 14th Amendment.
    Please enlighten me i wasn't aware that the language natural born originated after the Civil War, everyone that makes this argument that Ted Cruz is not naturally born in the same way the founding fathers intended (or basically they say that the founders didn't want foreign people to be president). If you are right then that is a complete lie, when did the natural born language get added in as a requirement to be president of the united states?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulMall View Post
    Don't find that very compelling at all since the idea that simply being born in America entitled you to citizenship didn't occur until after the Civil War. Citizenship by statute was the way everybody who was considered a citizen earned that status prior to the 14th Amendment.
    that statement requires evidence sir.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Please enlighten me i wasn't aware that the language natural born originated after the Civil War, everyone that makes this argument that Ted Cruz is not naturally born in the same way the founding fathers intended (or basically they say that the founders didn't want foreign people to be president). If you are right then that is a complete lie, when did the natural born language get added in as a requirement to be president of the united states?
    our founders were very much aware that they themselves did not meet the "Natural Born" criteria. that is why it says "or" and then a semicolon is used.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  7. #6
    By this reasoning Native Americans born on Indian lands, even though on US soil, are not natural born citizens since they derive their citizenship through statute and not through the Constitution.

    Since the 14th Amendment states that those born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction are born citizens, that would exclude Native Americans born on Indian lands. SCOTUS has ruled that is the case (see Elk v Wilkins) and Congress granted Native Americans citizenship through statute (see Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 and Nationality Act of 1940).

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    By this reasoning Native Americans born on Indian lands, even though on US soil, are not natural born citizens since they derive their citizenship through statute and not through the Constitution.

    Since the 14th Amendment states that those born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction are born citizens, that would exclude Native Americans born on Indian lands. SCOTUS has ruled that is the case (see Elk v Wilkins) and Congress granted Native Americans citizenship through statute (see Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 and Nationality Act of 1940).
    Well that explains why my grandfather disavowed his heritage due to it being publicly regarded as a second class designation.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    By this reasoning Native Americans born on Indian lands, even though on US soil, are not natural born citizens since they derive their citizenship through statute and not through the Constitution.

    Since the 14th Amendment states that those born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction are born citizens, that would exclude Native Americans born on Indian lands. SCOTUS has ruled that is the case (see Elk v Wilkins) and Congress granted Native Americans citizenship through statute (see Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 and Nationality Act of 1940).
    and by that reasoning we are ALL citizens of the Earth Mother Gaia!

    (insert picture of a unicorn $#@!ting rainbows)
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Well that explains why my grandfather disavowed his heritage due to it being publicly regarded as a second class designation.
    Cool story, bro.

    Do you agree with the fact that under your theory that only those granted citizenship by the Constitution, and not those who are citizens by statute, are natural born citizens? That would mean that no Native American member of a federally recognized tribe can be president, even if they are born within the United States to two US citizen parents, because they derive their citizenship from statute and not from the 14th Amendment.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    Cool story, bro.

    Do you agree with the fact that under your theory that only those granted citizenship by the Constitution, and not those who are citizens by statute, are natural born citizens? That would mean that no Native American member of a federally recognized tribe can be president, even if they are born within the United States to two US citizen parents, because they derive their citizenship from statute and not from the 14th Amendment.
    Cool story bro, I posted an article for discussion so I could hear other arguments against this article. My theory is that the democrats can and will challenge it. If you disagree then we will have to disagree on that alone. I'd say its a stretch to call Ted Cruz a native American just because he was born on the north American continent in the country of Canada, but that's an interesting argument I haven't heard before.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Cool story bro, I posted an article for discussion so I could hear other arguments against this article. My theory is that the democrats can and will challenge it. If you disagree then we will have to disagree on that alone. I'd say its a stretch to call Ted Cruz a native American just because he was born on the north American continent in the country of Canada, but that's an interesting argument I haven't heard before.
    I'm not saying Ted Cruz is a Native American, if he were then under your legal theory he would definitely not be qualified to be president, even if born within the United States to two US citizen parents because his citizenship would be derived from statute and not through the 14th Amendment.

    I'm just asking if you agree that Native American members of federally recognized tribes, even if born within the United States to two US citizen parents, are not natural born citizens because their citizenship is conferred through statute and not through the 14th Amendment?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    I'm not saying Ted Cruz is a Native American, if he were then under your legal theory he would definitely not be qualified to be president, even if born within the United States to two US citizen parents because his citizenship would be derived from statute and not through the 14th Amendment.

    I'm just asking if you agree that Native American members of federally recognized tribes, even if born within the United States to two US citizen parents, are not natural born citizens because their citizenship is conferred through statute and not through the 14th Amendment?
    I DIDNT WRITE THE ARTICLE I QUOTED AND LINKED IT. MY THEORY IS ONLY THAT DEMOCRATS WILL CHALLENGE IT QUIT ARGUING WITH PEOPLE WHO AREN'T ARGUING WITH YOU.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Please enlighten me i wasn't aware that the language natural born originated after the Civil War, everyone that makes this argument that Ted Cruz is not naturally born in the same way the founding fathers intended (or basically they say that the founders didn't want foreign people to be president). If you are right then that is a complete lie, when did the natural born language get added in as a requirement to be president of the united states?
    I did not say that the term originated after the war. I simply said that the cited article's interpretation of the term is obviously incorrect since every citizen prior to the Civil War was a citizen by statute and the article claims that such people can not be natural born citizens. If the author is correct, no one born prior to the Civil War was a natural born citizen and that is just nonsense.

    If you want to say that only born citizens born inside the United States qualify as "Natural Born" that is all well and good, but what the author is arguing makes no sense.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulMall View Post
    If you want to say that only born citizens born inside the United States qualify as "Natural Born" that is all well and good, but what the author is arguing makes no sense.
    But that isn't true at all. Native Americans are born within the United States, but they aren't natural born citizens.

  17. #15

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    LukeR

    Do you really think that the republicans that hate immigrants because they are "taking our jobs" are going to nominate Canadian/Cuban Ted?

    plsrespond.jpg
    I think the premise of your question is false. Republicans don't hate immigrants, they are just frustrated by a broken system and the fact this administration refused to enforce the laws on the books and secure the border.

    I think Republicans will vote for US CITIZEN Ted Cruz because he, along with Jeff Sessions, fought against amnesty.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    I think the premise of your question is false. Republicans don't hate immigrants, they are just frustrated by a broken system and the fact this administration refused to enforce the laws on the books and secure the border.

    I think Republicans will vote for US CITIZEN Ted Cruz because he, along with Jeff Sessions, fought against amnesty.
    Nah that's not a very nice way to answer a honest question that i begged you to answer. I didn't ask you if they would vote for Ted, I asked you if the RNC would nominate him, in your opinion?

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Nah that's not a very nice way to answer a honest question that i begged you to answer. I didn't ask you if they would vote for Ted, I asked you if the RNC would nominate him, in your opinion?
    The people of Iowa have spoken, and across the nation millions are joining the Cruz campaign because he is the only consistent conservative left in the race. The RNC will have no choice but to nominate him once the American people have had their voice heard.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    The people of Iowa have spoken, and across the nation millions are joining the Cruz campaign because he is the only consistent conservative left in the race. The RNC will have no choice but to nominate him once the American people have had their voice heard.
    The RNC won't like it, but Ted Cruz is about to take on the Washington cartel and win.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    The people of Iowa have spoken, and across the nation millions are joining the Cruz campaign because he is the only consistent conservative left in the race. The RNC will have no choice but to nominate him once the American people have had their voice heard.
    Since you didn't answer my question, this is my final response. I am just telling you this so you stop wasting your time.

    It was basically a statistical 3 way tie? He isn't going to win in NH either, I guess Sanatorium won last time right? The joke is there is no candidate that unites these factions, and Ted Cruz isn't going to trick us into supporting him anymore, Ron and Rand warned us. He lost his liberty advantage, not that Ted Cruz didn't do what he was paid to do and take out our campaign, but he won't last very long now. I wouldn't waste any of my money on him.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Really, the people Ted's campaign cheated, where it was basically a statistical 3 way tie?
    Ted Cruz won by more than 5000 votes, that's hardly a statistical tie or the result of any "cheating"

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Really, the people Ted's campaign cheated, where it was basically a statistical 3 way tie? He isn't going to win in NH either, I guess Sanatorium won last time right? The joke is there is no candidate that unites these factions, and Ted Cruz isn't going to trick us into supporting him anymore, Ron and Rand warned us. He lost his liberty advantage, not that Ted Cruz didn't do what he was paid to do and take out our campaign, but he won't last very long now. I wouldn't waste any of my money on him.
    It's only a matter of time until Congressman Justin Amash joins Liberty Leaders for Cruz.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    Ted Cruz won by more than 5000 votes, that's hardly a statistical tie or the result of any "cheating"
    What the $#@! do you mean, he had been poaching supporters by lying to people and the percentage points were 4% differences

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    What the $#@! do you mean, he had been poaching supporters by lying to people
    Where did Ted lie?

    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    and the percentage points were 4% differences
    Proof of that, please.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    Where did Ted lie?


    Proof of that, please.
    $#@! your proof do it yourself, I am not your bitch. Teds campaign went to Carson supporters saying he was dropping out and they have to vote for Ted to stop Rubio and teds campaign went to Paul supporters saying that they have to vote for Ted to stop Trump


    27.6
    24.3
    23.1

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    $#@! your proof do it yourself, I am not your bitch. Teds campaign went to Carson supporters saying he was dropping out and they have to vote for Ted to stop Rubio and teds campaign went to Paul supporters saying that they have to vote for Ted to stop Trump


    27.6
    24.3
    23.1
    Where your proof that the voters who changed their mind because of that were >4% of voters?

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    Where your proof that the voters who changed their mind because of that were >4% of voters?
    Where is your proof that you aren't paid by the Cruz campaign. That you are doing this completely voluntary and that you have a real job.

  32. #28
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Dr. Gutzman says Ted Cruz is ineligble to be president.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    Dr. Gutzman says Ted Cruz is ineligble to be president.
    Unless his specialty is resuscitating the Constitution, his opinion isn't worth much.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by LukeR View Post
    Unless his specialty is resuscitating the Constitution, his opinion isn't worth much.
    Says the guy that wants you to spend your free time and money on a candidate even though they only do it because its their job.

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