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Thread: The Problem With the Paleo Diet Argument

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Raven View Post
    But of course there are also those "dirty" vegans who will eat anything that isn't meat.
    I learned this too. When people talk about being vegan, you assume they all eat the same. Far from. I think most vegans eat a crap version of the diet, either too much oils and nut butters, or super low calorie versions by anorexic girls.

    I like avoiding the roller coaster carb thing too. Insanely hungry 3 hours after a bowl of rice... no thanks.
    Maybe that's because you had only one bowl of rice.

    Personally I feel like I should eat less meat, because I do really well on tons of vegetables, but I'll get there eventually.
    You are really going to roller coaster on a diet of a lot of vegetables being that they hardly have any calories in them, comparatively.



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  3. #32
    When I meet Paleo people I always say things like:

    Cave men didn't have toothpaste, either. Should I stop brushing my teeth?
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834



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  5. #33
    I just purchased a meat grinder last night on eBay. I plan to grind some of my rabbit meat with the bones for human and canine consumption. I would like to eat bone. I think there are vitamins and or nutrients in them.

    I have a couple of dogs. One is a Boxer. He is only like 5 years old but looks like he is 15. He was walking slow. Lying around most of the time and had trouble walking. A few months ago I cut back on his kibble and began giving him 2 whole fresh eggs from our free range chickens every evening with the shells. In the last week we cut the kibble out completely for him. He gets 4 whole raw eggs in the morning and a pound or so of raw meat in the evening. Tonight we added some green beans. He has lost weight and is ambulating much better and spending more time on his feet. The Doberman is reluctant to eat the raw meat. The boxer loves it. I have been giving store bought chicken because that is all I have at this time. I plan to raise many more rabbits as soon as it warms up a little. I love rabbit and would take it over beef, chicken, turkey or any other meat. I might try to get good at deboning the rabbit and then grinding the bones separate. Tried it once but struggled. This guy makes it look easy.


  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by willwash View Post
    When I meet Paleo people I always say things like:

    Cave men didn't have toothpaste, either. Should I stop brushing my teeth?
    What makes you think he didn't have "toothpaste" of some sort? Cavemen had toothbrushes; it doesn't seem to unreasonable to me to think he might have lubricated or freshened his breath with something. Hell, maybe he used something that naturally contains xylitol which kills the bacteria that causes cavities and aids in remineralizing teeth. just saying....

    edit: fwiw http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nt-evolve.html

  7. #35
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Raven View Post
    Funny you mention Mark Scisson. He recently was talking on Joe Rogan about that, basically agreeing. Or maybe it was Joe making that point. But of course there are also those "dirty" vegans who will eat anything that isn't meat.

    I like avoiding the roller coaster carb thing too. Insanely hungry 3 hours after a bowl of rice... no thanks. Personally I feel like I should eat less meat, because I do really well on tons of vegetables, but I'll get there eventually.
    dirty vegan
    .never heard that term before.. i know a vegan like that.. eats absolute garbage.. ice cream and phony vegan 'meat' loaded with enough chemicals to choke a horse and at the same time equates me with a child molestor because i eat hamburgers... some vegans are completely out of their minds.. especially when they start having serious health issues and blame themself for not being vegan enough.. its like trying to vote harder.

  8. #36
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    I just purchased a meat grinder last night on eBay. I plan to grind some of my rabbit meat with the bones for human and canine consumption. I would like to eat bone. I think there are vitamins and or nutrients in them.

    I have a couple of dogs. One is a Boxer. He is only like 5 years old but looks like he is 15. He was walking slow. Lying around most of the time and had trouble walking. A few months ago I cut back on his kibble and began giving him 2 whole fresh eggs from our free range chickens every evening with the shells. In the last week we cut the kibble out completely for him. He gets 4 whole raw eggs in the morning and a pound or so of raw meat in the evening. Tonight we added some green beans. He has lost weight and is ambulating much better and spending more time on his feet. The Doberman is reluctant to eat the raw meat. The boxer loves it. I have been giving store bought chicken because that is all I have at this time. I plan to raise many more rabbits as soon as it warms up a little. I love rabbit and would take it over beef, chicken, turkey or any other meat. I might try to get good at deboning the rabbit and then grinding the bones separate. Tried it once but struggled. This guy makes it look easy.

    May i suggest making bone broth... easy as pie

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    May i suggest making bone broth... easy as pie
    Yes I have made some bone broth. But I bought the grinder thinking that I could grind raw bones and meat with ease and store it frozen in precise quantity taking up less space than freezing the entire animal or pieces and have a different texture for different applications. Also I thought I could possibly grind several meats together to compliment them. If I could debone a rabbit as easily as this guy, I could also store compact boneless rabbit meat and grind the bones with another rabbit for the dogs or keep them separate as just another option.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    for the dogs
    I can agree there. Paleo is for the dogs!

  11. #39
    Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?
    I can't speak for Paleo people, but I personally eat a lot of protein (meat and non-meat) because that's the best proven way to build and maintain muscle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
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  14. #41
    ..
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-17-2016 at 10:15 AM.

  15. #42
    First of all, the eskimo comparison doesn't really fly. There are very few Eskimo's alive eating completely traditional diets, they have doritos and cigarettes and sodas just like all of us so any study or observations of modern day eskimos is right off the bat pretty suspect. Second of all, even traditional eskimo diets would be on the extreme side of something resembling the paleo diet. 90 plus percent of hunter-gatherer diets included much more plant material and more varied diets than people living on the arctic ocean, I would think that would be obviously apparent. Paleo people like to bring up Eskimo's precisely because their extreme diets disproves many beliefs about diet and nutrition. Some of the first arctic explorers to come in contact with these people came back and told people they could live a year off of only animals and people didn't even believe it possible. Furthermore, people in these arctic enviroments eating these extremely different diets than the modern western diet were lacking many of the problems we have today like diabetes, cancer etc. So with that being said, eat more meat, fat and a whole lot less sugar and carbohydrates but realize you shouldn't only eat whale 24/7
    "Look, the American people have chosen to have a fiat money standard because they want a welfare state. You cannot have a gold standard and a welfare state at the same time. You have to make the choice. We have made a decision as a society that we’ll be dealing with the welfare state." -Alan Greenspan

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I can't speak for Paleo people, but I personally eat a lot of protein (meat and non-meat) because that's the best proven way to build and maintain muscle.
    Actually steroids are and they are much more kind to animals.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by dbill27 View Post
    First of all, the eskimo comparison doesn't really fly. There are very few Eskimo's alive eating completely traditional diets, they have doritos and cigarettes and sodas just like all of us so any study or observations of modern day eskimos is right off the bat pretty suspect.
    Autopsies on very old Eskimos frozen in ice revealed mass amounts of atherosclerosis.

    Furthermore, people in these arctic enviroments eating these extremely different diets than the modern western diet were lacking many of the problems we have today like diabetes, cancer etc. So with that being said, eat more meat, fat and a whole lot less sugar and carbohydrates but realize you shouldn't only eat whale 24/7
    But they had HIGHER incidences of atherosclerosis/stroke. Is that any better?

  18. #45
    I'll ask my question again.

    Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    I'll ask my question again.

    Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?
    My dog's not strict Paleo. He loves bread and sometimes he eats doo doo (are dried up turds Paleo?).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
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    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    I'll ask my question again.

    Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?
    Bump

  21. #48
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Bump
    I dont have an answer for your question.. Im also not sure if length of digestive track is relevant. Im sure someone out there justifies a heavy meat diet because a long digestive track can break it down better..

    Anyways, its interesting that a gorilla in the wild will eat 5 GRAMS a day of vitamin c from natural sources... thats an incredible amount of food.. approximately 83 oranges a day...



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  23. #49
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    My dog's not strict Paleo. He loves bread and sometimes he eats doo doo (are dried up turds Paleo?).
    FWIW try some einkhorn wheat sometime or some sprouted grain breads... some good stuff IMO. im too lazy to make einkhorn bread so i usually just make pancakes or waffles... taste excellent..and the grains are very good for certain nutrients like magnesium

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    I dont have an answer for your question.. Im also not sure if length of digestive track is relevant. Im sure someone out there justifies a heavy meat diet because a long digestive track can break it down better..
    But predatory animals, like cats & dogs, have short to medium-long digestive tracks whereas plant-based animals have long ones like humans. Why would humans be some kind of exception?

    Anyways, its interesting that a gorilla in the wild will eat 5 GRAMS a day of vitamin c from natural sources... thats an incredible amount of food.. approximately 83 oranges a day...
    This brings up another great point against the paleo diet. Human bodies used to be able to make Vitamin C, but stopped because we got so much Vitamin C from food it was inefficient for our bodies to continue to have to make it. Cats & dogs both can make Vitamin C.

    Doesn't humans having long digestive tracks and unable to make Vitamin C on our own prove we need to follow a mostly plant diet?

  25. #51
    Btw, where did this notion come from that the "caveman" ate a meat-based diet? I'm assuming that's what started this whole paleo diet fad.

  26. #52
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    But predatory animals, like cats & dogs, have short to medium-long digestive tracks whereas plant-based animals have long ones like humans. Why would humans be some kind of exception?
    Again Im not sure if its a relevant comparison. Predatory animals also have forward looking eyes - stereoscopic vision. That fits dogs, cats, and humans too.. Someone else could say that justifies a carnivorous diet.

    This brings up another great point against the paleo diet. Human bodies used to be able to make Vitamin C, but stopped because we got so much Vitamin C from food it was inefficient for our bodies to continue to have to make it. Cats & dogs both can make Vitamin C.
    I dont think anybody knows what the reason is that our bodies dont make vitamin c. Ive read people guess it was a mutation. Maybe we never did.. But I dont think anybody can ever know for sure what happened.

    Doesn't humans having long digestive tracks and unable to make Vitamin C on our own prove we need to follow a mostly plant diet?
    Theres plenty of evidence that mostly plant based diets are healthy for people. I dont think theres any need to couple it with some other reason that in itself may have no merit... Theres no need.. Plants have a tremendous amount of nutrition.. the data speaks well for eating plants... Im not sure you understand paleo well either.. from my understanding there is no reason not to eat fruits and vegetables on a paleo type of diet. Its mainly avoiding processed foods and grains.
    Last edited by Chester Copperpot; 02-10-2016 at 01:34 AM.

  27. #53
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Btw, where did this notion come from that the "caveman" ate a meat-based diet? I'm assuming that's what started this whole paleo diet fad.
    i think its because people are in a rush to lose body fat so they figure go for low carb for fastest bodyfat loss. Some people do well with it.... They seem to lose their blood sugar issues/diabetes etc etc... different strokes for different folks

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Speaking of animals such as dogs, one part of the paleo theory that I've never heard explained is why they think humans with a very long digestive tracks should eat a diet closer related to canines with very short digestive tracks? Non-human apes have basically the same long digestive tracks as humans, but their diet is closer to the diets of herbivore animals who also have long digestive tracks. What's the rationale?
    There are some straight up disturbing videos on YouTube of chimpanzees ( genetically closest great ape) hunting and eating lesser primates/monkeys. They love to eat them and probably would more often if they were easier to catch.

    If I could embed the vids I would but you'll have search yourself

  29. #55
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by The Northbreather View Post
    There are some straight up disturbing videos on YouTube of chimpanzees ( genetically closest great ape) hunting and eating lesser primates/monkeys. They love to eat them and probably would more often if they were easier to catch.

    If I could embed the vids I would but you'll have search yourself
    they certainly hate humanss too... if i had to pick i think id feel safer with a gorilla than a chimpanzee

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    Again Im not sure if its a relevant comparison. Predatory animals also have forward looking eyes - stereoscopic vision. That fits dogs, cats, and humans too.. Someone else could say that justifies a carnivorous diet.
    All frugivore animals have forward looking eyes too and they all have much longer digestive tracks than predatory animals.

    I dont think anybody knows what the reason is that our bodies dont make vitamin c. Ive read people guess it was a mutation. Maybe we never did.. But I dont think anybody can ever know for sure what happened.
    Humans don't make Vitamin C. Fruit is high in Vitamin C. The rest of the great apes are frugivores (exception with gorillas who are more foliage eating, but still plant-based). Humans have virtually identical digestive systems as the rest of the great apes. Doesn't that pretty much say humans are supposed to be plant-based?

    Im not sure you understand paleo well either.. from my understanding there is no reason not to eat fruits and vegetables on a paleo type of diet. Its mainly avoiding processed foods and grains.
    Paleo advocates against high calorie sweet fruits and emphasis low sweet fruits like berries and the reason is paleo is just a modified low carb ketosis diet and too much fruit would keep you out of ketosis. The real point of the diet is to try to find a healthier way to eat lots of meat. Let's just be real.
    Last edited by farreri; 02-11-2016 at 01:34 PM.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    i think its because people are in a rush to lose body fat so they figure go for low carb for fastest bodyfat loss.
    We are in total agreement there!

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by The Northbreather View Post
    There are some straight up disturbing videos on YouTube of chimpanzees ( genetically closest great ape) hunting and eating lesser primates/monkeys. They love to eat them and probably would more often if they were easier to catch.
    Maybe there is a good reason nature made it hard for the great apes to be hunters. Look what's it's done to the health of humans:

    Leading Causes of Death: Heart Disease & Cancer
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ase-amp-Cancer

  34. #59
    I notice people who support paleo type diets usually report how much better they are doing on it and some science on why it is helping them.

    Usually vegetarian threads do little to support vegetarianism, but rather attack the other side with guilt, horror stories, or quasi-religious arguments. If your diet works well for you, great, sing its praises. However, telling people the diet that has helped them is no good doesn't work as well.

  35. #60
    //
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-21-2016 at 11:21 PM.

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