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Thread: 'The Property Clause' Article 4 Section 3 Cause 2 (Let the Records Show!)

  1. #1

    'The Property Clause' Article 4 Section 3 Cause 2 (Let the Records Show!)

    By now, we're all familiar with Article 1 Section 8
    severely restricting the Powers (all Article 1 Sec 8)
    and then in clause 17 specifically restricting WHAT the Federal Gov't can 'own'.

    Detractors (when they even BOTHER w/ the Constitution) use and point to
    the 'Property Clause' aka Article 4 Section 3 Clause 2 and misconstrue it (both now and historically)
    as to where in the Constitution the Federal Gov't was given permission to 'own' land.
    Article 4 Section 3 Clause 2
    The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.
    So here (let the records show)
    I post the Records of the Federal Convention concerning the precise development/wording by the crafters of the clause
    to better and further show WHAT THEY DID NOT want it to 'mean'.
    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found.../a4_3_2s1.html

    Records of the Federal Convention

    [2:321; Journal, 18 Aug.]

    The propositions are as follows

    To dispose of the unappropriated lands of the United States

    [2:458; Journal, 30 Aug.]

    It was moved and seconded to agree to the following proposition.

    Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to alter the claims of the United States or of the individual States to the western territory but all such claims may be examined into and decided upon by the supreme Court of the United States

    It was moved and seconded to postpone the last proposition in order to take up the following.

    The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States: and nothing in this Constitution contained shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the United States or of any particular State

    It was moved and seconded to add the following clause to the last proposition

    "But all such claims may be examined into and decided upon by the Supreme Court of the United States"

    which passed in the negative [Ayes--2; noes--8.]

    On the question to agree to the following proposition

    "The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States: and nothing in this Constitution contained shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the United States or of any particular State"

    it passed in the affirmative

    [2:464; Madison, 30 Aug.]

    It was moved by Mr. L. Martin to postpone the substituted article, in order to take up the following.

    "The Legislature of the U-- S-- shall have power to erect New States within as well as without the territory claimed by the several States or either of them, and admit the same into the Union: provided that nothing in this constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U-- S--. to vacant lands ceded to them by the late treaty of peace-- which passed in the negative: N. J. Del. & Md. only ay.

    On the question to agree to Mr. Govr. Morris's substituted article as amended in the words following,

    "New States may be admitted by the Legislature into the Union: but no new State shall be hereafter formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of the present States without the consent of the Legislature of such State as well as of the General Legislature"

    N. H. ay. Mas. ay. Ct. ay. N. J-- no-- Pa. ay. Del. no. Md. no. Va. ay. N-- C. ay-- S. C-- ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes--8; noes--3.]

    Mr. Dickinson moved to add the following clause to the last--

    "Nor shall any State be formed by the junction of two or more States or parts thereof, without the consent of the Legislatures of such States, as well as of the Legislature of the U. States". which was agreed to without a count of the Votes.

    Mr Carrol moved to add--"Provided nevertheless that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the U. S. to vacant lands ceded to them by the Treaty of peace". This he said might be understood as relating to lands not claimed by any particular States. but he had in view also some of the claims of particular States.

    Mr. Wilson was agst. the motion. There was nothing in the Constitution affecting one way or the other the claims of the U. S. & it was best to insert nothing, leaving every thing on that litigated subject in statu quo.

    Mr. Madison considered the claim of the U. S. as in fact favored by the jurisdiction of the Judicial power of the U-- S-- over controversies to which they should be parties. He thought it best on the whole to be silent on the subject. He did not view the proviso of Mr. Carrol as dangerous; but to make it neutral and fair, it ought to go farther & declare that the claims of particular States also should not be affected.

    Mr. Sherman thought the proviso harmless, especially with the addition suggested by Mr. Madison in favor of the claims of particular States.

    Mr. Baldwin did not wish any undue advantage to be given to Georgia. He thought the proviso proper with the addition proposed. It should be remembered that if Georgia has gained much by the Cession in the Treaty of peace, she was in danger during the war, of a Uti possidetis.

    Mr. Rutlidge thought it wrong to insert a proviso where there was nothing which it could restrain, or on which it could operate.

    Mr. Carrol withdrew his motion and moved the following,

    "Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to alter the claims of the U. S. or of the individual States to the Western territory, but all such claims shall be examined into & decided upon, by the Supreme Court of the U. States."

    Mr Govr Morris moved to postpone this in order to take up the following. "The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the U. States; and nothing in this constitution contained, shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the U-- S-- or of any particular State,"--The postponemt. agd. to nem. con.

    Mr. L. Martin moved to amend the proposition of Mr Govr Morris by adding--"But all such claims may be examined into & decided upon by the supreme Court of the U-- States".

    Mr. Govr. Morris. this is unnecessary, as all suits to which the U. S-- are parties-- are already to be decided by the Supreme Court.

    Mr. L. Martin, it is proper in order to remove all doubts on this point.

    Question on Mr. L-- Martin's amendatory motion

    N-- H-- no. Mas-- no. Ct. no. N. J. ay. Pa. no. Del. no. Md. ay. Va. no--States not farther called the negatives being sufficient & the point given up.

    The Motion of Mr. Govr. Morris was then agreed to, Md. alone dissenting.

    [2:578, 602; Committee of Style]

    The Legislature shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States: and nothing in this Constitution contained shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims either of the United States or of any particular State.

    . . . . .

    The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States: and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.
    Last edited by goldenequity; 02-12-2016 at 06:22 AM.



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  3. #2
    When TJ bought Louisiana from Napoleon, did he buy it for the Federal government?

    BTW, who did Napoleon buy it from?

    The poor ignorant Native Americans, living there, probably didn't even know Napoleon and that he owned them.
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 02-02-2016 at 03:02 PM.

  4. #3
    One point I see that seems not to get enough emphasis, because I think it stands on a firm basis without needing to resort to a convoluted argument, is that whatever land the federal government may own, it can't be the case that this could ever be for uses that go outside the constitutionally enumerated functions of the federal government. There can't be federal wildlife refuges and parks, for example.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenequity View Post
    By now, we're all familiar with Article 1 Section 8
    severely restricting the Powers (all Article 1 Sec 8)
    and then in clause 17 specifically restricting WHAT the Federal Gov't can 'own'.
    All I.8.17 does is to give Congress exclusive legislative jurisdiction over certain areas. There's nothing restricting what the federal government can own. In particular, there's absolutely nothing that restricts the federal government from acquiring land by treaty, something that governments had been doing for millennia.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    One point I see that seems not to get enough emphasis, because I think it stands on a firm basis without needing to resort to a convoluted argument, is that whatever land the federal government may own, it can't be the case that this could ever be for uses that go outside the constitutionally enumerated functions of the federal government. There can't be federal wildlife refuges and parks, for example.
    But IV.3.2 says Congress can pretty much do whatever it wants with federal territories, and it isn't restricted to the uses in I.8.17.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    All I.8.17 does is to give Congress exclusive legislative jurisdiction over certain areas. There's nothing restricting what the federal government can own. In particular, there's absolutely nothing that restricts the federal government from acquiring land by treaty, something that governments had been doing for millennia.
    The only powers the federal government has is what is enumerated. If it isn't in there- it can't be done.

    Article 4, Section 3 deals with territories(lands outside of states) and federal property(land inside states the fed own which is restricted to basically DC, and forts and ports- as listed in article 1,section 8)
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    But IV.3.2 says Congress can pretty much do whatever it wants with federal territories, and it isn't restricted to the uses in I.8.17.
    territories are lands outside of states. I.8.17 deals with fed land holdings in states.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    But IV.3.2 says Congress can pretty much do whatever it wants with federal territories, and it isn't restricted to the uses in I.8.17.
    That's ridiculous. The 10th Amendment prohibits that.

    If the land is being used for the execution of the federal government's constitutionally enumerated duties, and the federal government owns it, then they're the ones who control what goes on there. But this isn't a license to go outside those duties. If the federal government owns the land so that they can use it for unconstitutional uses, then the federal government has no right to own it at all.

    You might as well say that IV.3.2 empowers the federal government to subject people to double jeopardy or cruel and unusual punishments, as long as they do so on land that they own.
    Last edited by erowe1; 02-02-2016 at 11:52 AM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    But IV.3.2 says Congress can pretty much do whatever it wants with federal territories, and it isn't restricted to the uses in I.8.17.
    NO,, Guns and the very apparent willingness to use them is the reason they get away with it.

    you see,, they are quite willing to kill you. and have proven repeatedly that they will kill any resistance.

    Until others are willing to do the same..nothing changes.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #10
    Perhaps the confusion is in the terms-

    Territory is land outside of a recognized State of the union. Guam, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, etc.

    The states at the time of 1788 constitution were free and independent. The states and its people owned ALL the land. When creating the central government they purposefully listed only the things the states would allow the federal government to own in their borders.

    If people on this site are this historically ignorant, we are indeed doom. Hermitage awaits me, going Gault and leaving this collapse to the stupid $#@!s.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    All I.8.17 does is to give Congress exclusive legislative jurisdiction over certain areas. There's nothing restricting what the federal government can own. In particular, there's absolutely nothing that restricts the federal government from acquiring land by treaty, something that governments had been doing for millennia.
    No, that is singular, over only a single 10-square mile area as the Seat of the federal government--Washington D.C..
    No, the U.S. Constitution in itself does so through its "declaratory and restrictive clauses".
    No, the clause stipulates for the land to be "purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state".
    No, the clause further stipulates that the land be for "the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings"--which would carry though the spirit of the U.S. Constitution as by the necessity in positive interests of its contextually enumerated powers.
    No, further see Amendments IX and X.
    And, still no, the USSC has found time and time again that powers of the federal government are not unlimited and boundless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    But IV.3.2 says Congress can pretty much do whatever it wants with federal territories, and it isn't restricted to the uses in I.8.17.
    Negative, the federal government is still bound by its constitutional limits. It cannot for example use federal territory to transport in Americans in order to then deny them Creator granted rights, or use federal territories to conduct otherwise unconstitutional acts, such as spying on Americans by routing digital connections through those federal territories, be it wireless communications, telephone calls, etc.
    Last edited by Weston White; 02-02-2016 at 11:58 AM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    The only powers the federal government has is what is enumerated. If it isn't in there- it can't be done.
    THIS.

    Good gravy this country is effing twisted. On one hand, the idiots say, "if it ain't in the bill of rights, it ain't a right", and on the other, "the fedgov can do whatever they want if not expressly forbidden by the constitution."
    I guess civics class ain't what it used to be.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    THIS.

    Good gravy this country is effing twisted. On one hand, the idiots say, "if it ain't in the bill of rights, it ain't a right", and on the other, "the fedgov can do whatever they want if not expressly forbidden by the constitution."
    I guess civics class ain't what it used to be.
    THIS!
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    NO,, Guns and the very apparent willingness to use them is the reason they get away with it.

    you see,, they are quite willing to kill you. and have proven repeatedly that they will kill any resistance.

    Until others are willing to do the same..nothing changes.
    He who hath the biggest guns and can write themselves to legally use them will win the argument every time. The leviathan was released long before any of us were around. Just ask the Indians.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    THIS.

    Good gravy this country is effing twisted. On one hand, the idiots say, "if it ain't in the bill of rights, it ain't a right", and on the other, "the fedgov can do whatever they want if not expressly forbidden by the constitution."
    I guess civics class ain't what it used to be.
    Odds are, if your civics class was in a government school, it was just more BS garbage.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That's ridiculous. The 10th Amendment prohibits that.
    The 10th doesn't apply because of the specific power granted to Congress under IV.3.2.

    You might as well say that IV.3.2 empowers the federal government to subject people to double jeopardy or cruel and unusual punishments, as long as they do so on land that they own.
    That has nothing to do with the issue of whether Congress' use of territories is restricted to those set forth in I.8.17. I have previously pointed out that if this were so, IV.3.2 would be unnecessary. The affirmative grant of power under IV.3.2 must mean something independent of the power granted in I.8.17.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    All I.8.17 does is to give Congress exclusive legislative jurisdiction over certain areas. There's nothing restricting what the federal government can own.
    Sure, the Enclave Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 17) is about governmental jurisdiction. Fine. In fact, the federal government can have an enclave in which much of the territory is titled to private parties (like Washington, D.C.) and federal rather than state jurisdiction is supreme.
    But:
    Enclaves may be held only for enumerated purposes (as signaled by the use of the 18th century legal term “needful”).
    Also, State consent to creation of an enclave is required, and the consent can be conditional upon the federal government honoring particular terms.
    A 750,000 acre Yosemite 'enclave' is not what the Founders had in mind.

    Non-enclave land owned by the federal government is held under the Property Clause (Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2), and MUST be held only for enumerated purposes. Grazing, for example, is not an enumerated purpose.
    See where this is going?
    To argue anything else is distortion and shilling.

    In particular, there's absolutely nothing that restricts the federal government from acquiring land by treaty, something that governments had been doing for millennia.
    Treaty power was given only to enable the central government to acquire Territory
    to be held for it's enumerated purposes ( & very limited/NOT EXPANDED implied powers such as highways ('post roads')/Commerce and 'Necessary & Proper' (lighthouses etc.)
    or (as was done)
    DISPOSAL: for further disposition to the States or auction as private property to bidders or perpetual trusts (environmental, heritage, etc.)
    The treaty powers granted no new nor expansion of the enumerated purposes
    nor granted any new powers to 'hold' and 'manage'.

    NO plenary power to hold land, only to dispose.

    A general power to hold is just not in there.
    Last edited by goldenequity; 02-02-2016 at 02:47 PM.

  21. #18
    Good discussion of the scope of the Property Clause:

    The federal government owns or controls about thirty percent of the land in the United States. These holdings include national parks, national forests, recreation areas, wildlife refuges, vast tracts of range and wasteland managed by the Bureau of Land Management, reservations held in trust for Native American tribes, military bases, and ordinary federal buildings and installations. Although federal property can be found in every state, the largest concentrations are in the west, where, for example, the federal government owns over eighty percent of the land within Nevada.

    The primary constitutional authority for the management and control of this vast real-estate empire is the Property Clause. The exact scope of this clause has long been a matter of debate. Broadly speaking, three different theories have been advanced.

    The narrowest conception, which can be called the proprietary theory, maintains that the Property Clause simply allows Congress to act as an ordinary owner of land. It can set policy regarding whether such lands will be sold or retained and, if they are retained, who may enter these lands and for what purposes. Under this conception, the clause confers no political sovereignty over federal landholdings. Unless one of the enumerated powers of Article I applies, such as the power to raise armies or establish a post office, political sovereignty over federal lands remains with the several states in which the land is located.

    The broadest conception, which can be called the police-power theory, regards the clause as conferring not only the powers of ownership but also general sovereign authority to regulate private conduct that occurs on federal land or that affects federal land. In default of any federal rule, state law applies. But if Congress determines that a federal rule "respecting" federal land is "needful," it may adopt federal legislation that supersedes state law. Thus, the Property Clause gives Congress the authority to adopt any type of legislation for federal lands, including codes of criminal law, family law, and exemptions from state taxation for persons residing on federal lands.

    Although most commentators have polarized around the proprietary and police-power theories, there is also an intermediate conception of the Property Clause, which can be labeled the protective theory. This conception would go beyond the proprietary theory in regarding the clause as a partial source of sovereign authority. But it would stop short of the police-power theory by limiting that authority to legislation designed to protect the proprietary interests of the United States. Under this intermediate conception, for example, the clause would permit Congress to pass federal legislation regulating the sale of federal land, protecting federal land from trespasses and nuisances, or exempting federal land from state taxation. On the other hand, the clause would not permit Congress to enact a general code of criminal law or family law, nor would it permit Congress to exempt persons residing on federal land from general rules of state taxation.

    It is not certain which of these three theories corresponds with the original understanding of the Framers, inasmuch as the debates from the Constitutional Convention and the ratification process have little to say about the Property Clause. One clue is provided by the structure of the Constitution. Article I, which sets forth the enumerated powers of Congress, includes a specific grant of power over the governance of federal property. Article I, Section 8, Clause 17, known as the Enclave Clause, is plainly a grant of sovereign authority—indeed, exclusive sovereign authority—over the District of Columbia and other federal enclaves acquired with the consent of the state in which they are located.

    Article I is the place where one would expect to find a grant of power to Congress to exercise political sovereignty over federal lands. Article IV, in contrast, which generally deals with issues of state-to-state relations (i.e., full faith and credit, privileges and immunities, extradition, repatriation of slaves, creation of new states, protection of states against invasion) would be an odd place to put such a power. Moreover, it is inconsistent with the careful drafting of the Constitution to assume that the Framers included two overlapping grants of sovereign political authority over federal lands. These structural considerations make it doubtful that the broad police-power theory is consistent with the original understanding.

    Another important piece of evidence is the Northwest Ordinance, which Congress, under the Articles of Confederation, enacted as the Constitutional Convention was meeting, and which the First Congress reenacted after the Constitution was ratified. This statute established the territorial government for the land comprising what is today the states of Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin. James Madison and other leaders at the Convention thought that the Articles of Confederation did not contain an adequate source of power to sustain the Northwest Ordinance. The Property Clause was designed to remedy that defect. This suggests that the Framers intended the Property Clause to be broad enough at least to constitutionalize the provisions of the Northwest Ordinance.

    The Northwest Ordinance included a number of provisions respecting the governance of the new territory that would have to be described as pure police-power measures. These include clauses preserving the freedom of religion, prohibiting uncompensated takings of property, and outlawing slavery. Other provisions of the Ordinance addressed the status of federal land once new states were formed from the territory and admitted to the Union. Such states were prospectively prohibited from interfering with the disposal of lands by the United States or with regulations adopted by Congress to secure title to bona fide purchasers, and they were barred from imposing any tax on federal lands.

    Taking the structural and historical evidence together, we can infer what may plausibly have been the original understanding of the Property Clause. The Property Clause authorized Congress to exercise a general police power within the territories before they were formed into states. Once states were admitted to the union, however, Congress could exercise full police powers over federal land located in a state only in accordance with the Enclave Clause, that is, only when the land was acquired with the consent of the state in question. As to what "needful Rules and Regulations" Congress could enact respecting federal lands in a state not located in an enclave, the Northwest Ordinance suggests that at least some preemptive federal legislation was contemplated, but only if designed to protect the proprietary interests of the United States. In short, the Framers intended that the police-power theory would apply to federal land located in territories, but that the protective theory would apply to non-enclave federal land located in states.

    A leading nineteenth-century exposition of the constitutional authority of the federal government over federal lands, Fort Leavenworth Railroad Co. v. Lowe (1885), is generally consistent with this conclusion. There, Justice Stephen J. Field wrote that the authority of the federal government over territories is "necessarily paramount." But once a territory is organized as a state and admitted to the union on equal footing with other states, the state government assumes general sovereignty over federal lands, and the federal government has the rights only of an "individual proprietor." The federal government can exercise rights of general sovereignty over property only if there has been a formal cession of sovereignty by the state under the Enclave Clause. Justice Field qualified this vision of separated sovereignty, however, by noting that if the federal government acquires land outside the Enclave Clause, any federal forts, buildings, or other installations erected on such land "will be free from any such interference and jurisdiction of the State as would destroy or impair their effective use for the purposes designed."

    The judicial vision of how much power the Property Clause confers on the federal government has hardly remained constant. To the contrary, it has evolved significantly over time. In the first half of the nineteenth century, the clause was understood to be primarily a source of authority for establishing territorial governments. Once new states were admitted to the Union, the federal government became a mere trustee of any remaining federal lands, holding and protecting them, pending their sale to private persons. Lessee of Pollard v. Hagan (1845). With the infamous decision of Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) the Court went further, holding that the Property Clause does not permit the exercise of police powers by the federal government in territory acquired after the Founding, and in particular that it does not permit the federal government to prohibit slavery in such territory. Dred Scott v. Sandford. Because the Northwest Ordinance had included a similar prohibition, and the Property Clause was designed to constitutionalize the Northwest Ordinance, Dred Scott is contrary to the original understanding in this respect.

    By the end of the nineteenth century, the interpretation of the clause shifted decisively toward the protective theory, as intimated in Fort Leavenworth. In one pivotal decision, the Court held that Congress could prohibit persons from putting up fences on private land if this would block access to public lands. Camfield v. United States (1897). The Court said:

    "While we do not undertake to say that Congress has the unlimited power to legislate against nuisances within a State, which it would have within a Territory, we do not think the admission of a Territory as a State deprives it of the power of legislating for the protection of the public lands, though it may thereby involve the exercise of what is ordinarily known as the police power, so long as such power is directed solely to its own protection. A different rule would place the public domain of the United States completely at the mercy of state legislation."

    Shortly thereafter, the Court upheld the reservation of vast tracts of land such as national forests, indicating that these lands were held in trust for the people of the whole country, and that it was for Congress, not the courts, to say how that trust should be administered. Light v. United States (1911).

    The leading modern decision, Kleppe v. New Mexico (1976), reflects a further evolution in judicial understanding, as it in effect embraces the full-blown police-power theory. At issue was the constitutionality of the Wild, Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act, which prohibits capturing, killing, or harassing wild horses and burros that range on public lands. Writing for the Court, Justice Thurgood Marshall specifically rejected the contention that the Property Clause includes only "(1) the power to dispose of and make incidental rules regarding the use of federal property; and (2) the power to protect federal property." He concluded that "Congress exercises the powers both of a proprietor and of a legislature over the public domain." Thus, without regard to whether wild animals are the property of the United States, or whether the act could be justified as a form of protection of the public lands, Congress was held to have sufficient power under the Property Clause to adopt regulatory legislation protecting wild animals that enter upon federal lands.

    To date, Congress has not attempted to exploit the new "enumerated power" conferred by the Court in Kleppe v. New Mexico. Although one can imagine how Kleppe v. New Mexico could be elaborated in new ways, any effort to use the Property Clause to sustain legislation that goes beyond protecting federal proprietary interests would seemingly be inconsistent with the original design of the Constitution.

    http://www.heritage.org/constitution...roperty-clause
    The power of Congress to hold federal territories indefinitely was stated in the Light case referred to above:

    It is contended, however, that Congress cannot constitutionally withdraw large bodies of land from settlement without the consent of the state where it is located; and it is then argued that the act of 1891 [26 Stat. at L. 1103, chap. 561, U. S. Comp. Stat. 1901, p. 1537], providing for the establishment of reservations, was void, so that what is nominally a reserve is, in law, to be treated as open and uninclosed land, as to which there still exists the implied license that it may be used for grazing purposes. But 'the nation is an owner, and has made Congress the principal agent to dispose of its property. . . . Congress is the body to which is given the power to determine the conditions upon which the public lands shall be disposed of.' Butte City Water Co. v. Baker, 196 U.S. 126 , 49 L. ed. 412, 25 Sup. Ct. Rep. 211. 'The government has, with respect to its own lands, the rights of an ordinary proprietor to maintain its possession and to prosecute trespassers. It may deal with such lands precisely as a private individual may deal with his farming property. It may sell or withhold them from sale.' Canfield v. United States, 167 U.S. 524 , 42 L. ed. 262, 17 Sup. Ct. Rep. 864. And if it may withhold from sale and settlement, it may also, as an owner, object to its property being used for grazing purposes, for 'the government is charged with the duty and clothed with the power to protect the public domain from trespass and unlawful appropriation.' United States v. Beebe, 127 U.S. 342 , 32 L. ed. 123, 8 Sup. Ct. Rep. 1083

    The United States can prohibit absolutely or fix the terms on which its property may be used. As it can withold or reserve the land, it can do so indefinitely. Stearns v. Minnesota, 179 U.S. 243 , 45 L. ed. 173, 21 Sup. Ct. Rep. 73. It is true that the 'United States do not and cannot hold property as a monarch may, for private or personal purposes.' Van Brocklin v. Anderson (Van Brocklin v. Tennessee), 117 U.S. 158 , 29 L. ed. 847, 6 Sup. Ct. Rep. 670. But that does not lead to the conclusion that it is without the rights incident to ownership, for the Constitution declares , 3, art. 4, that 'Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or the property belonging to the United States.' 'The full scope of this paragraph has never been definitely settled. Primarily, at least, it is a grant of power to the United States of control over its property.' Kansas v. Colorado, 206 U.S. 89 , 51 L. ed. 971, 27 Sup. Ct. Rep. 655.
    'All the public lands of the nation are held in trust for the people of the whole country.' United States v. Trinidad Coal & Coking Co. 137 U.S. 160 , 34 L. ed. 640, 11 Sup. Ct. Rep. 57. And it is not for the courts to say how that trust shall be administered. That is for Congress to determine. The courts cannot compel it to set aside the lands for settlement, or to suffer them to be used for agricultural or grazing purposes, nor interfere when, in the exercise of its discretion, Congress establishes a forest reserve for what it decides to be national and public purposes. In the same way and in the exercise of the same trust it may disestablish a reserve, and devote the property to some other national and public purpose. These are rights incident to proprietorship, to say nothing of the power of the United States as a sovereign over the property belonging to it. (emphasis added)

  22. #19
    nope.
    You can take your case law and stuff it.
    It's nothing more than documenting the gradual erosion of Original Intent
    of which most ALL of us are well aware.

    The truth is, the disposal of these lands SHOULD have been accomplished YEARS ago.

    The Congress of the 1870's KNEW it and gave it their best attempt with the Homestead Act and the Mining Law Act.
    It simply didn't work.

    By the time of T. Roosevelt it was all about how to distort their obligations, grow their power, and hold on to assets
    that belonged in the HANDS of the people... NOT 'holding it FOR them'.
    2 COMPLETELY different things.

    ==============

    You sir are simply a shill hanging out
    on a thesis forum since 2012 defending an anti-thesis.

    I'm not going to 'feign' polite to encourage your game.
    You can lick the boots of your coming masters.
    You disgust most of us... and I would include Lavoy among us.

    May your deceptions plague you to your grave.
    Cheers,
    G.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Good discussion of the scope of the Property Clause:



    The power of Congress to hold federal territories indefinitely was stated in the Light case referred to above:
    The Light case. You mean the one in 1911? Over a century after the Constitution was ratified?

    What that good discussion of the property clause failed to do at any point was to provide constitutional justification for the owning of that land to begin with. It was all about the question of what kind of control could be exercised over what goes on in it.

    Where does the Constitution grant the federal government the power to have national parks, national forests, recreation areas, or wildlife refuges?

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenequity View Post
    The truth is, the disposal of these lands SHOULD have been accomplished YEARS ago.
    The Constitution doesn't specify a time limit on holding federal property. Just the opposite: IV.3.2 explicitly leaves the uses of federal property up to Congress. There is no requirement that it be used for I.8.17 purposes; that it be used to form States to be admitted; or that it be auctioned off or otherwise sold to private interests.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    What that good discussion of the property clause failed to do at any point was to provide constitutional justification for the owning of that land to begin with.
    Try the Treaty Power. It's inconceivable that the Founders intended to deny the government of the United States a power exercised by every other government in history -- that of acquiring land by treaty. All you need to do is look at the Louisiana Purchase, which occurred a mere 16 years after the ratification of the Constitution. Although there were those who thought it unconstitutional, it's noteworthy that Madison wasn't one of them.



    Where does the Constitution grant the federal government the power to have national parks, national forests, recreation areas, or wildlife refuges?
    IV.3.2.

  26. #23
    Wow, pieces of paper have power! lol
    "One thing my years in Washington taught me is that most politicians are followers, not leaders. Therefore we should not waste time and resources trying to educate politicians. Politicians will not support individual liberty and limited government unless and until they are forced to do so by the people," says Ron Paul."

  27. #24
    LOL, shes spot on, but not enough people believe that the federal government is an occupying military force. The police for example are an illegal entity...police departments are an illegal form of "governing"...unelected, unionized thugs who knowingly or uknowingly exist with unequal protection under the law (license to kill,license to rob,break entry,tamper evidence). Anyhow...people like to have one foot in tyranny, and one foot in what they pretend looks like freedom.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    territories are lands outside of states. I.8.17 deals with fed land holdings in states.
    Not really. I.8.17 deals solely with land acquired by the federal government by purchase from or cession by the States. It doesn't deal with land acquired by other methods (e.g., by treaty).

    The Property Clause covers both territories and "other Property belonging to the United States". It follows that land acquired by treaty is governed by the Property Clause, not I.8.17. Whether a particular location is a territory or land acquired by treaty that's physically within the exterior boundary of a State isn't important. For example, the land that now comprises Nevada was originally acquired under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. When a portion of this land was later admitted to the Union as the State of Nevada, certain lands were specifically reserved by the federal government and excluded from the State being created. In other words, this land was never part of the State of Nevada. It seems clear that Congress' power over this land is governed by the Property Clause and not I.8.17.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    It's inconceivable that the Founders intended to deny the government of the United States a power exercised by every other government in history -- that of acquiring land by treaty.
    Thomas Jefferson sure thought it was conceivable.

    But that doesn't address my question anyway. It's not just about the general matter of owning any land. It's about owning land for exercising powers outside those enumerated in the Constitution. Nowhere did the "good discussion" you posted address that.
    Last edited by erowe1; 02-05-2016 at 06:16 PM.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    IV.3.2.
    The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State
    As you can see, it makes no mention of national parks, national forests, recreation areas, or wildlife refuges. Nor does it say that this provision is for the federal government to be able to exercise powers outside those that are enumerated in the Constitution.

    By your reasoning, they're allowed to do anything they want on land they own, and no matter what that is, it can never be unconstitutional.

  32. #28
    When a federal territory is ceded into statehood or intended to expand an existing state, the federal government does not maintain ownership of those lands as federal property (excluding such lands prior reserved by treaty such as to Indian reservations or that are privately owned or that have been appropriated)--such a notion is counter to the Equal Footing Doctrine. Article IV is no longer in play, while Article I is beset by clauses 1, 17, 18 and by Article VI.2--this is further substantiated by IV.3.1.

    I.8.1, I.8.17, I.8.18:
    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States;
    . . .
    To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings

    To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
    VI.2:
    This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land;
    IV.3.1, IV.3.2
    but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.

    The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States;
    Coyle v. Smith, 221 U.S. 559 (1911) :
    "subject only to the rights since surrendered by the Constitution," said:

    "Alabama is, therefore, entitled to the sovereignty and jurisdiction over all the territory within her limits, subject to the common law, to the same extent that Georgia possessed it before she ceded it to the United States. To maintain any other doctrine is to deny that Alabama has been admitted into the union on an equal footing with the original States, the constitution, laws, and compact to the contrary notwithstanding."

    The plain deduction from this case is that, when a new State is admitted into the Union, it is so admitted with all of the powers of sovereignty and jurisdiction which pertain to the original States, and that such powers may not be constitutionally diminished, impaired or shorn away by any conditions, compacts or stipulations embraced in the act under which the new State came into the Union which would not be valid and effectual if the subject of congressional legislation after admission.”
    Dissenting Justice in Bonelli Cattle Company et al., Petitioners, v. State of Arizona et al., 414 U.S. 313 (1973):
    “MR. JUSTICE STEWART (dissenting).
    . . .
    To put the matter bluntly, the Court's application of the equal-footing doctrine in this case seems to me wholly wrong. While conceding that the later admitted States have "the same rights, sovereignty and jurisdiction . . . as the original States possess within their respective borders," ante, at 318, the Court holds that 'the nature and extent of the title to the bed of a navigable stream held by the State under the equal-footing doctrine' involves a "right asserted under federal law" that must be determined under the rules of federal common law. The effect of the Court's analysis is completely to undercut the equal-footing doctrine. As noted above, the original States derived their sovereign rights and powers directly from the Crown after the Revolution and retained whatever powers they did not later surrender or limit in the Federal Constitution. Even under the Court's 'title' analysis, therefore, federal common law would not govern the conflicting claims involved here if the river were located in Massachusetts or Virginia, rather than in Arizona.

    The upshot of the Court's decision is that the 13 Original States are free to develop and apply their own rules of property law for the resolution of conflicting claims to an exposed bed of a river, while those States admitted after the Constitution's ratification must under today's decision knuckle under to this Court's supervisory view of 'federal common law.' A later-admitted State like Arizona is thus not at all on an equal footing with the original States in the exercise of sovereignty over real property within its boundaries. And the vehicle used by the Court to arrive at this unjust result is, incredibly, the very doctrine that was intended to insure to the new States equal footing with the original States. Thus, the Court's strange application of the equalfooting doctrine brings that constitutional principle into fundamental conflict with the purpose it was intended to serve.

    If the equal-footing doctrine means anything, it means that Arizona cannot be treated as a second-class State. It means that, upon admission to the Union, it received title to, and sovereignty over, the beds of navigable rivers within its boundaries, to the same extent as the original States after the Revolution. As a function of that sovereignty, Arizona courts have the power to develop and apply state common law in determining legal questions that arise with respect to this property, including conflicting claims to the bed that is later exposed by the vagaries of the river. And the power of the Arizona courts to decide this controversy under state law surely includes the power to decide it in a way that we here might think is wholly wrong.”
    As per the Northwest Ordinance of 1787 (Noting that is was several of the existing states that ceded the Westward territories they held to the United States for the admission of new states and not the United States that asserted proprietorship and federal supremacy over the existing states to their own delight by decreeing ownership and management over such lands to be ceded for the admission of new states):
    “Sec. 5. The governor and judges, or a majority of them, shall adopt and publish in the district such laws of the original States, criminal and civil, as may be necessary and best suited to the circumstances of the district, and report them to Congress from time to time: which laws shall be in force in the district until the organization of the General Assembly therein, unless disapproved of by Congress; but afterwards the Legislature shall have authority to alter them as they shall think fit.
    Sec. 6. The governor, for the time being, shall be commander in chief of the militia, appoint and commission all officers in the same below the rank of general officers; all general officers shall be appointed and commissioned by Congress.
    Sec. 7. Previous to the organization of the general assembly, the governor shall appoint such magistrates and other civil officers in each county or township, as he shall find necessary for the preservation of the peace and good order in the same: After the general assembly shall be organized, the powers and duties of the magistrates and other civil officers shall be regulated and defined by the said assembly; but all magistrates and other civil officers not herein otherwise directed, shall during the continuance of this temporary government, be appointed by the governor.
    Sec. 8. For the prevention of crimes and injuries, the laws to be adopted or made shall have force in all parts of the district, and for the execution of process, criminal and civil, the governor shall make proper divisions thereof; and he shall proceed from time to time as circumstances may require, to lay out the parts of the district in which the Indian titles shall have been extinguished, into counties and townships, subject, however, to such alterations as may thereafter be made by the legislature.
    . . .
    Sec. 13. And, for extending the fundamental principles of civil and religious liberty, which form the basis whereon these republics, their laws and constitutions are erected; to fix and establish those principles as the basis of all laws, constitutions, and governments, which forever hereafter shall be formed in the said territory: to provide also for the establishment of States, and permanent government therein, and for their admission to a share in the federal councils on an equal footing with the original States, at as early periods as may be consistent with the general interest:
    Sec. 14. It is hereby ordained and declared by the authority aforesaid, That the following articles shall be considered as articles of compact between the original States and the people and States in the said territory and forever remain unalterable, unless by common consent, to wit:
    . . .
    Art. 2. … And, in the just preservation of rights and property, it is understood and declared, that no law ought ever to be made, or have force in the said territory, that shall, in any manner whatever, interfere with or affect private contracts or engagements, bona fide, and without fraud, previously formed.
    Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged. …
    . . .
    Art. 5. And, whenever any of the said States shall have sixty thousand free inhabitants therein, such State shall be admitted, by its delegates, into the Congress of the United States, on an equal footing with the original States in all respects whatever, and shall be at liberty to form a permanent constitution and State government: Provided, the constitution and government so to be formed, shall be republican, and in conformity to the principles contained in these articles; and, so far as it can be consistent with the general interest of the confederacy, such admission shall be allowed at an earlier period, and when there may be a less number of free inhabitants in the State than sixty thousand.”
    From the Heritage Foundation:
    “Article I is the place where one would expect to find a grant of power to Congress to exercise political sovereignty over federal lands. Article IV, in contrast, which generally deals with issues of state-to-state relations (i.e., full faith and credit, privileges and immunities, extradition, repatriation of slaves, creation of new states, protection of states against invasion) would be an odd place to put such a power. Moreover, it is inconsistent with the careful drafting of the Constitution to assume that the Framers included two overlapping grants of sovereign political authority over federal lands. These structural considerations make it doubtful that the broad police-power theory is consistent with the original understanding.”
    You need to go back and take this to heart:
    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    Last edited by Weston White; 02-06-2016 at 04:00 AM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  33. #29
    Today's corruption by progressivism is epitomized throughout U.S. v. NYE COUNTY, NEV., 920 F.Supp. 1108 (1996):
    As a condition of statehood, the Nevada Enabling Act required that the convention adopt an ordinance agreeing and declaring that Nevada would "forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States." ... Presently, the United States asserts ownership of nearly 87% of the lands in Nevada. In Nye County, the United States' assertion of ownership increases to nearly 93% of the lands. . . . The court tends to agree with Nye County and Nevada that the present suit is not the appropriate vehicle to define the broad boundaries between local and federal jurisdiction over the public land in Nye County. Like the Supreme Court, this court will decline "to decide important questions regarding `the scope and constitutionality of legislation in advance of its immediate adverse effect in the context of a concrete case,' or in the absence of `an adequate and full-bodied record.'"
    http://www.leagle.com/decision/19962...0COUNTY,%20NEV
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    By your reasoning, they're allowed to do anything they want on land they own, and no matter what that is, it can never be unconstitutional.
    If the federal government does something on its property that violates a specific constitutional provision, it would be unconstitutional -- e.g., if it required that all park rangers had to be white Methodists.

    IV.3.2 would be unnecessary if Congress were limited to the uses set forth in I.8.17. It follows that IV.3.2 must grant Congress power in addition to that contained in I.8.17.

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