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Thread: AZ - Unarmed man shot dead by cop for non-compliance

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    For the first time ever, I am seeing cops, neocons, and statoloters on fedbook roundly condemning the shooter in this event. The 'justifiers' are barely meeping their excuses almost like they are ashamed to.
    And I (and presumably Occam's too) are there saying the same thing we've been saying for years:
    Welcome to the $#@!ing party already. Now take that last little half-step to where we are, recognize that Brailsford did his job exactly as defined, and that this has always been the case, and let's go push to have something meaningful done, like complete and immediate abolition of the constabulary.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    And I (and presumably Occam's too) are there saying the same thing we've been saying for years:
    Welcome to the $#@!ing party already. Now take that last little half-step to where we are, recognize that Brailsford did his job exactly as defined, and that this has always been the case, and let's go push to have something meaningful done, like complete and immediate abolition of the constabulary.

    There isn't enough +rep available to properly reward this post. Bravo!
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by navy-vet View Post
    Did the cop(s) see any of them standing in the window with the tricked out pellet rifle when they arrived I wonder? That would have set the tone.
    ...
    Setting the tone is important, and it is usually the same in these cases. Concerned citizen calls about someone pointing a dangerous looking gun around, police dispatcher translates that to active shooter with automatic weapon scenario, police blindly rush to what they imagine is Mogadishu in the movie Black Hawk Down.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanTX View Post
    I don't know if anyone else pointed it out, but apparently it was not the shooter giving the impossible commands, it was another officer, a Sgt. Charles Langley. So there are two who should be in prison for this.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak..._who_murdered/
    Yeah, it's strange how the impression that it was just one cop continues to persist.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #125
    Jan2017
    Member

    The end seems like a video game . . . execute the guy crawling toward you all and just walk by to the locked door behind.
    Not enough tokens/points left to get in through the door . . . go back.

    Conditioning has been going on for this police state.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Jan2017 View Post
    The end seems like a video game . . . execute the guy crawling toward you all and just walk by to the locked door behind.
    Not enough tokens/points left to get in through the door . . . go back.

    Conditioning has been going on for this police state.
    Yeah, that was my take too. The guy acted like he was playing a video game.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by dean.engelhardt View Post
    I don't have the answer to your question, but I moved to Mesa AZ in 1994 and lived there until 2001. When I was there, Mesa was open carry, so there is nothing illegal with having a rifle. Having moved from California, it took some getting used to see guys walking in the store with a handgun in their jean's pocket. It was not an issue at all.

    The area is famous for dove and quail hunting. During dove and quail season the hotels are full of hunters. They all have shot guns. Most hotels in that area provide rags for gun cleaning so hunter don't soil the towels.

    So back to your question, if the cops where responding to call that somebody had a rifle in a hotel room; I can't see why they would act like it was an active shooter situation. Matter of fact, I don't understand why they even responded to the call at all.

    ^^^This. (+ rep). That has been my belief all along. Where does the "innocent until proven guilty" even come in here? Pointing a gun out the window in an open carry state is not the same thing as shooting it or pointing it at people. Did the police even look from the outside first to see if he was still pointing a gun out the window when they got there? My gut says they didn't.
    Last edited by charrob; 12-11-2017 at 09:27 PM.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    ^^^This. (+ rep). That has been my belief all along. Where does the "innocent until proven guilty" even come in here? Pointing a gun out the window in an open carry state is not the same thing as shooting it or pointing it at people. Did the police even look from the outside first to see if he was still pointing a gun out the window when they got there? My gut says they didn't.
    Bodycam videos should be streamed live to a public archive site.
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

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    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Pointing a gun out the window in an open carry state is not the same thing as shooting it or pointing it at people.
    Did he actually point the gun out the window? Or was he merely seen through the window from outside while he was handling the gun inside the room?

    I was under the impression that it was the latter, though I may be wrong. If he was pointing it out a window, then it is not entirely unreasonable for an onlooker to have thought that he might also have been about to fire the gun. (Why else point a gun out a window?) This raises an interesting question: what if you were an open-carrying mundane (or a concealed-carrying mundane, for that matter) and you saw someone waving or pointing a gun out a window? What would you do? Yanking out your gun and popping off rounds at the guy might be an overreaction (or maybe not, depending on what else you think is going on), but nonchalant indifference doesn't seem appropriate, either.

    Whatever one might do in such a situation, the upshot is surely that it not wise to point guns out of windows ... (especially in publicly trafficed areas like hotels ...)

    (DISCLAIMER: As anyone familiar with my posting history will already know, none of this should be construed as an attempt to suggest that the actions of the cops were in any way justified or excusable - or indeed, that their actions were anything but those of rabidly deranged killers.)
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    Bodycam videos should be streamed live to a public archive site.
    Yes, i completely agree. Too many opportunities for videos to be "edited" or otherwise withheld from evidence if not streamed live to a public archive site.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Did he actually point the gun out the window? Or was he merely seen through the window from outside while he was handling the gun inside the room?

    I was under the impression that it was the latter, though I may be wrong. If he was pointing it out a window, then it is not entirely unreasonable for an onlooker to have thought that he might also have been about to fire the gun. (Why else point a gun out a window?)
    He apparently was showing two other people he met at the hotel his pesticide gun. Maybe the hotel room was dark and he could see more clearly closer to the window and he didn't want to aim it at the other people in his room so he aimed it out the window? Since the pesticide gun was used to kill birds that get in grocery stores, maybe he was aiming it at a bird outside? He was on the 5th floor and presumably pointing it out straight, not down toward people.

    If the state is open carry, and hunters who kill quail and doves regularly pack hotel rooms in Mesa Arizona with rifles to the point that hotels give their hunting guests rags to clean their rifles, I would think it would be unusual for people in that area to get upset with seeing a gun unless that gun was actually pointed at people on the ground. I don't think this was the case here and i don't think police even checked before running into the hotel to see if he was still pointing a gun out the window. My gut says by the time cops got to the hotel, Shaver had finished showing his guests his pesticide gun and had put it away. This whole case is ridiculous and horrifying.

  14. #132
    What if:
    The police showed up and a team went onto the floor of the hotel while a police negotiator or whatever they call these guys nowadays was dispatched thru to the room where the man allegedly was pointing a gun. A team is on the floor ready for the worst case scenario while a diplomat is contacting the alleged suspect to get their perspective and arrange for the occupants in the room to come out willingly and peacefully.

    Regardless the problem does not lie with whether that happened or not and does not lie with the shooter or person in charge of the squad. It is one thing when one egregious police shooting happens and the justice systems fails. It is egregious when the justice system rarely ever functions.

  15. #133


    Looks like the ACLU are adding their voice to the conversation. Which does bring up the question:
    Brailsford cannot be tried again for murder in AZ because of "double jeopardy". But could the Feds charge him with violation of Shaver's civil liberties?



    ‘You’re $#@!ed’: The Acquittal of Officer Brailsford and the Crisis of Police Impunity


    By Jeffery Robinson, ACLU Deputy Legal Director and Director of the Trone Center for Justice and Equality

    Two words stick in my mind when I think of the video of Daniel Shaver begging for his life before he was shot and killed by Officer Philip Brailsford of the Police Department in Mesa, Arizona. The two words were written on the dust cover of the AR-15 rifle Braisford used to kill Shaver:

    “You’re $#@!ed.”

    We have seen this movie before. Daniel Shaver was not armed or committing any crime when was he shot to death by Brailsford. Like many previous police shooting videos, this one shows police behaving much more aggressively than Mr. Shaver. And like previous videos, a jury acquitted the officer of all criminal charges. But this video showed us two things about policing culture in America that stand out. First, the video shows Shaver begging for his life while he tried to follow contradictory instructions screamed at him by an officer. And Shaver was white.

    Shaver had a job killing pests. Sometimes he used a pellet gun to get the job done, and he was seen holding the gun by people at the hotel. When the police were called, they were told a man had a gun so they had to be careful.

    I get it. But how far does that information take us?

    At trial, the officer emphasized the danger of a potentially armed person and claimed that what he did was consistent with his training. But if that ends the inquiry, it will be almost impossible to convict a police officer of a crime for shooting anyone. There is an argument that this is already the reality in America.

    In the 12 years between 2005 and April 2017, only 80 officers have been arrested on murder or manslaughter charges for on-duty shootings, according to work by Philip Stinson, an associate professor of criminal justice at Bowling Green State University in Ohio. The Washington Post reported that between 2015 and 2017 police shot and killed 2,884 people. Police shoot and kill numerous people every year and are hardly ever held accountable.

    Shaver and a companion had been ordered out of a hotel room and told to get on the floor. The video shows him being neither hostile nor resistant. On the video you can hear one of the officers screaming, “If you make a mistake, another mistake, there is a very severe possibility you’re both going to get shot … if you move, we are going to consider that a threat, and we are going to deal with it, and you may not survive it.” The police are screaming that the cost of a mistake is death — what kind of training teaches that as a proper way to deal with people?

    Do you think an innocent person might get nervous if an AR-15 was pointed at him while the police officer was screaming commands, including, “Make a mistake and I will kill you?” Would you get nervous?

    Not only was the officer shouting in a very hostile voice, the orders were contradictory. “Do not put your hands down for any reason,” he tells Shaver. “Your hands go back in the small of your back or down, we are going to shoot you, do you understand me?” Shaver, who is now in tears, says, “Yes, sir.”

    But immediately after, the commands change, “Crawl towards me,” and Mr. Shaver lowers his hands to the floor and begins moving toward the officers.

    A few seconds after beginning to crawl, Mr. Shaver seems to twist slightly to his right, and as he does so someone shouts, “Don’t!” Officer Brailsford begins firing the first of five shots. As predicted by the other officer, Shaver did not survive.

    There is no training that justifies the behavior seen on the video. Screaming at a person that is crying cannot be a legitimate technique for officer training. And if Shaver did something threatening, why was Brailsford the only officer who fired his weapon, not just once or twice, but five times?

    And Daniel Shaver was white. Deliberate or unconscious racial bias played no role. Black or brown skin was not a proxy for a threat. This video demonstrates how far we have gone as a country in accepting the culture of police violence. Policing in America has advanced to the state where anyone can be killed for no good reason.

    The jury that acquitted Brailsford did not hear about the two words that were on his dust cover because the judge excluded that evidence. The laws in virtually every state do a great job of protecting police. Snoop Dogg has said that policing in America is a “Resident Evil, it’s all on camera and they still don’t believe you.” This is the police/community relationship we have created for ourselves.

    Discussion of police training is not unimportant — it can be the difference between life and death. Don’t assume that police violence will be limited to Black and brown people — the culture of violence will not exempt white people.

    Eugene O’Donnell, a former police officer and a professor at John Jay College of Criminal, was quoted in The New York Times saying “What people as humans will see is someone drunk and emotionally distraught…The police will read that differently. In some sense it’s an argument without end: The police are just going to add this up a different way.”

    Can any of us be safe in a society where police officers are trained to have a perspective that is other than human? How is it possible that a trained officer thinks the appropriate response to a mistake is five bullets from an AR-15? If Americans don’t work to change laws so that police can be held accountable for unnecessary violence, get ready for more executions and more brutal videos.
    https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-l...d#comments-top

  16. #134

    Wife of man killed in Arizona police shooting speaks out








    Wife of man killed in Arizona police shooting speaks out



    Last Updated Dec 12, 2017 8:36 PM EST

    A graphic video of a controversial police shooting in 2016 was released last week. The officer was fired for violating police procedures but acquitted of charges that he murdered 26-year-old Daniel Shaver. On Tuesday, Shaver's widow spoke out in her first interview since the verdict.

    "I've been fighting for two years and screaming. Finally, now, it took people watching my husband die a very horrible inhumane death for people to care," his wife, Laney Sweet, said.

    For two years, the video of Shaver's final moments was sealed from the public.

    "It was an execution," Sweet said. "You had a man begging for his life, and he was shot five times for what? For his elbow coming up too high? For being confused? For being compliant? Why did he deserve to die? He didn't."

    The video was released last Thursday, after jurors found officer Philip Brailsford not guilty.

    "I just don't understand how anybody could watch that video and then say, 'not guilty,' that this is justified that Daniel deserved this, and that Philip Brailsford doesn't deserve to be held accountable for his actions," Sweet said.

    "What do you make of him saying he had a split second to decide what to do when he thought your husband was pulling a gun?" CBS News asked.

    "I think this goes back to the Mesa Police Department's training, that this is really how they're trained," Sweet said.

    Shaver had no gun on him, but police found two pellet rifles he used for his pest control job in his hotel room. Sweet said the hardest day of her life was telling her daughters their father wasn't coming home. On Monday, she received a phone call from her 8-year-old's school.

    "She tried choking herself while she was at school, and told her friend that she wanted to die, so I spent all last evening with her in the hospital getting her psychiatric help," Sweet said.

    "What did Natalie say to you when you saw her?" CBS News asked. "She told me that she wanted to be with her dad," Sweet replied.

    Sweet said important information was not included in the trial, like the former officer's past record of excessive force. She has filed a wrongful death civil suit and is calling the U.S. Department of Justice to investigate.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/daniel-...lice-shooting/
    Last edited by charrob; 12-13-2017 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Add video

  17. #135





    Sergeant In Command HAD PRIOR DISCIPLINE FOR ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR


    The Sergeant who repeatedly threatened to kill Daniel Shaver in the moments leading up to his death was under review for his abusive attitude ... TMZ has learned.

    Charles Langley was the supervisor on scene in January 2016 when officer Philip Brailsford gunned down Shaver at a Mesa, Arizona hotel. You hear Langley bark a series of threats, including, "You do that again we're shooting you, do you understand?!"

    Turns out Langley was disciplined back in 2010 for bad behavior. Internal affairs reprimanded him for "personal behavior, conduct and attitude toward coworkers and superiors, defaming or discrediting coworkers," and most significantly -- "failure to lead subordinates consistent with the mission and vision of the Mesa Police Department" ... this according to police documents obtained by TMZ.

    Langley was ordered to improve his work ethic and required to take training courses, and if he didn't get better, he was threatened with termination.

    Langley retired in April 2016, just 3 months after Shaver's death, and moved to the Philippines. He wasn't in the country to face punishment for his role in the shooting.

    We're told Shaver's family plans to use this information as evidence in their lawsuit against the Mesa PD, claiming Langley was unfit to be leading the unit that resulted in Brailsford killing Shaver.

  18. #136
    This kind of crap makes me sick. I struggle to understand these goons. It used to be goons wouldn't shoot until they were shot at (we're talking the 60's now...)
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    This kind of crap makes me sick. I struggle to understand these goons. It used to be goons wouldn't shoot until they were shot at (we're talking the 60's now...)
    No body cams, dash cams, etc in the 1960s.

    Just imagine how many times the cops must have claimed they were "shot at" , when they weren't.

    Back then they would have just planted a drop gun on Shaver and then they would have said that he reached for it. There was nothing more noble about the "old school" cops -- actually a lot of today's officers are probably downright "nice" compared to those guys.

    Now it's more transparent, and juries can literally see a cop commit murder or manslaughter -- and yet they will give their seal of approval, with very rare exceptions.

    This was a perfectly legal killing, based upon the precedents set by past juries. The precedent has been set that if you fail to obey just one "command" or make one "wrong move" -- then it's legal for a police officer to kill you, if he or she so chooses, based upon their feelings at the moment.

    Of course "legal" does not mean right or just . The concept of what's acceptable to be a "legal police killing" needs to change, but it won't.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by SeanTX View Post
    No body cams, dash cams, etc in the 1960s.

    Just imagine how many times the cops must have claimed they were "shot at" , when they weren't.

    Back then they would have just planted a drop gun on Shaver and then they would have said that he reached for it. There was nothing more noble about the "old school" cops -- actually a lot of today's officers are probably downright "nice" compared to those guys.

    Now it's more transparent, and juries can literally see a cop commit murder or manslaughter -- and yet they will give their seal of approval, with very rare exceptions.

    This was a perfectly legal killing, based upon the precedents set by past juries. The precedent has been set that if you fail to obey just one "command" or make one "wrong move" -- then it's legal for a police officer to kill you, if he or she so chooses, based upon their feelings at the moment.

    Of course "legal" does not mean right or just . The concept of what's acceptable to be a "legal police killing" needs to change, but it won't.
    Believe me, it's way worse now than then. Yes, goons have always been goons and they did some bad sheit back then too but the percentage of evil has increased to the point that you can't find any good at all... Believe it our not there were a lot of "Barney Feif's" years ago. They would take verbal abuse and try to work out a situation. They were not trained to dominate like they are today. It's the training that pollutes their minds to the extent that they turn into Mr. Hide when they put on that uniform.

    Yeah, it's a LOT different now!
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

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  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    It isn't about whether cops had guns "back then" or not. It's about the fact that, ever since the inception of "modern" police forces in the 19th century, cops have been the specially privileged enforcers of the state's statutory malum prohibitum rules (and only incidentally the apprehenders of malum in se offenders such as Bonnie & Clyde). That is what they do. That is what they are for. That is why they exist.

    Human nature has not changed. "The job" has just as powerful an attraction to the same kinds of people today as it did "back then" - sociopaths, sadists and others who get off on aggressively exercising authority over others with little or no accountability for their actions. Things like "nickel rides" or murderous "jailhouse" neglect and abuse (or the "code of silence" among "brothers in blue" that routinely attends the lack of exposure of such brutalities) are not of recent vintage - and it does not take guns to do what was done to people like Kelly Thomas or Eric Garner, either now or "back then."
    I just saw the quote below in a necro-bumped thread from almost ten years ago (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...king-Bicyclist) and it reminded me ot what I was talking about above. The poster claimed to be a cop - so this is "straight from the horse's mouth," as it were ...

    Quote Originally Posted by CopThatSupportsRonPaul View Post
    That's what I find terribly ironic, people here call for the "good old days" where there was "no police abuse", but the reality is, back then, police abused their powers much more and could get away with it. Another officer told me the story of this one cop, who's now deceased, who made it a game beating up black people for fun back in the 70's. He could get away with it, his department didn't even care, fact the chief probably even encouraged it. Wouldn't be surprised if he also sold drugs, just like the example you gave.

    Stuff like that just wouldn't fly today.

    If you people think "police brutality" is so bad now, it was a lot worse "back then" in the "good ol days" that you long for so much.
    CTSRP says "stuff like that just wouldn't fly today." Of course, "stuff like that" can and does "fly today" (Exhibit A: the failure to convict the murderer of Daniel Shaver).

    Whatever extent to which it doesn't "fly" is largely due to things like the Internet and the ubiquity of video (Exhibit A: the prosecution of the murderer of Daniel Shaver).

    (What I find "terribly ironic" is that CTSRP's shuck-and-jive attempt to defend cops occurred in the context of - you guessed it - the posting of a video to the Internet ...)
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  23. #140
    I was born in 1971. One difference that I see was that back then cops didn't harass honest citizens over stupid crap like seatbelts and such. Warnings were more likely than tickets, and the SWAT wasn't called for speeding tickets. Cops didn't freak out about gun racks in pick up trucks and my dad would get out of the car and have a polite conversation when he was pulled over.

    Usually the beat downs were reserved for those who actually broke the law or undesirables from out of town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I just saw the quote below in a necro-bumped thread from almost ten years ago (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...king-Bicyclist) and it reminded me ot what I was talking about above. The poster claimed to be a cop - so this is "straight from the horse's mouth," as it were ...



    CTSRP says "stuff like that just wouldn't fly today." Of course, "stuff like that" can and does "fly today" (Exhibit A: the failure to convict the murderer of Daniel Shaver).

    Whatever extent to which it doesn't "fly" is largely due to things like the Internet and the ubiquity of video (Exhibit A: the prosecution of the murderer of Daniel Shaver).

    (What I find "terribly ironic" is that CTSRP's shuck-and-jive attempt to defend cops occurred in the context of - you guessed it - the posting of a video to the Internet ...)
    ...

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I was born in 1971. One difference that I see was that back then cops didn't harass honest citizens over stupid crap like seatbelts and such. Warnings were more likely than tickets, and the SWAT wasn't called for speeding tickets. Cops didn't freak out about gun racks in pick up trucks and my dad would get out of the car and have a polite conversation when he was pulled over.

    Usually the beat downs were reserved for those who actually broke the law or undesirables from out of town.
    I don't disagree - though I suspect that incidents of unwarranted police violence have always been more common than most people like to think (and even when confronted with evidence of such violence, both now and "back then," many people reflexively presuppose that the target must have done something to "deserve" it, based on nothing other than the "say so" of the cops ...)

    But as I mentioned before (post #101), there are a number of problems that have always existed since the inception of "modern" police forces (and they always will exist as long as such police forces do - it's in the nature of the beast). Among these problems are the fact that "the job," by its nature, attracts the kind of people who incline to aggressively exercising authority over others while enjoying special privileges with little or no accountability, and the fact that police do not exist - and never have existed - to "serve and protect" (as the system's own courts have explicitly and repeatedly confirmed), but rather to enforce the state's petty malum prohibitum rules (such as concern "stupid crap like seatbelts and such").

    Those already-existing problems - which are inherent in the nature of the police as an institution - have been greatly exacerbated by the relatively recent militarization of police, combined with things such as the replacement of policies geared toward non-belligerent deescalation with "circular force continuum" polices which encourage "officer safety über alles" and "submit and comply or else!" attitudes on the part of cops (even when dealing with mere malum prohibitum offenders such as those caught not wearing seat belts, or selling "loose" cigarettes. or etc. ad nauseam). This has resulted in SWAT-o-matic cops who are far more likely than they once were to "harass honest citizens" and "freak out" at the least thing, with murderously lethal results. But the problems at the root of the matter are the same as they have always been ...

  25. #142
    Circular Force Continuum.

    The, literal, license to kill.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I was born in 1971.
    I was born in 1957.
    I was 16 when a cop cocked a pistol at my head as I was walking to get a pizza.
    SWAT did not exist.
    and crime was rare and petty for he most part.

    Less police is always more freedom,,, from my perspective.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I was born in 1957.
    I was 16 when a cop cocked a pistol at my head as I was walking to get a pizza.
    SWAT did not exist.
    and crime was rare and petty for he most part.

    Less police is always more freedom,,, from my perspective.
    I don't disagree with what you said.
    ...



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  29. #145
    I have a suggestion that could eliminate many deaths.

    A surrender chamber. A chamber that can accommodate an individual and provide safety for everyone else. The surrendering individual enters the chamber willingly and is confined until a threat assessment can be determined. So basically bring in the chamber or whatever you call it. The individual can enter to ensure that they don't get shot.

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    I have a suggestion that could eliminate many deaths.

    A surrender chamber. A chamber that can accommodate an individual and provide safety for everyone else. The surrendering individual enters the chamber willingly and is confined until a threat assessment can be determined. So basically bring in the chamber or whatever you call it. The individual can enter to ensure that they don't get shot.
    We should also wear those clothes that strippers wear so that you can be totally naked with just a quick tug on the clothing.
    ...

  31. #147
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    Believe me, it's way worse now than then.
    Come on, man.
    Remember when Freddie Gray was murdered and they called it a "nickel ride"? They were still calling it that because it mimicked dangerous carnival rides that cost a nickel.
    How long has it been since carnival rides were dangerous?
    How long has it been since they cost a nickel?
    That's all the proof you need. They've not only been doing that since the 1930s (at the latest!), but they've done it frequently enough to have passed the terminology down to subsequent generations of cops.

    Read the beginning of this article discussing a situation - also, ironically, in Arizona - that happened in 1903, involving Sheriffs entering a property without a warrant and after being specifically told they are not welcome, and gunning down the owner.
    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...ut-at-gunsite/
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Come on, man.
    Remember when Freddie Gray was murdered and they called it a "nickel ride"? They were still calling it that because it mimicked dangerous carnival rides that cost a nickel.
    How long has it been since carnival rides were dangerous?
    How long has it been since they cost a nickel?
    That's all the proof you need. They've not only been doing that since the 1930s (at the latest!), but they've done it frequently enough to have passed the terminology down to subsequent generations of cops.

    Read the beginning of this article discussing a situation - also, ironically, in Arizona - that happened in 1903, involving Sheriffs entering a property without a warrant and after being specifically told they are not welcome, and gunning down the owner.
    https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...ut-at-gunsite/
    No one is saying that these things never happened in the past. I heard of a guy who was beaten within an inch of his life and then hung on a cross some 2000 years ago so yes, you are right these are not new tricks and yes they did them in the 30's and in the 60's. What I'm telling you (and I was there) is that it was no where near as bad then (the 60's and 70's) as it is today. Take it or leave it I stand by that statement and if you were there please tell me some examples. I can tell you of several examples where the "peace officers" back then did NOT abuse people I knew (or me) and they did not.

    It's my experience.
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    No one is saying that these things never happened in the past. I heard of a guy who was beaten within an inch of his life and then hung on a cross some 2000 years ago so yes, you are right these are not new tricks and yes they did them in the 30's and in the 60's. What I'm telling you (and I was there) is that it was no where near as bad then (the 60's and 70's) as it is today. Take it or leave it I stand by that statement and if you were there please tell me some examples. I can tell you of several examples where the "peace officers" back then did NOT abuse people I knew (or me) and they did not.

    It's my experience.
    Thank you globalists.

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