Why Libertarians Are Wrong About Immigration - Stefan Molyneux

[AmericanSpartan]

Well that is good.

Blaming the victims of Authoritarianism is not.
Supporting and advancing authoritarianism is Anti-Liberty.

It is binary. on or off..

not both...

They are not victims, with how they vote, they are supporters of it, since they are and are invading the nation, and burden us, and actively supporting the theft of our wealth, Liberty, future, and rightful dominance over our nation, culture and elections, they are a threat and need to be dealt with as such.

Self preservation/Self Defense is not authoritarianism .

He openly refuted this had you watch the video.

[pcosmar]

Its us or them, who is it going to be?

you sound like "them" to me.

you sure as hell ain't "us".

[AmericanSpartan]

you sound like "them" to me.

you sure as hell ain't "us".

Meanwhile more future welfare voters flood across the border, or are legally allow in.

[Cabal]

I fondly remember the days when Stefan was still talking about the gun in the room. That time, he would say that in situations like this, you should try to look at where the gun in the room is and try to remove it instead of bringing in more guns into the situation. He would have argued that if immigrants are taking welfare and destroying the country, your efforts as a voluntarist should be focused on trying to take away the welfare instead of pointing more guns at people. At that time, he was so principled that even with Ron Paul and his valiant effort to occupy govt and roll back the excesses of govt and spread the message of liberty wasn't even good enough for him.

Now he supports pointing government guns at people, supports voting and sadly is a big advocate of Donald "eminent domain" Trump.

I agree, this is a departure from what has typically been an uncompromising stance against State aggression, and it really isn't consistent with the philosophy he's known to promote. Especially in the early ranting, he seems to be grappling with the internal conflict caused by what I'm sure he must know to be the problem of inconsistency with his position. He makes appeals to the inconsistency of other libertarians on other issues to rationalize his own in that rant, and unfortunately for him, it isn't a very compelling argument, and only seems applicable to those who have not been consistent on those other issues he mentions, anyway. I'm not sure why he believes the inconsistency of others justifies his own. As I mentioned in my initial post, to direct blame at immigrants in this manner is to distract from the true villain--and as Stefan would have previously said, the gun in the room, as you pointed out--the State. And to me, that's not helpful where anti-statism and a philosophy of liberty is concerned.

As well, at the end of the day, wealth will have to be stolen and redistributed to support "border control" (i.e. State aggression and illegitimate property rights) and the immigration process, anyway. At the end of the day, wealth will still be stolen and redistributed to support welfarism, be it to immigrants, or natives, or special interests and crooks. At the end of the day, whether people are voting for Democrats or Republicans, the end result is more or less the same with only marginal (if any) variance. The State continues to grow, the State continues to wage wars, the State continues to steal and redistribute, the State continues to create more and more laws to chip away at more and more liberties. It's like quibbling over whether you'd prefer to shoot yourself in the left foot or the right foot, and arguing over the merits of which would be better rather than focusing on the $#@! with the gun wanting to shoot you.

[Tywysog Cymru]

When I see it, I picture 12-year old boys snickering over a nasty word they've heard for the first time and can't wait to use.

I imagine that a large portion of the alt-right are around 12 years old and it's their first day on the internet besides the Disney and Lego websites.

Its a great word, it sums up open borders/mass immigration supports very well, you have no defense against it so you have to justify your dispossession under the lie of "principals" or "NAP" mean while you are bring replaced, your rights/wealth/nation/elections/future stolen from you and you wonder why things are not getting better.

So keep getting mad at the wrong people, and working against your self interest because that has been going great so far.

I'm mad at the politicians. You're mad at immigrants.

[Wilf]

Its a great word, it sums up open borders/mass immigration supports very well, you have no defense against it so you have to justify your dispossession under the lie of "principals" or "NAP" mean while you are bring replaced, your rights/wealth/nation/elections/future stolen from you and you wonder why things are not getting better.

So keep getting mad at the wrong people, and working against your self interest because that has been going great so far.

Nope, it is used as ad hominem to disagree with those; who do not have a problem with minorities from an individualistic view point.

[AmericanSpartan]

I agree, this is a departure from what has typically been an uncompromising stance against State aggression, and it really isn't consistent with the philosophy he's known to promote. Especially in the early ranting, he seems to be grappling with the internal conflict caused by what I'm sure he must know to be the problem of inconsistency with his position. He makes appeals to the inconsistency of other libertarians on other issues to rationalize his own in that rant, and unfortunately for him, it isn't a very compelling argument, and only seems applicable to those who have not been consistent on those other issues he mentions, anyway. I'm not sure why he believes the inconsistency of others justifies his own. As I mentioned in my initial post, to direct blame at immigrants in this manner is to distract from the true villain--and as Stefan would have previously said, the gun in the room, as you pointed out--the State. And to me, that's not helpful where anti-statism and a philosophy of liberty is concerned.

As well, at the end of the day, wealth will have to be stolen and redistributed to support "border control" (i.e. State aggression and illegitimate property rights) and the immigration process, anyway. At the end of the day, wealth will still be stolen and redistributed to support welfarism, be it to immigrants, or natives, or special interests and crooks. At the end of the day, whether people are voting for Democrats or Republicans, the end result is more or less the same with only marginal (if any) variance. The State continues to grow, the State continues to wage wars, the State continues to steal and redistribute, the State continues to create more and more laws to chip away at more and more liberties. It's like quibbling over whether you'd prefer to shoot yourself in the left foot or the right foot, and arguing over the merits of which would be better rather than focusing on the $#@! with the gun wanting to shoot you.

So rather then spending money to fix and maintain the hull of ship, would you do nothing allow a ship to sin to save a few dollars??

[AmericanSpartan]

I imagine that a large portion of the alt-right are around 12 years old and it's their first day on the internet besides the Disney and Lego websites.


I'm mad at the politicians. You're mad at immigrants.

You know as much as you whine and try to attack the Alt Right just remember we are getting more done in a fraction of a time then the current Libertarian mainstream has, while Ron Paul had stalled, we used the work of an author (Ann Coulter) to drive a man who will be able to advance the causes of the Right and has enough money, personality and brute force of will to to make it happen (Donald John Trump).

So maybe you guys should hustle as hard as you hate because you have had more or less 50 years and $#@! to show for it.

Who will blindly vote from them once they are given amnesty?

Yeah, I am, when you come to my nation, force your values, culture, politics on us, (legally or other wise) and reduce my wealth, Liberty, future and that of my countrymen and posterity you are lucky if being mad is the only thing that happens.

As for the Traitors in office who support this... It never ends well for traitors.


We have had mass immigration for 50 years. We are not seeing any real benefit, so we are going to pull the plug.

[Sola_Fide]

You know as much as you whine and try to attack the Alt Right just remember we are getting more done in a fraction of a time then the current Libertarian mainstream has, while Ron Paul had stalled, we used the work of an author (Ann Coulter) to drive a man who will be able to advance the causes of the Right and has enough money, personality and brute force of will to to make it happen (Donald John Trump).

So maybe you guys should hustle as hard as you hate because you have had more or less 50 years and $#@! to show for it.

Who will blindly vote from them once they are given amnesty?

Yeah, I am, when you come to my nation, force your values, culture, politics on us, (legally or other wise) and reduce my wealth, Liberty, future and that of my countrymen and posterity you are lucky if being mad is the only thing that happens.

As for the Traitors in office who support this... It never ends well for traitors.


We have had mass immigration for 50 years. We are not seeing any real benefit, so we are going to pull the plug.

The funny thing is: If Trump is elected, immigration policy won't change at all. He's just playing you morons like he plays everyone else.

[AmericanSpartan]

The funny thing is: If Trump is elected, immigration policy won't change at all. He's just playing you morons like he plays everyone else.

Your evidence for this claim?

Great to see you open border/mass immigration care more about principals and pathological autism more then Liberty.

[Cabal]

So rather then spending money to fix and maintain the hull of ship, would you do nothing allow a ship to sin to save a few dollars??

Despite what you may have heard, there are actually stupid questions, such as this one.

Rather than building nonsensical straw men with terrible, ambiguous analogies, why don't you speak plainly if you wish to address me, pleb.

And honestly, I'm not even sure why you have to ask any questions of me on this topic, rhetorical or otherwise. I think I've more than made my position abundantly clear. I've already established you to be an enemy of liberty. And yet you keep peddling this abject bull$#@! as if I'm ever going to accept your statist, nationalist, authoritarian, and racist premises or prescriptions. Why do you have such trouble wrapping your little head around it? Or did I just answer my own question?

[Tywysog Cymru]

You know as much as you whine and try to attack the Alt Right just remember we are getting more done in a fraction of a time then the current Libertarian mainstream has, while Ron Paul had stalled, we used the work of an author (Ann Coulter) to drive a man who will be able to advance the causes of the Right and has enough money, personality and brute force of will to to make it happen (Donald John Trump).

The alt-right, just like the word cuckservative, is something that exists on the internet, but no one who doesn't spend a lot of time on online political forums has heard of it.

[AmericanSpartan]

Despite what you may have heard, there are actually stupid questions, such as this one.

Rather than building nonsensical straw men with terrible, ambiguous analogies, why don't you speak plainly if you wish to address me, pleb.

And honestly, I'm not even sure why you have to ask any questions of me on this topic, rhetorical or otherwise. I think I've more than made my position abundantly clear. I've already established you to be an enemy of liberty. And yet you keep peddling this abject bull$#@! as if I'm ever going to accept your statist, nationalist, authoritarian, and racist premises or prescriptions. Why do you have such trouble wrapping your little head around it? Or did I just answer my own question?

Well have fun being out voted, but I guess as long as your value your principals more then win you will feel so morally superior, and after all is that not what matter most?

[AmericanSpartan]

The alt-right, just like the word cuckservative, is something that exists on the internet, but no one who doesn't spend a lot of time on online political forums has heard of it.

Dude, its everywhere, that is what a great meme does, it travels.

Once again you guys just need to hustle as hard as you hate, stop defending people who either do not care about your or will vote against you, and maybe...Just maybe you guess can join us in the Sun.

[AmericanSpartan]

Notice how you open borders/mass immigration supporters always change the subject away from the OP/data? I wonder why?

[Cabal]

Well have fun being out voted, but I guess as long as your value your principals more then win you will feel so morally superior, and after all is that not what matter most?

So, you're celebrating being unprincipled and morally inferior? Lol...



Well done. Keep proving your worth, Boobus.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Dude, its everywhere, that is what a great meme does, it travels.

No it isn't. I've only seen it on the internet and that's mostly on here and in comment sections. I think it's safe to say that the general public has no idea what the alt-right is and have probably never heard the word "cuckservative."

[Sola_Fide]

Your evidence for this claim?

Great to see you open border/mass immigration care more about principals and pathological autism more then Liberty.

My evidence for this claim is the past 50 years of campaign promises and electoral politics. You are being strung along like a puppet.

[AmericanSpartan]

So, you're celebrating being unprincipled and morally inferior? Lol...



Well done. Keep proving your worth, Boobus.

So your are celebrating losing? Well I guess you will be celebrating alot then.

Hate to break it to your but being "moral" and "principled" does not translate into power, and without power you can not advance your agenda.

[AmericanSpartan]

No it isn't. I've only seen it on the internet and that's mostly on here and in comment sections. I think it's safe to say that the general public has no idea what the alt-right is and have probably never heard the word "cuckservative."

No, its been all over, from Rush, to CNN, To Bill Mahr.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...ve&tbm=vid

[AmericanSpartan]

My evidence for this claim is the past 50 years of campaign promises and electoral politics. You are being strung along like a puppet.

Yeah thank God people give up if things to not improve over night.

I mean if people had your view would still have slavery, the Transcontinental Railroad would not have been built, and many other great feats, actions and deeds would not be accomplished.

[dannno]

I fondly remember the days when Stefan was still talking about the gun in the room. That time, he would say that in situations like this, you should try to look at where the gun in the room is and try to remove it instead of bringing in more guns into the situation. He would have argued that if immigrants are taking welfare and destroying the country, your efforts as a voluntarist should be focused on trying to take away the welfare instead of pointing more guns at people. At that time, he was so principled that even with Ron Paul and his valiant effort to occupy govt and roll back the excesses of govt and spread the message of liberty wasn't even good enough for him.

Now he supports pointing government guns at people, supports voting and sadly is a big advocate of Donald "eminent domain" Trump.

He has not advocated voting for Donald Trump once, ever..

As far as more guns, his argument here is that there is less violence and less gun pointing by closing the border and stopping immigration than there would be by letting them in and letting them coerce the public out of their resources, especially when you consider that they will likely vote to take away more. As I've said, I buy that argument when it comes to protecting the border. I have a harder time with it once you start talking about deporting millions of people. I think that is going overboard and becomes very risky when considering our rights as a whole and what type of government agency would be carrying these things out.

[AmericanSpartan]

'He has not advocated voting for Donald Trump once, ever..

As far as more guns, his argument here is that there is less violence and less gun pointing by closing the border and stopping immigration than there would be by letting them in and letting them coerce the public out of their resources, especially when you consider that they will likely vote to take away more.

"But pick the lesser of two evils is still evil because Muh principals"

How can they not understand things will be even worse if they are not turned away/sent back?

[Tywysog Cymru]

No, its been all over, from Rush, to CNN, To Bill Mahr.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...ve&tbm=vid

I've never heard a human voice outside of YouTube say that word.

I mean if people had your view would still have slavery,

No, if people had your view slavery would have lasted longer.

[dannno]

The funny thing is: If Trump is elected, immigration policy won't change at all. He's just playing you morons like he plays everyone else.

This is a totally valid point. Molyneux has not in fact done much at all to discuss Donald Trump's other statements and beliefs on things like the nuclear triad, killing terrorist's families and the possibility of a vast police state that could occur from his anti-immigrant proposals which could go far beyond affecting illegal immigrants, or even those with latino heritage. He hasn't had any discussion on his possible motivations for running such as possibly running to help get Hillary elected or whatever they might be. But he also hasn't every advocated voting for the guy... but I do wish he would have the discussions to inform his viewers and give them a more balanced view.

He has used Trumps talking points to create a discussion that he thinks needs to be had on an issue he finds very important. Of course I would totally prefer to get rid of the welfare state over starting an expansive anti-immigrant policy - but I think from a political will standpoint, he doesn't think the welfare portion is attainable at this time and it will only become worse as we bring in more immigrants so he sees these issues as totally connected.

[AmericanSpartan]

I've never heard a human voice outside of YouTube say that word.

Well I have never met a transgender person, so they must not exist.

No, if people had your view slavery would have lasted longer.

Really? Well I oppose slavery as it retarded technological innovation and suppressed wages aside from it be evil.

But hey when you have nothing, just lie.

[cajuncocoa]

Well when your principals start win, then you get to be taken seriously.

You clearly need to go back, watch the last half of the video again, think about for 5 mins, then watch again it.

I know this is beside the point (maybe) but many of us have noticed your atrocious language skills and you've made the excuse that you're using speech-to-text software because you're awfully busy multi-tasking -- posting here while running several businesses at the same time.

As you should be, the Establishment is the enemy, and Cuckservatives are scum


Who did you support? If they were insiders/Neo Cons/Cucks you should have know better.

I find it difficult to believe that any speech-to-text software would recognize the word highlighted above, yet there it is -- not even misspelled. It's a little suspicious.

[AmericanSpartan]

This is a totally valid point. Molyneux has not in fact done much at all to discuss Donald Trump's other statements and beliefs on things like the nuclear triad, killing terrorist's families and the possibility of a vast police state that could occur from his anti-immigrant proposals which could go far beyond affecting illegal immigrants, or even those with latino heritage. He hasn't had any discussion on his possible motivations for running such as possibly running to help get Hillary elected or whatever they might be. But he also hasn't every advocated voting for the guy... but I do wish he would have the discussions to inform his viewers and give them a more balanced view.

He has used Trumps talking points to create a discussion that he thinks needs to be had on an issue he finds very important. Of course I would totally prefer to get rid of the welfare state over starting an expansive anti-immigrant policy - but I think from a political will standpoint, he doesn't think the welfare portion is attainable at this time and it will only become worse as we bring in more immigrants so he sees these issues as totally connected.

He understand you can not end the welfare state while importing more users/supporters any more then you bail out a ship that is taking in water at a rate greater then it is being bailed out.

Molyneux does not pull the whole "well one idea is not a bad as the other but it is still bad so lets not talk about or do it because "NAP". Molyneux is a problem solver he understand the real world and what is possible.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Well I have never met a transgender person, so they must not exist.

You've never met one because they are not common, not because they don't exist. The word "cuckservative" is not part of the common vernacular and as such many, if not most, Americans are unaware of its existence.

Really? Well I oppose slavery as it retarded technological innovation and suppressed wages aside from it be evil.

But hey when you have nothing, just lie.

Your views on race make me think that if you had lived 200 years ago you would have supported slavery.

[cajuncocoa]

No it isn't. I've only seen it on the internet and that's mostly on here and in comment sections. I think it's safe to say that the general public has no idea what the alt-right is and have probably never heard the word "cuckservative."

I had no idea what the alt-right was either until I saw someone used it here about 5 or 6 weeks ago. When I Googled it, I saw some of the most sexist and racist stuff I'd seen in a long time. It's not immigrants we should be watching for....it's these alt-right people. They're the ones we should be wary of, and making sure they don't get a foothold our political system.

Here's something to get you started if you've never heard of it before.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Neoreactionary_movement

Also, Google the terms on this diagram....pretty scary stuff IMO.