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Thread: Harry Browne: The Immigration Scam

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    No, logic and reason as well as the law of supply and demand.
    Where did Dr. "logic and reason as well as the law of supply and demand" get his degree in economics?

    What are his publications?

    Oh, you mean you haven't actually studied economics at all: have never actually read a book by any economist?

    Yes, as I expected.

    FFS, you actually posted a Breitbart article as a source of your economic education - kind of says it all.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    No, logic and reason as well as the law of supply and demand. Notice how you do not touch the subject of immigration being at an all time high and wages either being stagnate or falling.
    Car sales are at an all time high, therefore the economy is in good shape.

    Does that statement make sense to you? Or does correlation not imply causation?

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Where did Dr. "logic and reason as well as the law of supply and demand" get his degree in economics?

    What are his publications?

    Oh, you mean you haven't actually studied economics at all: have never actually read a book by any economist?

    Yes, as I expected.

    FFS, you actually posted a Breitbart article as a source of your economic education - kind of says it all.

    So you are stalling, how fitting. Please tell the American worker their are not experiencing what they are experiencing.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Car sales are at an all time high, therefore the economy is in good shape.

    Does that statement make sense to you? Or does correlation not imply causation?
    No, that just prove that credit is easy to get
    Last edited by AmericanSpartan; 11-28-2015 at 09:20 PM.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    Please tell the American worker their are not experiencing what they are experiencing.
    The American worker is experiencing stagnating real wages.

    No one's disputing that.

    The question is why.

    And the answer is the government's interference in the market, not immigrants.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The American worker is experiencing stagnating real wages.

    No one's disputing that.

    The question is why.

    And the answer is the government's interference in the market, not immigrants.

    Tell that to tradesmen to STEM workers.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    Tell that to tradesmen to STEM workers.
    The market economy is about competition; there are winners and losers. That's how we advance; the more efficient replace the less efficient.

    Q. Do you oppose a free labor market domestically?

    For instance, if some Floridians were moving to Georgia and putting the natives out of work, would you want the government to intervene to protect the latter's jobs?

    If not, why?

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The market economy is about competition; there are winners and losers. That's how we advance; the more efficient replace the less efficient.
    You can not competet against people that will undercut you wages if you want a 1st world stranded of living.

    Q. Do you oppose a free labor market domestically?

    For instance, if some Floridians were moving to Georgia and putting the natives out of work, would you want the government to intervene to protect the latter's jobs?

    If not, why?
    No, I do not. Why? Because America is for Americans, competition here is backed with a finite amount of workers to compete with.

    If we open our border and allow the workers of the world to flood in they will suppress the value of our labor, our wage, increase the cost of living, as well burden us with tax payer funded services they will use. Never mind the skewing of elections.

    That is why. Because the American worker gets hosed. The American Voter gets hosed. The American nation and culture get hosed.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    You can not competet against people that will undercut you wages if you want a 1st world stranded of living.
    So, undercutting your competitor's prices is unfair competition?

    No, I do not. Why? Because America is for Americans
    International labor competition = some Americans harmed (e.g. those who lose jobs), while others benefit (e.g. consumers).

    Domestic labor competition = some Americans harmed (e.g. those who lose jobs), while others benefit (e.g. consumers).

    In both cases, some Americans are harmed, and some benefit.

    So what's the difference in your view?

    On another note, do you also oppose free trade, since it will result in some Americans losing their jobs?

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    You can not competet against people that will undercut you wages if you want a 1st world stranded of living.



    No, I do not. Why? Because America is for Americans, competition here is backed with a finite amount of workers to compete with.

    If we open our border and allow the workers of the world to flood in they will suppress the value of our labor, our wage, increase the cost of living, as well burden us with tax payer funded services they will use. Never mind the skewing of elections.

    That is why. Because the American worker gets hosed. The American Voter gets hosed. The American nation and culture get hosed.
    Man...why are you here? Your closed market unionism is something that would fit you nicely in the modern Democrat party. You don't advocate free markets, liberty, or anything that would cause you to support even a libertarian type Republican. I told you before, this is just not the website for you.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    So self preservation and self defense are not a feature/prerequisite of Liberty?
    Why are you referring to the nation or the government as "self"? Its not only indicative of your collectivism, it's kind of pathologically weird.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    Q. Do you oppose a free labor market domestically?

    For instance, if some Floridians were moving to Georgia and putting the natives out of work, would you want the government to intervene to protect the latter's jobs?

    If not, why?
    Excellent question.

    But I don't think you'll get an informed answer. He might even say that the inferior races of Florida must be deported to Georgia.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    What a beautiful picture, everyone wants freedom.
    There are fringe benefits. An Indian immigrant told me that he could sleep for an hour each way on his daily commute in India. Standing up, because it was so crowded you couldn't fall over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    I'm curious as to which planks in the OP that you think that Harry would have conceded due to what's transpired in the last fourteen years. From my perspective, the crux of his piece seems to be:

    He put it upfront; first. Everything else seems to be calming talk to put irrational fears about jobs and culture to rest. If the power to deal with the preservation of jobs and culture is to be ceded to government mandate, then what does it say about the occupational skills of the United Statsian workforce and its culture that they require government to protect it.

    His article was published on 05SEP2001 - 6 days prior to 9/11. At that point, the TSA didn't exist. The Patriot Act was but a dystopian nightmare that would wake Harry up at night - and he would write to warn us about embracing it. I personally think that the events of the past 14 years would have made him more resolute in his positions.
    Harry Browne is one of the good ones. He wouldn't have changed his mind on any of the government violations of liberties or the Bill of Rights. He might have modified his position on the real world effects of massive immigration, such as the expansion of the welfare state, the ballooning Federal debt, the actions of the Fed, dwindling resources and the destruction of the middle class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Lew hasn't changed. He's always been a Roman Catholic culture warrior like Bill O'Reilly.
    Let's not be collectivist. All Catholics are not like that. But weren't the Kennedys instrumental in expanding immigration? And the Pope would also be in that camp wouldn't he? Is O'Really against immigration? I'm not very familiar with him other than his neoconservative leaning, but that would make him favorable to more immigration, like Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So, undercutting your competitor's prices is unfair competition?
    Some what, I mean can you compete against slave labor?

    International labor competition = some Americans harmed (e.g. those who lose jobs), while others benefit (e.g. consumers).

    Domestic labor competition = some Americans harmed (e.g. those who lose jobs), while others benefit (e.g. consumers).
    Yeah as with the American labor market their is a smaller number of competitors. With the rest of the world their is a larger number of people who will do more and more for less and less, while you have set costs which are higher then theirs.

    In both cases, some Americans are harmed, and some benefit.

    So what's the difference in your view?
    Yes but the wealth stays in the nation, as do the benefits. The other difference is we are not lifting up the world, we are only being reduced to the lowest common denominator.



    On another note, do you also oppose free trade, since it will result in some Americans losing their jobs?
    When has "free trade" resulted in anything other the Americans losing their jobs? We have lost how many to China, and for what? What has it done that we could not do ourselves?

    NAFTA has been a disaster, and if not stopped TPPP will be even worse. Its time to come to a understanding. Free Trade does not Benefit the United States, its industry, or its Working/Middle Class.

    Only a handle full of Billionaire Globalists.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Man...why are you here? Your closed market unionism is something that would fit you nicely in the modern Democrat party. You don't advocate free markets, liberty, or anything that would cause you to support even a libertarian type Republican. I told you before, this is just not the website for you.
    No I do not see any valid reason why selling out my nation to save a few bucks is worth it.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Why are you referring to the nation or the government as "self"? Its not only indicative of your collectivism, it's kind of pathologically weird.
    Way to miss the point by miles. Now answer the the question. Is preservation and defense are not a feature/prerequisite of Liberty?

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    There are fringe benefits. An Indian immigrant told me that he could sleep for an hour each way on his daily commute in India. Standing up, because it was so crowded you couldn't fall over.
    I believe him. I will say it must be great to go on their and just rip sick gas, piss off hundred of people, LOL.


    Harry Browne is one of the good ones. He wouldn't have changed his mind on any of the government violations of liberties or the Bill of Rights. He might have modified his position on the real world effects of massive immigration, such as the expansion of the welfare state, the ballooning Federal debt, the actions of the Fed, dwindling resources and the destruction of the middle class.
    I could have told him the outcome a decade ago and saved us some time and prevented a great deal of damage.


    Let's not be collectivist. All Catholics are not like that. But weren't the Kennedys instrumental in expanding immigration? And the Pope would also be in that camp wouldn't he?
    They played a part.

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net...n-act-of-1965/

    http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/ReplyHistory-2.htm

    Nothing but facts, let those who will be offended be offended.


    Is O'Really against immigration? I'm not very familiar with him other than his neoconservative leaning, but that would make him favorable to more immigration, like Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham.
    He is in favor of mass legal immigration, can not understand how harmful it is.

    Those Neo Cons as the entire faction are being purged, as they should be. Rubio is betting all or nothing on the White House and Graham has pissed off the his base back home so bad he will be unseated....

  21. #78
    Why is immigration all of a sudden one of the most important political issues in 2015? The rate of immigration from Mexico has actually been decreasing.
    Stop believing stupid things

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    Why is immigration all of a sudden one of the most important political issues in 2015? The rate of immigration from Mexico has actually been decreasing.
    Because Teh Newz made Trump viable.......

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    Why is immigration all of a sudden one of the most important political issues in 2015? The rate of immigration from Mexico has actually been decreasing.
    It is not just decreasing but is negative- more leaving than coming. But you still have to scare people and promise you will protect them with tougher regulations.

    Because the Republican candidates don't have anything else they can think of to run on. They all agree they are for big military and foreign intervention. The economy? Doing pretty decent. Budget? The agreement took that off the table until after the election. Now they don't have to make any decisions on that issue for a while. Obama? Leaving office anyways. Obamacare? People getting used to it now. Old news. Gay marriage? Courts took care of that. Abortion? Too controversial- preferring incremental moves on that now anyways- whittle away at what is and isn't allowed.

    Since illegal immigrants don't vote you don't have to worry as much about a group of voters opposing your position- blaming others is always a safe move.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-29-2015 at 02:56 PM.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanSpartan View Post
    No, my side has won the argument in real life, now we are just consolidating our gains and putting plans into action.

    No you have not refuted anything, you just name call and run away. You hold self preservation and defense of Liberty in contempt as it destroy your egalitarian world view.

    Keep shouting, that is all your side can do, We are winning and will continue to win. The border will be secured, The illegals deported, Birthright ciztenship for be changed, immigration reduced in size and origin, and we will secure the blessings of Liberty for ourselves and posterity.
    Factually untrue. The socialists have certainly won most political arguments(the "Hearts and Minds" of Boobus Americanus), but every generation of socialists and their policies reinforces the conclusions Mises (and Rothbard) came to in his analysis of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    Why is immigration all of a sudden one of the most important political issues in 2015? The rate of immigration from Mexico has actually been decreasing.
    Because immigration is the 9/11 of this election cycle. The Republican party is being drummed up for another war. This time it's against brown people from another country.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Because immigration is the 9/11 of this election cycle. The Republican party is being drummed up for another war. This time it's against brown people from another country.
    Sola being a useful idiot for the globalists again. lol
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  28. #84

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Sola being a useful idiot for the globalists again. lol
    Ron Paul agrees with Sola.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

    The 12-term Texas congressman spent the better part of a 25-minute address thinking aloud about the thorny subject. He talked about how Americans are more accepting of outsiders when the economy is good, but when trouble looms there is a search for scapegoats.

    "I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state," Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.

    "Now there's a lot of antagonism and resentment turned just automatically on immigrants," he continued. "You say, no not immigrants, it's just illegal immigrants. I do believe in legal immigration. I want to have a provision to obey those laws. You have to understand this in the context of the economy."

    Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Sola being a useful idiot for the globalists again. lol
    Just who is being the useful idiot? Step back and look at the hysteria. It doesn't remind you of the lead up to the Iraq war?

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    Why is immigration all of a sudden one of the most important political issues in 2015? The rate of immigration from Mexico has actually been decreasing.
    Because immigration is the issue that decides all others. If we do not reduce it (including legal) well we are going to be out voted in our nation by imported ringers.

    You do understand people come from nations other the Mexico, right? So that is red herring.

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    It is not just decreasing but is negative- more leaving than coming. But you still have to scare people and promise you will protect them with tougher regulations.

    Because the Republican candidates don't have anything else they can think of to run on. They all agree they are for big military and foreign intervention. The economy? Doing pretty decent. Budget? The agreement took that off the table until after the election. Now they don't have to make any decisions on that issue for a while. Obama? Leaving office anyways. Obamacare? People getting used to it now. Old news. Gay marriage? Courts took care of that. Abortion? Too controversial- preferring incremental moves on that now anyways- whittle away at what is and isn't allowed.

    Since illegal immigrants don't vote you don't have to worry as much about a group of voters opposing your position- blaming others is always a safe move.
    Yeah who would have thought standing up for the interests of the American people would make you popular with them?

    We have been over this, they still effect elections, local, state, and Federal as well as the number of house seats. Your denial does not change this fact.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Factually untrue. The socialists have certainly won most political arguments(the "Hearts and Minds" of Boobus Americanus), but every generation of socialists and their policies reinforces the conclusions Mises (and Rothbard) came to in his analysis of it.
    Have you seen the polls? The American people support by large margins immigration reduction.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Well Ron Paul is not God, he can be and in this case is very, very wrong. You are worse then the Neo Cons that have turned Reagan into the 2nd coming.

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